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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
 Posted - 03/05/2012 : 11:23:40 PM
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| I've been trying to read up more on the new Lion bus, it looks like it could very well give the C2 some competition. The C2 was the first bus that really was different, now Lion came in. I don't really know much about the Lion bus, but I have read that there is little to no body maintenance on it. If that is true, it could catch the attention of a lot of schools, especially up North, but even then, no need to repair body panels, no need to worry about paint and rust, that's a dream come true for any bus buyer. What is everyone's opinion on it versus the C2? |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 02:29:25 AM
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Haven't had the chance to get my hands on a Lion yet, but from what I'm hearing it has a lot of potential IF people can get past the initial cost. That is going to be the biggest barrier...too many people in this business dont want to look at lifetime-cost, they only care about startup-cost.
C2 wins by default, as long as you dont mind paying for failed expensive items such as bulkhead modules, smartswitches, FET's, expansion modules, AMU's. Wonder how much those components will cost for a Lion? LOL |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 03/06/2012 02:30:46 AM |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 04:04:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
C2 wins by default, as long as you dont mind paying for failed expensive items such as bulkhead modules, smartswitches, FET's, expansion modules, AMU's. Wonder how much those components will cost for a Lion? LOL
No multiplex! 
Having demo'd the Lion Bus to a number of customers in NY, the response has been excellent. Not only is the body innovative, Spartan builds a GREAT chassis. Rides very similar to a transit/coach chassis.
I'll leave it at that, as I'm going to pick up a Lion Bus right now.  I'll grab some pics for later and maybe a video! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 04:57:49 AM
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No multiplex = the reason the bus is a good idea! Call me old fashion, but when I turn on, say, the interior light switch, I feel no need for a computer to have any roll in activating that feature.
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Tatum
Top Member
United States
606 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 07:52:20 AM
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| For me, the Spartan chassis is the icing on the cake! |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 09:36:36 AM
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Multiplex can be a nice thing when it works... but school buses are a lot different than cars.
Gets expensive replacing computers and modules when they are out of warranty. |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2012 : 10:57:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
C2 wins by default, as long as you dont mind paying for failed expensive items such as bulkhead modules, smartswitches, FET's, expansion modules, AMU's. Wonder how much those components will cost for a Lion? LOL
No multiplex!
Having demo'd the Lion Bus to a number of customers in NY, the response has been excellent. Not only is the body innovative, Spartan builds a GREAT chassis. Rides very similar to a transit/coach chassis.
I'll leave it at that, as I'm going to pick up a Lion Bus right now. I'll grab some pics for later and maybe a video!
Cool to hear this kind of feedback! We haven't really had a successfu new bus in a long time, this one seems to be doing great from the start! Pics are a must, a video would just be icing on the cake! |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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JustinB
Advanced Member
United States
490 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2012 : 2:08:38 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Haven't had the chance to get my hands on a Lion yet, but from what I'm hearing it has a lot of potential IF people can get past the initial cost. That is going to be the biggest barrier...too many people in this business dont want to look at lifetime-cost, they only care about startup-cost.
C2 wins by default, as long as you dont mind paying for failed expensive items such as bulkhead modules, smartswitches, FET's, expansion modules, AMU's. Wonder how much those components will cost for a Lion? LOL
So:
- How many FETs have you bought seperate of modules?
- How many smart siwtches have you bought?
- Analog Switches?
- Analog Relays?
Time spent chasing circuits between analog swotches, fuses and relays?
PS If you have a bus with an EGR Valve, it has the same J1939 protocol "multiplex". That's been what, 10 years? Welcome to the double-oughts. |
I may not know the answer but I can usually find who does. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 02:44:06 AM
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Good point about the FETs, have bought a few modules. Maybe 20 switches (mostly door) in 5 years.
Didn't really have trouble with analog switches, the large rockers made by Carling sometimes lost a setting, maybe 20 in 15 years for us. The pre 1995 small square Carlings were damn near indestructable!
Relays, such as the lil black cubes by Bosch, I can recall 3 being bad, but there could well have been more I've forgotten.
Diagnostics weren't much trouble for me. Power to the fuse? From the fuse? To the switch? From the switch? At the user? Look longer to loosten the two screws and flip down the panel than it did to have my answers to the first 4 questions! |
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bbarr
Active Member
22 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 05:02:30 AM
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| The problem with the multi-plex systems being employed in most buses today is that they are truck based systems being used in a school bus. The application does not match the use, but since Navistar and Freightliner have their own systems they get pushed downhill to IC and Thomas. The advantage of using multi-plexing is that you can add additional electrical based options without an increase in hardware. With more and more being pushed into the bus electrically (cameras, child checks, etc) the ability to cut down wire and connections become more critical. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 06:36:26 AM
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I really think it would work a lot better if common sense had been applied from the start. Let's not put "weatherproof" connectors under a bus that runs in salt and mag-chloride. That is an invitation for corrosion, resistance, trouble. Some are unavoidable, but at least in the early days there was excessive use of such plugs. Didn't make a lot of buddies using that system!
Then comes the guys on the line pulling wires as freakin tight as they can to save a buck. That isn't limited to mulitplexed systems though, it's an industry-wide problem.
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2012 : 10:27:19 AM
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The issue isn't so much that the systems used were "truck" based as much as the number of options and, more importantly, the number of combinations of options used on a school bus vs. a truck was underestimated. It is very difficult to lay out every possible eventual combo ahead of time. Especially if you are an engineer way down the chain in the development process. Also, I would guess there were people above saying "Do we really NEED this or that". The answer is probably "not often but yes". The whole estimate of what would be needed from system capability to training Nd support once implemented was underestimated, IMO.
The consequence was systems introduced that were max'd to capacity, then components added in wrong locations because they were added last minute with little planning, and finally execution in production suffered. Now that is the OEM side of it. There is a customer side too. Training needs to be kept up (and it needs to be offered, also an OEM responsibility). On the whole, the complexity of implementing such a change in the industry was grossly underestimated. The result is stumbling out of the block for everyone.
One other industry thing I would point to is much of what is added to electrical systems relates to comfort and/or items that are attempting to solve issues with a silver bullet. AC and radios are much more common today than in the past. Not highly complex but in a market as competitive as the school bus market cost savings when adding options always comes into play quality suffers as a result and the sad thing is I'm not sure it's been demonstrated that people will pay for better quality on a consistent basis. We have child check systems to prevent riders left on a bus. I'm sorry, but when it is your job to transport kids, it's your job to make sure they're all off at the end of the day. You shouldn't require an alarm to remind you. Maybe not a popular opinion but it's common sense. In addition, there are probably 1/2 a dozen ways to wire one of those alarms. Everyone wants some sort of different arming or different alarm, or sequence of alarms.. How about warning lamp systems. There are probably 15 - 20 different methods in the US and Canada to sequence or non-sequence (those in the know will get that comment) warning lamp systems.
I once heard a guy complain that every bus he bought was the same. Why couldn't we get it right year after year? I had to show him that in the previous 5 years the state basic specification had changed 3 times. This meant new options and new combinations of options each time. Also, federal mandates came into play. Plus he ordered 3 - 5 buses a year. This is in amongst the 13,000 built for all 50 states that pretty much all have different speciifications. Compare this to the Honda Civic. You get maybe 3 trim levels on a Civic and when you buy the Sport package, you're getting the sunroof whether you want it or not. The bus business doesn't work that way at all or at least very often! Not that we should be allowed to make mistakes but there are reasons other than gross incompetence and penny pinching in play that individuals don't always consider.
Sorry to ramble on, I would guess that the systems are much better coming out today (not perfect but MUCH improved) but there is a 5 - 7 year legacy problem everyone deals with. |
Edited by - JRob on 03/08/2012 11:07:33 AM |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2012 : 4:56:37 PM
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| Of the 68 IC-CE buses purchased since 2006, multiplexing has not been an issue. I would say that it has been one of the CE strong points along with brakes, drive train, and steering/suspension. Close to zero instances of problems into their 6th year on those items. That's not to say I don't have my issues...but hey, that's part of why we love doing this, right? |
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bbvision12
Active Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 03/12/2012 : 2:08:47 PM
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In terms of appearance, the Lion Bus wins. Nice to see something driving that looks different than some form of semi.
It also seems that the Lion Bus has a better body in terms of maintenance.
I agree with the cost barrier, as well.
Overall, the Lion Bus wins, if it can make it into the already well-defined industry.
It also hasn't been used for a long time, so we are just going to have to wait to see how it actually lasts out in the field!  |
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vbacon
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2012 : 07:36:55 AM
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| Is the Lion Bus on NY State Contract yet? I believe that from the literature that I have read on this bus, it will be an excellent bus. |
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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 06:36:31 AM
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I saw someone said they read there is little to no body maintenance on the Lion bus. There is little to no body/chassis/engine/transmission maintenance on a Thomas. There...now you've read it about Thomas. Here are my observations from everyone's posts:
looks like it could
don't really know
I have read
If that is true
from what I'm hearing
lot of potential IF
this one seems to be
the Lion Bus wins, if
I believe
It also seems
Only one way to say for sure if it's a great bus......like the C2! |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 09:13:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by C24U
I saw someone said they read there is little to no body maintenance on the Lion bus. There is little to no body/chassis/engine/transmission maintenance on a Thomas. There...now you've read it about Thomas. Here are my observations from everyone's posts:
looks like it could
don't really know
I have read
If that is true
from what I'm hearing
lot of potential IF
this one seems to be
the Lion Bus wins, if
I believe
It also seems
Only one way to say for sure if it's a great bus......like the C2!
Exactly what qualifications do you have to make the comment that Thomas's require little to no maintenance on the body/chassis/engine/transmission? |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 09:44:36 AM
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| Actually, that was a joke. If I, myself, write that "the Blue Bird is the number one bus", then anyone who reads it can say that they read that "the Blue Bird is the number one bus." Someone said they read "there is little to no body maintenance on the Lion bus". I'm sure that wasn't written by Consumer Reports. |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 11:33:41 AM
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So you're saying it is wrong for Lion to say that composite body panels w/ gel coat finish (so no paint), poly skirts (yellow all the way through, no touch up for scratches), composite-skinned doors with stainless hinges, poly stepwell, and anti-acid poly battery box require little to no body maintenance?
I see you're from Ohio. Maybe Columbus area isn't as corrosive on a bus, but surely your peers in northern Ohio would tend to agree with what Lion has to say about the materials they use requiring little to no maintenance compared to traditional buses. |
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Dead__Horse
New Member
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 2:56:07 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by C24U
Only one way to say for sure if it's a great bus......like the C2!
Jay,
Thank you for your continued interest, but you can stop beating me now.
Sincerely,
The Dead Horse |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/16/2012 : 4:24:25 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Dead__Horse
quote:
Originally posted by C24U
Only one way to say for sure if it's a great bus......like the C2!
Jay,
Thank you for your continued interest, but you can stop beating me now.
Sincerely,
The Dead Horse
What's up dead horse!? haha.
Anyhow, I am really liking this bus a lot. I can't wait until I can check one out in person, the chassis is good, everything about it seems really good. I love the C2, but this bus has a very good chance of changing the market for the folks up North.
It might be a dumb idea, but I thought I might as well start up the Lion Bus fan group on Facebook. I really find it cool that a new company comes up with such a strong looking future while I am young, I can grow up and see what this company evolves into, unlike the other companies that have been around or have come and gone before I was born. Join up if you would like, feel free to discuss any news and photos aside from Lion's own Facebook page.
http://www.facebook.com/groups/274580605950901/#!/groups/274580605950901/ |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Edited by - 08BBVision on 03/16/2012 5:38:59 PM |
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Topic |
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Lion Bus or C2?
