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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
 Posted - 01/27/2012 : 11:04:48 PM
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I am certain that this has been discussed time and time again, but I would like to know who you guys honestly thing is the best School Bus manufacturer of all types of bus. I don't want to know opinion based on what you drive, but rather your opinion based on experience with each type, which manufacturer's bus drives the best, has the least problems, lasts the longest, all that, then you can base it based off of style, driver and passenger comfort and all that.
For me, its a tossup between all three, Thomas, Blue Bird, and IC. They all our in my district's fleet, and they have all lasted a long time. The Visions have had their share of problems, but just because they were first of the 2008s and still working out the bugs. I have had no experience with the C2, there is only one in our fleet and again, it is the first year they came out. Our fleet is mostly comprised of IC buses, which seems to be the choice of the TD strictly based on cost. What do you guys think? |
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RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2012 : 11:54:28 PM
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They all have their quirks. Biggest thing each fleet needs to do is assess their fleet purchasing is the reliability of the equipment, long term durability, dealer support, warranties, parts availability/pricing, fuel mileage, and total lifecycle cost. Buying off of initial purchase price is a dangerous practice in many instances, as the low upfront price isn't always the best deal long term.
There are other criteria to consider too, but those points above in my experience are quite important.
Quite frankly, I think different areas of the country have different brands and types of buses that may meet their particular needs. For example, a customer in one state may have a better experience buying brand X than a customer in another state. Could be because of the dealer. Could be because of the climate. Too many variables to name one bus the best for every situation. |
Edited by - RichBusman on 01/27/2012 11:55:59 PM |
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member
354 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 11:12:55 AM
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| You summed it up well Rich. I dont think any bus is any better than the other and they all have their pros and cons. For example, the local bus shop here dispises IC but the neiboring county is very pleased with them. |
"Hardybusman" |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/28/2012 : 12:22:17 PM
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| That is very true, Rich. I have had a conversation about why they go for the lowest price, they think that they are getting the best of their money with the IC purchases, but I don't. A year after the purchase the hoods are already faded and they have had much engine trouble, sure they look real nice when they are new, but after being used they run into a lot of problems. We used to have 3 Thomas FS-65 buses that are the 2002 model year, I think, and we still have two of them since one was used on a trade for the IC, they have lasted the longest out of all of their purchases next to Blue Bird. To me it seems as they are just going based off of price and personal preference. We have one C2 that has only had problems with the Mercedes engine, nothing else, our Visions were the same, computer problems in the engine. Honestly, based from what I have seen with the buses at school, Blue Bird and Thomas are more worth it than the IC (Because they are cheaper) buses. I started off riding a Blue Bird AAFE in Kindergarten, it was an old one, the next year they got a new one to replace it. Almost 14 years later that same AAFE is still running perfectly. |
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bbvision12
Active Member
43 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2012 : 2:08:25 PM
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| Personally, I like the Lion Bus and IC. As Rich said though, no bus is perfect, and there are different demands in different regions. Neighboring schools love their EFs, but ours had the steering wheels fall off, and had many components break, while our school had excellent ICs and they had engine problems. |
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78fordwayne
Top Member
USA
2868 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 08:48:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by truck451
Crown
Gillig
Blue Bird up until the 2000's
Carpenter up until the 1990's
Thomas if they never had the major electrical problems
and this knowledge is based on.... ??? |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 1:01:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by truck451
Carpenter up until the 1990's
That's all I needed to see. Prior to the 80s MAYBE. |
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Crown
Senior Member
89 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 2:26:56 PM
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70's & 80's CROWN Buses
Based on the fact that they can easily run 30+ years. Unfortunately, they are polluters. |
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AllAmerican
Active Member
17 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 3:48:02 PM
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From 2002 until 2006, we bought new IC buses, and they had problems.
In 2007 and 2008, we bought new Thomas buses, and they had problems.
In 2009, we bought new Blue Birds, and guess what, they had problems.
We have not purchased new buses since 2009, and have bought used Blue Bird buses on International and Freightliner chassis for the last 2 years....and thay had problems. |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 4:59:03 PM
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| Carpenter did have great buses, the ones we had seemed to have lasted forever, and we still have a Crown Classic running around. |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 5:14:34 PM
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I do have another question that I didn't want to start a thread for. Why, on some IC buses, is the logo on the roof set back above the first window while others are above the door and driver window? Here are some examples, credit for the photos goes to www.schoolbusland.com. I am also wondering why the different ways to paint the white roof.
Set forward logo.
Set Back logo.
Roof one.
Roof two
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 5:53:21 PM
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Set-back logos are usually a preparation for numbers to be placed above the door and driver's window. This is a common spec in Michigan (pretty much required) and Maryland. A good number of Ohio buses seem to have numbers above the door as well. Many buses spec'd by Midwest Transit will have the logos set back because they could be sold in Michigan, Illinois, or wherever, so it helps to have a common set of specs that will meet the most stringent of the surrounding states. The same practice is common for Blue Birds.
(Thomas, as you probably know, has all of their logos set back.)
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Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 5:56:12 PM
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| Ok, cool, thanks for the explanation on that, I have been wondering that for a while. Our fleet has one like that that was bought used, we don't number ours like that, but I think it was purchased from Midwest Bus Sales. |
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08 Thomas EF
Top Member
533 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 7:49:10 PM
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In terms of reliability, in the old days, I think it really depended on the individual bus, or even a model year. We had a '91 TC and a '92 TC, both were in great shape, ran beautifully until they were retired (the '92 had around 250k by the time it was left and ran strong), and were very reliable.
The '97s were reliable enough, but one of them was falling apart by the time it was retired last year. It was old and tired, but not as tired as its twin that would do about 20 on a hill that any other bus could easily do 35 on.
The '01 and '02 TCs we have had horrendous beginnings (mainly electrical problems, and in the '01's case, the bad fuel pump failure repeatedly), but have been behaving for the past year or two.
As far as the EFs go, two of them have had a lot of downtime, one a normal amount, and one very little. Two of our 6 '01 AmTran FEs (one batch) were down all the time, but one of them blew a head gasket shortly after being placed into sparehood and the other is still doing well as a spare. The other AmTrans are very solid in terms of reliability. Our mechanic drives one on a route and loves it.
I really like how IC designs their products, for the most part. I think the Futura CE was a nice update, improving the windshield, looks, interior, etc. significantly but not being over the top like a C2.... Decent body, too bad it has those dreaded International engines. Then there's the Vision, grossly out of date IMO. It appears as though IC has the best driver ergonomics. I felt very much at home sitting behind late '90s AmTran REs and FEs, but the TCs felt awkward.
Older 'Birds were very solid, new 'Birds... times have changed.
I've always thought that Thomas was a medium. Decent design, decent quality and reliability. I recently rode an '09 EF down a very bumpy road and no squeaks/rattles, but a '10 Vision likes to remind you that you are inside a huge metal bucket of bolts. The Spectal (I believe) windows are the worst part.
Our EFs have had many electrical issues. I think all of them have had warning light failures at one point or another. One's ECU shorted out and lost data (this was information from the driver, not sure on the technicalities), one had a control panel fire.... |
Edited by - 08 Thomas EF on 01/31/2012 7:50:11 PM |
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tylerofficer
Active Member
35 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2012 : 10:05:02 PM
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| You have made some great points. The Vision might be out of date, but honestly I love that they have kept the old body/classic styling. I really like the Vision, unlike many people. Our '08s run really well after all of the electrical bugs were worked out, and we have three AAFE's that run like a charm. I have always loved Thomas's design, especially the C2, they weren't afraid to step out of the box, but the FS-65 was my favorite, and has proven reliable to our fleet. IC has great designs as well, these days I cannot really pick a favorite between the three, the new Blue Birds are alright, haven't gotten a chance to be in one as our District isn't really big on transit buses (The 3 AAFE's are driver preferences). As everyone has basically stated, they all have their problems, it all really depends on price and preference these days. |
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ICCEC2
New Member
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 02/15/2012 : 10:56:38 PM
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| I was talking to my TD the other day, I asked why the school went all with IC buses. Basically it is the dealer network that gets them and the overall value of the bus. It's easier to take the bus to one dealer in town, such as International, and they can service the body, chassis, and engine all in one location. I tend to agree with that logic, it makes sense. I have always been a Blue Bird fan, but IC has a really nice program going on with their buses. |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2012 : 8:33:32 PM
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| On another note, what's your opinion on the best transit manufacturer? I've never been around anything but Blue Bird FEs, but I looked at an IC RE and the quality just doesn't seem as good. How are the Thomases? |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 04:01:44 AM
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The newer EF product looks like it has some promise. I recently took a little tour of one and then test drove it.
Major improvments to the engine access and electrical as compared to the 97s I once had. Still the same Thomas body overall, some changes made, some still pending. In the near future you are going to see them transitioned to more of a C2 type construction (that is, structural adhesives, self-peircing rivits, NOT a total body redesign). New types of undercoating are being field tested in hopes of reducing rust issues.
It drove decently, better than the early generation. |
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Former School Bus M8
Senior Member
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 06:54:23 AM
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From 99-02 I've had an 00 International Bluebird, 97 Ford Bluebird and a 87 GMC Bluebird...all were good ad reliable buses. From 02-07 had Ic-Ce's which looked nice but had problem after problem which included constant break downs, tough ride, screws falling out and rust problems. From 07-09 I had a 07 Thomas EF which was always breaking down along with the rest of the fleet of 07 Thomas Ef's. It got to the point at times that so many were out of service that we were scrambling to get the routes done. We got a new fleet of 2010's Thomas ef's with a few c2's thrown in last school year and they have proven to be very reliable. Although I think the c2 is ugly and would take a Bluebird Vision or Ic-Ce over it, it is very qiuet, has a nice ride and we rarely have problems. But take into consideration that now we renew our whole fleet every three years so i don't know how they'll hold up in the long run. We also added two buses this year and have two of the Thomas ef's with the dash changes and I and the other drivers don't like the new dash set up and prefer the 2010's more.
Last year I drove a 2010 Bluebird Vision for about a week and with the exception of the small windshield, I liked the ride and it seemed reliable. |
School Bus M8 |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 07:52:50 AM
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| Thanks for the replies. Our Visions have proven reliable, I have no idea about the new ICs but they must like them here because that's all they buy anymore. We have one C2, the district hates the Mercedes engine. Our A3AAFE Birds. Are great buses, no matter what year we get. I've never been around or even seen a Thomas Transit bus, they seem like really good buses. Thomasbus24: Are you talking about the new EFX? I think that one has my vote on the nicest looking bus offered right now. Looks like it would be great. |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4547 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 08:52:11 AM
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| The one I examined was not entirely the new EFX. It is the in-between run from late 2011. It's got all the new features minus the right hand glove box and the new front end/radiator mounting. Those things aside, it's the same. |
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Former School Bus M8
Senior Member
143 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 3:28:40 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by 08BBVision
Thanks for the replies. Our Visions have proven reliable, I have no idea about the new ICs but they must like them here because that's all they buy anymore.
I'm not sure about the new Ic's. I've seen just the opposite around here over the years and my experience with them from 02-07 has not been a positive one. I know the neighboring district was unhappy and I almost want to say disgusted with their fleet of 2010 Ce's. The one thing i'll give them is it is a sharp looking bus but i've learned not to judge a book by it's cover. I've seen many district's that have bought Ic's and have changed over to C2's and one company change from Ic's to Bluebirds. Maybe New England weather has something to do with their perfomance, i dont know. Also I question why First Student recently changed over from Ic-Ce's to C2's,reliability? I dont know.
One thing i'll say about Bluebirds and this is just my opinion, I think they have a lot of potential as long as they play their cards right. I like the Bluebird body but think it's outdated and could be more driver friendly ( like a facelift i.e. a larger windshield, lower dash). I think by updating the body without totally straying away from the body it could be an all around, #1, great bus. Kind of like what Ic did with their conventionals.
The C2 though, I hate to admit it but I like it with the exception of how it looks, the parking brake pedal on the hydrallic's and one blind spot on the left.
Edit to Add:
From a drivers point of view vision wise; I think the c2 is very driver friendly. I feel like i'm right out in the street and in my own little room, with the kids separated from me if you know what I mean. The CE I feel in the open and I like the bigger windshield. The BB Vision I feel Claustrophobic in, in a way. |
School Bus M8 |
Edited by - Former School Bus M8 on 03/02/2012 3:39:20 PM |
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08BBVision
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2012 : 7:28:19 PM
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I agree with you on the C2 being the best for the driver, Thomas really puts a lot of effort into what the driver needs. I would like to see Blue Bird keep that body on the Vision, it's a classic, and I think the Vision is more of a "Classic style" bus, minus the hood. If the windshield was enlarged then the hood would have to be sloped even more, who knows what they will do to it in the years to come though.
From what I have been reading, Thomas does the best up North, the others rust to easily it seems. Yes, IC/AmTran/Ward etc. has always been the cheaper option, that would probably be why our district has always purchased them, the Visions were too expensive in 2008 when they were purchased, I guess, but in all reality you get what you pay for. |
My School Bus Photostream
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tyler_officer/
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Best Manufacturer
