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MorrisV2
Senior Member
53 Posts |
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JC_Theriault
Senior Member
114 Posts |
 Posted - 07/20/2010 : 12:00:48 PM
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| I hope that crossbar system was tossed out on a safety basis. You can cut a regular seat belt to escape if the buckle malfunctions but what are you supposed to do if the crossbar fails to release if the bus needs to be evacuated? Carry a cutting torch set on each bus? |
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Hammer
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 12:46:51 PM
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Not "testing" of the seating systems from a technical standpoint but a pilot program run in NC using 3-pt belts. NC State recorded the data. It is 3 years old and there have been advances to systems even since this was published but it is an interesting read.
http://www.ncbussafety.org/download/3PointBelt_NCSU_Final%20Report.pdf |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 2:17:58 PM
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The configuration is odd. NJ arranged three to a seat on one side and two on the other row. Seemed to sometimes increased actual capacity on 6-12 route buses. Where routes did not run at MAX capacity no difference.
The newer carnival bar type style might work better for their rides but still have too many issues for use on school buses. I like lap 2-PT or lap/shoulder 3-PT belts.
2-PTS are inexpensive with no loss of seating capacity, work better if not adjusted correctly, and do protect well. They are also preferred by providers where 3-PTS are not mandated.
3-PTS work better with somewhat fewer injuries when correctly adjusted.
I would be happy with either, but I very much dislike the higher seat tops. Can't see what the students are doing and that is not a good thing on a school bus. (jk)
NEW FOR 2010 SCHOOL YEAR!
Stopping bullying on the school buses - Fast Track slide presentation to help stop bullying on the school buses. Includes class handouts. Free to use in self-study, for class training, and for presentation to the school board. Click Here for Link (See Post # 14)
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Edited by - JK on 07/22/2010 2:12:34 PM |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/20/2010 : 4:33:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
...I very much dislike the higher seat tops. Can't see what the students are doing and that is not a good thing on a school bus. (jk)
Amen! On a standard-back seat, if a KG/PK student is sitting correctly, I can just see the top of their head. With high back seats and no belts, the little ones are on the honor system. |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 03:53:49 AM
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| You can't have seat belts without higher seat backs. With the addition of seat belts you have the worry of whiplash to be concerned about, just like in a car. You need something behind your head, and high seat backs provide that for most students. |
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Jake
Top Member
USA
3527 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 05:56:16 AM
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I'm sorry but I can't see the cross bar restraint as practical. Though this is the first time that I have heard of it, I can already see all the conflicts it would make loading/ unloading. You'd probably also get problems with them being stuck or inoperable, and from those pictures it looked like you'd have to buy completely new seats just to get them to work. Plus, in accidents there is a chance (maybe a rear impact, side impact) that it could get people more harmed or stuck and cause more injuries than a bus with or without seat belts (wedging the bar up against a student).
It's just a really wild idea, IMHO. |
Yellow & Black
A new forum community dedicated to school bus driving, operations, maintenance and enthusiasts!
Come join the discussion! |
Edited by - Jake on 07/21/2010 05:56:38 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 07:04:57 AM
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<< "You can't have seat belts without higher seat backs." >>
So goes one theory, claims of potential back, neck and brain injuries for one reason or another since the arguments over belts began.
The other theory is the crash forces involving the school buses is considerably less than a car, making the 2-pt lapbelt device ideal for school buses, according to the original engineers and other experts since the 2-pt side of this issue began.
Which theory has prevailed as the reality over the years? Ask NJ, NY and hundreds of school districts with 2-pt lap belts on their school buses, some for decades and without higher seat backs. No so-called horrific injuries, less bus driver distraction where use required which obviously means fewer crashes, less other issues, and also the routine to buckle-up in any vehicle a child rides is maintained.
Reality dictates no such issue with belts that would not also occur more severe without the belts, plus the unique ejection theory when belts are not in use.
Ask the bus manufactures which device is ordered behind the scenes where the politics end and practicality begins? 2-pts dominate except where mandated 3-pts. High backs dominate new purchases because there is no choice.
The high seat tops are a neutral or negative safety feature based not only on my experiences but also on the actual crashes over the decades using 2-pts with the lower seat backs. The high backs create as many or more safety issues than they solve.
The best theory of all is remembering that where politics is involved the price escalates. There is no government in history that survived its own politics. They have all eventually came crashing down when the burden the politicians eventually escalated until destroying the very same mutual interests they claimed to be helping.
Where the safety of children the actual top priority no way would the safest way to and from school be under threat of extinction it is these days. Over-engineering escalates that threat. (jk)
Seat Belts on School Buses - One District's Experience
Click Here for Video Report | Backup Link - May work better on older PC's
Use on the rise
NEW FOR 2010 SCHOOL YEAR!
Stopping bullying on the school buses - Fast Track slide presentation to help stop bullying on the school buses. Includes class handouts. Free to use in self-study, for class training, and for presentation to the school board. Click Here for Link (See Post # 14)
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Edited by - JK on 07/22/2010 07:41:01 AM |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 07:25:59 AM
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I'd like to share a real-world example of a bus equipped with lap belts, and a potential cost/liability issue often overlooked - vandalism. Several months ago, I purchased a 1999 school bus (formerly owned by Laidlaw) to convert into a camper. The bus was from one of the districts in CT that voluntarily equipped buses with lap belts. In 5 of the 24 seats, all of the belts were sliced off at the base, presumably in an act of vandalism.
The bus in question had nearly every seat cover replaced at some point, suggesting that there were many other incidents of vandalism, and that this particular Laidlaw garage repaired other damage in a timely manner. Often overlooked is the cost of repairing/replacing vandalized belts. What about liability? DVIR books left in the bus show more than one driver failing to report this issue in the last months of service. How much worse would the liability be to crash a bus equipped with defective belts than to crash a bus without belts? |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 07:43:47 AM
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<< "How much worse would the liability be to crash a bus equipped with defective belts than to crash a bus without belts?" >>
Would consider your post of value for an answer because you take the time to write more than one sentence.
Regardless, the answer is obvious ... the liability issue would be the same as equipped without belts, simply easier to settle the case.
Seat belts are an excellent marker to help determine who has the run of the bus environment -- the unruly, or the well-behaved and the driver.
My experience with lap belts used as weapons has not happened, but refusal to wear the device, leaving unbuckled when not in use, stuffed through the seat crack, that sort of thing are common issues on unruly buses.
Vandalism can become a non-issue when the well-behaved students and their bus driver have the run of the bus and the lessor offenses are dealt with effectively. (jk)
Seat Belts on School Buses - One District's Experience
Click Here for Video Report | Backup Link - May work better on older PC's
NEW FOR 2010 SCHOOL YEAR!
Stopping bullying on the school buses - Fast Track slide presentation to help stop bullying on the school buses. Includes class handouts. Free to use in self-study, for class training, and for presentation to the school board. Click Here for Link (See Post # 14)
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Edited by - JK on 07/21/2010 07:57:53 AM |
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 08:55:18 AM
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I still don't think you should be getting rid of high back seats when seat belts become common place. Should we get rid of padding too? The high back seats provide more protection to unbelted students, so in the event a crash happens and a student is unbuckled (it will happen) I would want them to have as much passive protection as can be provided (ie, the current high back standard).
Whip lash is an issue in cars and I don't know why it wouldn't be in a bus. It may be less severe in most cases, but take a semi-truck to the rear of the bus and it will probably be just as severe in your car. Take the headrests off the seat in your car and see how well your neck does in a crash. Headrests are in place for restraint, not entirely comfort. |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:20:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JK
Seat belts are an excellent marker to help determine who has the run of the bus environment -- the unruly, or the well-behaved and the driver.
My experience with lap belts used as weapons has not happened, but refusal to wear the device, leaving unbuckled when not in use, stuffed through the seat crack, that sort of thing are common issues on unruly buses.
I have yet to experience belts being used as weapons also, having driven for 4 years in a district that requires lap belts in the first two rows for securing carseats. Once in a while, I have to reprimand a very young child for swinging the belt around, but in that case it's because of using the belt as a toy, not a weapon. I have no firsthand experience with a bus fully equipped with belts, so I can only speculate what older students in the back of the bus would do (especially with the added privacy of high-back seats).
Unfortunately, the reality is that on many buses, the driver and well-behaved students are not in control. In these cases, adding belts can do more harm than good. My post above is a perfect example. My bus came from a district that voluntarily equips with lap belts (one of the districts in CT that has been used as an example several times in other threads about this issue). In that case, the safety benefits of belts are nonexistent for students sitting in the vandalized seats, and I would speculate that misbehaving students are allowed to get away with using those belts however they want.
I would argue that the money being spent on belts should be used to implement effective driver training and support, or even provide monitors on regular ed buses. Many accidents are caused by driver distraction from behavior issues. Many students are injured or killed because they ignore the bus safety rules and stand up or sit the wrong way. In the fatal bus accident in Hartford, CT this past January, unconfirmed reports have suggested that the student who died was standing in the aisle when the bus went off the road, while the students who were sitting properly suffered only minor injuries. |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:26:49 AM
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<< "Should we get rid of padding too?" >>
Of course not - odd you said that. Better padding materials would be okay. Some of the seat top pads in our buses are easily damaged. We spent thousands replacing damaged pads, they crush rather easy when sitting on seat tops or when using them for monkey bars. Imagine hitting your head on the unprotected seat frame, belts or no belts.
The vast majority of crashes occur at low speeds, not high speeds. At high speeds beltless is very bad, worse than whiplash, especially when becoming airborne and ejecting from the bus. The child in a 2-pt lap belt during the Georgia/Tenn. high-speed train impact with her bus received the least injuries. She received no brain, back, or serious neck injuries, nor was she killed like several unbuckled students experienced, including students killed when ejected from the bus. (Unbuckled becaus the option to wear belts was not available.)
I'm ready for either style belts and use required on my already safe. calm bus. Belts can help enhance that environment. (jk)
Seat Belts on School Buses - One District's Experience
Click Here for Video Report | Backup Link - May work better on older PC's
NEW FOR 2010 SCHOOL YEAR!
Stopping bullying on the school buses - Fast Track slide presentation to help stop bullying on the school buses. Includes class handouts. Free to use in self-study, for class training, and for presentation to the school board. Click Here for Link (See Post # 14)
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Edited by - JK on 07/22/2010 07:46:22 AM |
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 07/21/2010 : 09:37:18 AM
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<< "I would argue that the money being spent on belts should be used to implement effective driver training and support, or even provide monitors on regular ed buses. Many accidents are caused by driver distraction from behavior issues. Many students are injured or killed because they ignore the bus safety rules and stand up or sit the wrong way. In the fatal bus accident in Hartford, CT this past January, unconfirmed reports have suggested that the student who died was standing in the aisle when the bus went off the road, while the students who were sitting properly suffered only minor injuries." >>
Nothing really to argue about but argue away if it suits your fancy. See the video and Student management links below, then ask yourself what might be a reason so few link to the materials from this forum?
A link service offered free statistical data gathering for a month, so tracked the downloads. Surprised that ESP, teachers, lawyers and parents and their forums each dominated the downloads numbers, not so much bus drivers or industry interests.
Regardless, 3349 visits to the free resource thread in our forum since 2009 is fine, although can not determine how many visits from search engine results. This in part may be do to not as many menbers, but still would think our interest would exceed that of lawyers. The information is out there on how to do all sorts of things but little good is it not to at least do some homework.
Yes, I agree that "the reality is that on many buses, the driver and well-behaved students are not in control." See that a lot, and hear a multitude of excuses for that reality.
When the well-behaved students and their bus driver are not in charge of the bus environment, then that environment is a dangerous place, belts or no belts. (jk)
Seat Belts on School Buses - One District's Experience
Click Here for Video Report | Backup Link - May work better on older PC's
NEW FOR 2010 SCHOOL YEAR!
Stopping bullying on the school buses - Fast Track slide presentation to help stop bullying and other violence on the school buses. Includes class handouts. Free to use in self-study, for class training, and for presentation to the school board. Click Here for Link (See Post # 14)
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Edited by - JK on 07/21/2010 7:30:41 PM |
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Seat Belt Testing
