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 IC VT-365 EGR Cooler Failures
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57fan
Senior Member

United States
57 Posts

Posted - 09/22/2009 :  11:19:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Now I already know this is a previously subj that has been beaten to death but I am curious to how many times have you had a EGR Cooler replaced on the same engine.

We have a 2005 BE with the VT-365 that was just towed to the shop for its sixth (6) blown cooler. This last time the cooler blew so bad that all the hot coolant / exhaust gasses in the cooling system actually melted the inside of the expansion tank, reshaped the filler cap opening and then blew the cap completly off the tank. Since the engine is still under warranty we just send it off to get repaired and within 6 months its time for a new one. So I am asking how may times have you sent the same bus in for a new cooler. Can anyone top 6?

Bassman
Top Member

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2009 :  03:53:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has the uptime work been done to it? Does it have the low coolant sensor installed and programmed? Has the oil cooler been replaced? (When they are clogged, they restrict the flow of coolant to the EGR cooler and starve them.) I think the most we have had is 3 coolers on one vehicle in 120,000 miles. They are making the coolers stronger and if the uptime work has been done, they seem to be lasting longer for us.
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2009 :  04:00:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Zero times, but only have one 6.0 Powerstroke and one VT365.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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Locruid
New Member

United States
5 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2009 :  06:08:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit Locruid's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We got 7 VT365's in 2005. They ALL are current with updates. ALL replaced at least once, 1 replaced 3x, 2 replaced 4x, 1 replaced 6x (and looking like it needs another).
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2009 :  09:11:02 AM  Show Profile  Send International-9.0 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
This problem cannot be that complicated. There are only 2 things that come to mind for me. The first is that the coolers just weren't built/designed well enough to take the heat load. The 2nd is that somewhere along the line, coolant flow is restricted and the EGR isn't getting enough coolant flow. I'm leaning towards the 2nd option seeing how the number of failures on each engine seems to vary. If failures were consistent, I would be more inclined to say it's a design flaw. Perhaps Navistar needs to come up with a solution involving a sensor. The sensor could warn the driver when the EGR cooler temperature is getting out of safe limits. This would prevent the EGR failure from occuring, and let the technician know that there is a blockage somewhere in the coolant circuit that feeds the EGR cooler. If the flow through this circuit is restricted, this might affect the oil cooler or other accessories that are on the same circuit. (unless there are no other items on the circuit) But then again, I"m no expert on how this sytem works either. Just my 2 cents!
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 09/23/2009 :  12:24:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0

The 2nd is that somewhere along the line, coolant flow is restricted and the EGR isn't getting enough coolant flow. I'm leaning towards the 2nd option seeing how the number of failures on each engine seems to vary. If failures were consistent, I would be more inclined to say it's a design flaw. Perhaps Navistar needs to come up with a solution involving a sensor. The sensor could warn the driver when the EGR cooler temperature is getting out of safe limits. This would prevent the EGR failure from occuring, and let the technician know that there is a blockage somewhere in the coolant circuit that feeds the EGR cooler. If the flow through this circuit is restricted, this might affect the oil cooler or other accessories that are on the same circuit. (unless there are no other items on the circuit) But then again, I"m no expert on how this sytem works either. Just my 2 cents!




Thats the Achilles heel of the VT365, the cooling system is plumbed in series and the EGR cooler is in the circuit after the oil cooler.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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namao
Active Member

Canada
19 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2009 :  10:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit namao's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hello, I am new to this form but have been on the IATN form for years [they have a HD section not bus specific like this though]. As far as 6.0 cooler failures the one leading cause is a restricted oil cooler. One way to test for a restricted oil cooler is to get engine up to temp, drive it and monitor the ect and eot, if the eot goes 25 F degrees more than the ect the oil cooler is restricted. Just a poor design from what I can see.
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2009 :  7:43:30 PM  Show Profile  Send International-9.0 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
What causes the restriction of the oil cooler? Dirty coolant?

Edited by - International-9.0 on 09/25/2009 7:43:49 PM
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 09/25/2009 :  8:14:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0

What causes the restriction of the oil cooler? Dirty coolant?



International traced one source of the oil cooler restriction as being caused by some sort of reaction between the coolant and the engine block heaters. An Uptime Campaign retrofitted coolant filters to engines built before sometime in January of 2006. Also low coolant sensors were installed to reduce chances of air pockets in the coolant.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2009 :  07:27:19 AM  Show Profile  Send International-9.0 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
The path/plumbing of the coolant to the oil cooler might make this impossible, but is there any way to fit a coolant filter in series with/right before the oil cooler? This would catch any debris on it's way to the cooler. Frequently it seems that coolant is pumped from the water pump, through the block, and straight into the oil cooler, as it attaches to the block. I don't know how it's routed on the 365, but that particular arrangement would make it impossible to mount a cooler.
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2009 :  9:49:36 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0

The path/plumbing of the coolant to the oil cooler might make this impossible, but is there any way to fit a coolant filter in series with/right before the oil cooler? This would catch any debris on it's way to the cooler. Frequently it seems that coolant is pumped from the water pump, through the block, and straight into the oil cooler, as it attaches to the block. I don't know how it's routed on the 365, but that particular arrangement would make it impossible to mount a cooler.



Even if possible, a plugged/restricted series plumbed filter would be just as hard on the EGR cooler as a plugged/restricted oil cooler.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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Nick
Advanced Member

USA
333 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2009 :  10:53:20 PM  Show Profile  Send Nick an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Any chance of retrofitting a parallel cooling system for these items? IH changed to parallel cooling for the MaxxForce 7, at least for "critical components" (which I take to mean the EGR and oil coolers among other things).

IC the future, and it is bright.

Edited by - Nick on 09/26/2009 10:57:02 PM
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
394 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  07:14:44 AM  Show Profile  Send International-9.0 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
That's probably the best idea Nick. Orig, you'd have to make sure that you change the filter regularly. Changing the filter is easier than removing the oil cooler for cleaning or replacement. They could also resdesign the oil cooler with larger passages so it didn't plug so easily.
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origcharger
Top Member

United States
619 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2009 :  7:29:53 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Nick

Any chance of retrofitting a parallel cooling system for these items? IH changed to parallel cooling for the MaxxForce 7, at least for "critical components" (which I take to mean the EGR and oil coolers among other things).



With enough money most anything is probably possible but if you are not worried about warranty or meeting emission tests there are many who just eliminate the EGR system, and just like chips and tuners there are kits/conversions available to do just that.

Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2.
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ModMech
Top Member

USA
948 Posts

Posted - 10/04/2009 :  5:52:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit ModMech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The EGR coolers are most commonly killed from low coolant or a restricted engine oil cooler 9as many have stated).

In the bus applications, proper bleeding of the cooling system has ALWAYS been a major pain, we used to take the Gray lift and get the S/A about 24" off the ground with the engine at idle to get the last gallon of air out. MANY cars have these same challenges, but since most people only keep cars 3 years, they never find out about it.

If you want customer service, you NEED an International!
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Diesel Chic
New Member

8 Posts

Posted - 04/29/2010 :  11:28:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have 6 2007 sister buses that have the VT365 in it. They all seemed to need injectors at the same time and some needed the EGR Cooler as well. A few of them only had the injectors done then a month later the EGR cooler went.... Could the shop have noticed this problem before they broke down or the work done, could that have any relation to getting air pockets in the cooler?
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mastertech
Advanced Member

222 Posts

Posted - 04/30/2010 :  8:25:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit mastertech's Homepage  Reply with Quote
http://www.cornwelltools.com/webcat/products.php?product=MSM202CR-%252d-Vacuum-Assist-Coolant-Refiller#
Tools like this are crucial to filling the cooling system properly and would most likely have saved a lot of engine from blowing head gaskets,oil coolers ect from the old ways of cooling system filling. They are worth every penny .
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 05/03/2010 :  04:07:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's not possible to see a cooler failing before it fails. The only way to tell a cooler is beginning to fail is to monitor your coolant levels frequently. As soon as you must add coolant, check for leaks and if none exist, your cooler is beginning to fail. All IH dealers are supposed to be using the vacuum fill technique recommended in the thread above and there is an International part number they are required to use. IF they left air in the system, it could have contributed to your failure. Our shop took a 55 gal drum, and cut it down to where it fits under the bus crossmember and then mounted the tool to it. This way it is easy to use and our techs use it now all the time. I realize that running low on coolant trashes coolers, BUT 95% of our failures have never seen a low coolant level. We check our levels M,W,and F on the whole lot and are religious with the levels. Even with full coolant levels, the coolers still fail! The other thing that clogs oil coolers is thought to be material left in the buses heater cores during assembly. This is another reason why having the uptime work is so important.

Edited by - Bassman on 05/03/2010 04:10:25 AM
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Sam Johnson
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 03/22/2011 :  4:28:20 PM  Show Profile  Visit Sam Johnson's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have a 2006 CE VT365, 49,000 miles & about to install the 5th EGR cooler. My first question is, what is the actual damage to the cooler? Cracked tube? Pitted tube? Hole burned in tube? The warranty covered all new coolers & now the warranty has ended. Before I can have an opinion to what is causing the damage, I need to know what the exact damage is. I have read a lot of good suggestions for the premature failure.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
508 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2011 :  03:51:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On ours, the little part inside that looks like a radiator starts to leak. Make sure you have all your updates done on that bus. Has it had the ext filter installed and does it have the low coolant sensor installed and programmed (these were performed as a part of an AFC). The number of failures on that bus is really bad. We have usually failed 3 or 4 by 150,000 miles. I would perform the test that IH uses to determine oil cooler restriction. Basically run the bus hard for at least 20 min and then (using the laptop) compare the engine oil temp to the coolant temp. If the oil temp is more than like 15 degrees above the coolant temp, you have a restricted oil cooler which is starving the EGR cooler for flow. The oil cooler is plumbed in series before the egr cooler (not the best idea). I am remembering the 15 degree number off the top of my head....it's been a while. Some buses plugged up the oil cooler with material that circulated out of the heater cores. IH replaced them as a part of one of their campaigns (probably expired now). You could have a restristion in this area.
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Newman
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2011 :  5:26:56 PM  Show Profile  Visit Newman's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sam Johnson

I have a 2006 CE VT365, 49,000 miles & about to install the 5th EGR cooler. My first question is, what is the actual damage to the cooler? Cracked tube? Pitted tube? Hole burned in tube? The warranty covered all new coolers & now the warranty has ended. Before I can have an opinion to what is causing the damage, I need to know what the exact damage is. I have read a lot of good suggestions for the premature failure.



http://www.bulletproofdiesel.com/Articles.asp?ID=148
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MOTOHEAD
New Member

1 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  06:29:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit MOTOHEAD's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I just want to thank everyone for the information you left regarding the 365. It will come in very handy being the fact my company doesn't send us to schooling on this. International should be ashamed of desighning such a piece of garbage in the first place. I have two buses that are assighned to me both have these engines and have been a thorn in my ass ever since. MOTOHEAD
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lehane78
New Member

5 Posts

Posted - 05/08/2013 :  8:42:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit lehane78's Homepage  Reply with Quote
IC finally figured out the EGR cooler problem by offering a Cummins engine. We replaced all our 6 liter coolers at least twice (5 units), and one of them is on their fourth. We tried an after-market cooler, but it did worse than an OEM, but the last bunch has seemed to do much better. I only like the Cummings because of the minimal issues. I think the IC body with a engine that actually works will bring a lot of folks back to IC.
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JRob
Senior Member

180 Posts

Posted - 05/09/2013 :  09:24:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
IC finally figured out the EGR cooler problem by offering a Cummins engine


Great now if you could just get a 15-liter Cummins engine into a school bus that solution would apply.
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