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edj
New Member
3 Posts |
 Posted - 10/15/2019 : 1:54:46 PM
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I have a 2002 International with a DT466E, about 185,000 miles, that has no start / hard to start problem when cold. With ambient temperatures of around 60* and below the truck will crank but not start. Sometimes with temps of around 60* or higher, it will crank and start, but sounds like it's missing on three cylinders and will run at around 400 RPM. After 30 to 60 seconds, it will stall out. You can crank it again, but it will not restart. It makes no difference if you hold to accelerator to floor or not, it still stalls out. When trying to run, it sound like it has air in the fuel lines. If the block heater is plugged in, it will start and run, sometimes a little rough but at, but will clear up. It can then be restarted all day long as long as it doesn't get too cold again. Once running, and warmed up, it runs fine - no smoke, plenty of power.
In November of 2016, at about 165,000 miles, I resealed the injectors, which were leaking, and replaced the IPR for an extended crank complaint. That solved the problem that time, then in November of 2018, at about 175,000 miles, I had the complaint which I described above. At that time, I followed the troubleshooting guide EGED-180. I checked the fuel check ball - ok, replaced the primer pump which was leaking, replaced the ICP sensor which was leaking into the electrical connector, replaced the fuel pressure regulator in the back of the head, which would intermittently leak down, and the seals for the hard fuel lines in case it was sucking air after the filter housing. The fuel rail would intermittently leak down, but would take almost 24 hours to hit zero. It was also serviced with an oil change, oil filter, fuel filters, and air filter and a valve adjustment. Nothing made a difference, the truck went back out for the winter and just got plugged in all the time and had to be warmed up for at least a half hour before driving it.
Now, I have the truck again for the same problem. It had the following inactive codes:
134, SPN 91, FMI 7 Accelerator Position & Idle Validation Disagree
133, SPN 91, FMI 2 Accelerator Position Signal In Range Fault
131, SPN 91, FMI 4 Accelerator Position Signal Out of Range Low
135, SPN 230, FMI 11 Idle Validation Switch Fault
I cleared these codes and none have come back, but the issue persists. There are no active codes with the Standard Test and it passes the KOEO and KOER injector tests. While cranking, ServiceMax displays 11.2 volts, approximately 390 RPM, and ICP pressure of 960 +/- psi. Even though the ICP desired and actual follow each other within a few psi, I hooked a manual gauge up which confirmed the pressure readings. Grounding the IPR will produce upwards of 4,000 psi. Based on these pressures, and the fact that it will start immediately when hot, I didn't think I had a high pressure oil leak under the valve cover, but hooked shop air to the oil manifold. Without pulling the valve cover, I couldn't hear any leaks, so I closed the valve to hold pressure in the manifold. ServiceMax showed 60 psi in the manifold while shop air showed 100 psi, but the manifold held pressure for at least 5 minutes. I also checked the fuel pressure at the schrader valve and have 40+ while cranking, 50-60 psi while running.
I'm leaning towards bad injectors or low compression. I don't have an adapter to do a compression test, but can do a relative compression test, however that won't show anything if all the cylinders are low on compression. Since when it starts up and then stalls it sounds like it's only running on three cylinders, I thought there might be a wiring issue with a set of injectors, since they're wired up 1-3 and 4-6, but of course when I got an amp probe on one of the two returns for the injectors it started up and then cleared up within a few seconds since it was in the 70's today. I could see a current draw for each of the three injectors, but it was only about 2 amps and I wasn't able to switch to the other return before it cleared up. International says the injectors pull 7 amps to open and then drop to 3.5 amps to stay open, but I never saw more than 2 amps. This is the only DT466 I have to test so I can't compare my readings with anything else. I just don't want to throw parts at it and hope I fix it. Hoping some of you guys that work on these Internationals more than me can point me in the right direction. |
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willism
Advanced Member
United States
250 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2019 : 06:11:35 AM
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| We dont have any 02's left our oldest is 2006 dt's but most are pushing 180-200k after fighting the first injector job back in january I just go all out and have had good results 0 comebacks on going on 8th one this year. They get full set of injectors pucks icp valve cover gasket both the injector wiring harness sensor wiring harness fuel filter assy (getting cracks on the housing on the back side where you cant see) coolant line from the block to the compressor and the 90 degree oil return line next to that those started cracking. Doing all that fixed all the little complaints and the big running problems. Most of those jobs did a turbo and hpop if they were original. With just me one other tech and a helper for 73 buses cant afford comebacks. Got enough other stuff like ripped off roof hatches twice a week |
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Gearbox
Senior Member
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2019 : 07:09:52 AM
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Verify integrity of clean power from battery box to IDM and ECM relay outputs. (Voltage drop test)
Also do relative compression as it may show something or help eliminate something as part of your diagnosis.
Great documentation by the way, |
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Bluenozer
Top Member
Canada
644 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2019 : 07:15:38 AM
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did you perform the hard start/no start trouble shooting list
I've found that sheet always finds the issue , but don't skip steps or just say 'yeah that's good |
OEM trained in wiring and all engine platforms for over 20 years
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Gearbox
Senior Member
USA
53 Posts |
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Bluenozer
Top Member
Canada
644 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2019 : 05:35:43 AM
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| thats the right one |
OEM trained in wiring and all engine platforms for over 20 years
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edj
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2019 : 6:09:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gearbox
Verify integrity of clean power from battery box to IDM and ECM relay outputs. (Voltage drop test)
Also do relative compression as it may show something or help eliminate something as part of your diagnosis.
Great documentation by the way,
Didn't get a chance to do voltage drop tests as it was raining and the truck is outside and won't start. Does anybody have a pinout diagram for the ECM plug? I have wiring diagrams and pin numbers, but couldn't find a picture of the plug.
I did get the relative compression test done. Doesn't look like anything obviously wrong.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/NW5nzTrdb8toc2Bq9
edit to add: I tried adding the picture, but it never shows up.
quote:
Bluenozer
did you perform the hard start/no start trouble shooting list
I've found that sheet always finds the issue , but don't skip steps or just say 'yeah that's good
I used the EGED-180-2 troubleshooting list, but it's an older one than what was posted here. The newer one adds in some additional voltage checks for the ECM and IDM. I'll check those tomorrow. The only test that I skipped over was the exhaust restriction test. I don't think that's a problem since it will start and run with no problem if the block heater is plugged in or if the engine is warm, but if the block heater isn't plugged in and ambient air temps are in the 60's or below it won't start. |
Edited by - edj on 10/17/2019 6:21:59 PM |
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Gearbox
Senior Member
USA
53 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2019 : 1:07:43 PM
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| Hard start only when its cold, common check is to put amp clamp around either battery cable, turn key on let grid heaters cycle, healthy system will pull 250 amps. |
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edj
New Member
3 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2019 : 5:06:43 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Gearbox
Hard start only when its cold, common check is to put amp clamp around either battery cable, turn key on let grid heaters cycle, healthy system will pull 250 amps.
This truck doesn’t have grid heaters. Not positive, but I think they came in 2004 with the EGR engines. |
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2002 DT466E hard start/no start when cold
