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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 08/23/2003 :  3:40:35 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
According to press reports, Richard Cohen, an attorney for the Southern Poverty Law Center "which sued along with the American Civil Liberties Union and Americans United for Separation of Church and State" praised the eight justices that ordered Alabama Justice Moore to remove the Ten Commandments from public display.

"Their courageous actions reflect that Justice Moore is a disgrace to the bench and ought to resign or be removed from office," Cohen said.

A disgrace?

This from The Father of the United States of America:

George Washington, in his September 17, 1796, Farewell Address, warned the common counsels, "The very idea of the power and the right of the people to establish government presupposes the duty of every individual to obey the established government;" and he warned of the "fatal tendency" of destructive special interests to incite the Nation's citizens to abandon that obedience; "... ill-concerted and incongruous projects of faction, rather than the organ of consistent and wholesome plans digested by common counsels and modified by mutual interests."

Separation of church and state should be considered an invention, a fable, a hoax or a deception successfully taught the people by the ACLU - appropriately credited the teachers of this deception. The court was not deceived, but rather embraced an 'invention,' preferring that to the 'grand experiment.'

In Washington's Farewell Address he said religion was the source of morality, "a necessary spring of popular government." Adams claimed that "statesmen may plan and speculate for Liberty, but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom can securely stand."

The First Act of Congress following their agreement of the precise wording of the First Amendment -- ("Congress shall make no law concerning the establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...") -- was to ask President Washington to declare a "national day of fasting and prayer." Does this sound like a call for the elimination of religion from the public environment?

When not an expert or ACLU teacher, how can it be possible for the rest of us to know right from wrong? The answer for all can be found, not in what we know, but in what we embrace. (jk)

Music Download: WBAP Radio News Talk 820, Arlington, TX Version of "Sweet Home Alabama"(4.32 MB)

WBAP Radio News Talk 820 story

Click Here for story, "Commandments Monument Still There"

Edited by - JK on 08/24/2003 11:40:07 AM

wagonmaster
Top Member

USA
2298 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2003 :  06:13:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is truly a travesty! What have we become??
Joe

Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave!
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Ram Guard
Senior Member

USA
102 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2003 :  1:05:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ram Guard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
(quote) This is truly a travesty! What have we become??


Dark and getting darker.

"Do Your Best"
WWW.nlynxind.com
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2003 :  1:30:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have to agree with you both on this one. This ruling caught me by surprise, more so than the Pledge of Allegiance ruling.

Religion is a dangerous thing for the courts to be involved in making rulings on. Religous persecution in England's courts was a primary motivator that helped establish this country - quickly dubbed the 'grand experiment.'

I'm concerned that this constant anti-Christian attack could eventually lead to a civil breakdown -- one provoked by the behavior of special interests, politicians, educrats and the courts; ignoring the actual intentions behind the constitution, but imposing their personal inventions on regular folks.

The law abiding can have a difficult time obeying the law when the honorable courts have violated the peoples constitutional rights. A permanent loss of trust is a potent mechanism that can incite radical draconian-like changes and violence.

My personal opinion is an anger is growing in our country like a sleeping volcano; appears calm enough today, with the earth shaking a bit on occasion, nothing to get concerned about; invisible to most of us other than perhaps an uneasy feeling when the earth shakes now and then.

The courts persist in adding more fuel to that invisible fire.

I would think that if the provocations continue and this country erupted into something more visible, extremism would then yank to the opposite side, more violence the result.

One successful spark from the right extremist, over the right issue could begin such a cycle of violence against the courts. Hitler understood this and so should we.

Now, I would think, now! is the time to calmly and firmly protest and demand a change in venue. But, like so often the case, not much interest in that from regular folks. A bit too embarrassing for some to talk about religion, preferring to keep some things neatly stored in a room somewhere.

Sex out of the closet and religion in.

Others prefer to trust someone else will take care of that for them - radio talk show hosts, politicians, special interests, priests, a radical here and there, and - believe it or not - the honorable courts. These prefer a free ride on the backs and the sweat and the tears of others. (I may not be much on religion, but I still choose not to be counted among the silent lazy.)

Who are these people kidding?

The only instruction not to discuss religion was imposed on the courts, not the rest of us.

The ACLU talks about religion every day in the courts. A public place is it not? School boards discuss religion in public settings - school board meetings. What right does the ACLU have, or the courts for that matter, to impose silence on the rest of us in our public places.

Who needs terrorists to disrupt our peace when we have all this working on behalf of their efforts? By the time terrorists get their way we may have already taken care of their desire ourselves.

Always remember that our nation's founders did not attribute certain "inalienable rights" to individuals as gifts from man or from government.

Sorry about the long post, but since this thread is so void of discussion anyway, no harm done. Our forum's Christians? Wonder where they are? They must be at church, or at that court house in Alabama helping with the protest. (jk)

Note: Those downloading the Texas western song in the first post and not familiar with the part in the lyrics, referring to commandment 9, I went ahead and looked it up: 9. "Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor." (Makes good sense to me.)






Edited by - JK on 08/24/2003 1:58:58 PM
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kd4jfd
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USA
1168 Posts

Posted - 08/24/2003 :  3:38:21 PM  Show Profile  Click to see kd4jfd's MSN Messenger address  Send kd4jfd a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Does anyone have addresses for these people down there? I'd like to express my opnion...

539 - Repair work in progress!

Edited by - kd4jfd on 08/25/2003 3:25:08 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  10:48:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by kd4jfd

Does anyone have addresses for these people down there? I'd like to express my opnion...



You can write to Judge Roy Moore direct, if that is is what you are asking. Since you didn't want to post here and gave no hint of who you wanted to write, this would be my assumption. The address is:

Judge Roy S. Moore
PO Box 8222
Gadsden, AL 35902

Guidelines for letter writing: Be polite, brief, to the point, and be sure and give your return address if you are wanting a response. (Letters with no return address or an inaccurate one may not make it through security screening.)

I'm surprised there are so few comments in this thread concerning this issue. For or against Moore's position is hardly a taboo subject in the press or most anywhere else. And having an opinion will not put anyone here in the 'Hitler' or 'extremist' catagory I mentioned in an earlier post and regardless of your position. (Anyone attempting to paint a forum member that way can expect a scolding from many in this forum.)

Moore is in a 'Whistleblower' mode and has the court's elite and the ACLU plenty upset. Expect to hear all sorts of statements from the ACLU and others expressing disappointment in the judge, as well as attacks attempting to paint Justice Moore as an extremist.

World Net Daily hosted an article on Judge Moore from the August edition of WND's monthly Whistleblower magazine, an issue titled "LAW-LESS: Why many Americans fear attorneys and judges more than terrorists."

Click Here for story

Opposing view:Agnosticism/Atheism thoughts - Judge Roy Moore: Reactions



Edited by - JK on 08/29/2003 4:43:58 PM
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Peter
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USA
1057 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  12:13:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
I'm concerned that this constant anti-Christian attack could eventually lead to a civil breakdown -- one provoked by the
behavior of special interests, politicians, educrats and the courts; ignoring the actual intentions behind the constitution,
but imposing their personal inventions on regular folks.


The breakdown is ongoing and has been since the beginning. In this country, we are seeing this attack intensify in recent decades. Why? Well, I don't want to be simplistic but I think that the answer is fairly simple. Most people don't want to be told what to do. We have this desire to make our own decisions and do whatever we please.

Now, there are two sides to this; a duality of implications. On one side, is industry. This is where our independent nature is useful; where people work hard to achieve a creative vision despite what the critics say. Many better mousetraps have been successfully built by those who've persevered undaunted by obstacles. Many social ministries were begun against the odds and helped some of those in need, while changing, if only slightly, the tide of the time. Also in this side is religious freedom. The first amendment ensures that people are free to worship God as they wish, free of government imposed restrictions. For the person that says, "I'd like to sing to God in this style" or "I'd like to reflect in the solitude of the forest on Sunday," these desires cannot be squelched by the police.

On the other side is selfishness. This is the side that says that laws are for ninnies and religion is bad because it has rules. Nobody can tell me to do anything and they'd better not get in my way when I decide what I want to do, no matter what it is. From this mindset come the crimes that hurt people, come disrespect and disregard for order, peace and civility. This is the side that doesn't like the Ten Commandments because they are laws imposed upon us.

People don't like to see the Ten Commandments because they make them feel guilty. Putting up that monument at the courthouse reminds people that we really are accountable for our actions; that there is a standard for our behavior to be followed. That is why there is so much opposition to the monument. I think that some people must believe that if they can remove references to God from their sight and avoid thinking about right and wrong, they can just make it all go away. I don't know how it will work for them, but it doesn't work for me.

God exists whether we like it or not and He has expectations for how we are to behave. These expectations are not unreasonable or harsh. In fact, when followed, every commandment in the list helps to improve the quality of life for ourselves and our neighbors.

I think that the monument should remain at the courthouse. It's a good daily reminder for those who see it. I know that I could use a reminder throughout the day.
-------

The Ten Commandments at Exodus 20:17 in your Bible

Online:
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?passage=Exodus 20%3A1-17&NIV_version=yes&language=english&x=16&y=6

Spicer is nicer.
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Ram Guard
Senior Member

USA
102 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  12:27:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ram Guard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the links JK.

Too bad Judge Roy Moore's hunker down and spell things out in the dirt traits aren't the norm in this nation, but then again after reading of this man, the majority of the population won't even understand where this individual came from, or what has formed his character, much less be able to walk in his footsteps.

"Do Your Best"
www.nlynxind.com

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JK
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USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  3:11:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by subsbd

quote:
Originally posted by JK
I'm surprised there are so few comments in this thread concerning this issue.


It's called discretion.




What do you mean by that comment? Do you mean, Knowing how to avoid embarrassment or distress; "the servants showed great tact and discretion."

Is this topic one you believe should be discussed in the closet, away from the prying minds of the public?

The ACLU and their friends believes no such thing. They're blabbing up a storm concerning this issue. So are the churches, court experts, talk show hosts and editor commentaries galore. Discussion, not discretion. is ongoing most everywhere in this country over this important issue. Why do you think that is the case?

Is it to the closet you want the rest of us to go?

-or-

Are you saying the rest of us should just keep our mouths shut, demonstrating that we are somehow wiser or 'better than'? That we are then good servants of some sort?

-or-

Is it that we are 'less than' and, for that reason, should keep our mouths shut? Are we too small and too ignorant to have a worthy opinion?

Frankly, I appreciate people that tell me what they think about an issue, even when they disagree with my position. I like these far better than the 'fence sitters,' or those blasted politicians that play hide-n-seek with their thoughts.

I understand the timid and can accept these, encouraging them and waiting patiently until they are ready to speak.

Hard to tell what someone means when they pop a post on us with so little information.

Nice try though. (jk)


Edited by - JK on 08/29/2003 3:43:48 PM
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coolbusdriver
Top Member

Canada
1509 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  4:28:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seems like Christains are not being given the right of freedom of speach. If the monument had been some native item (dream catcher?) would there have been such a fuss and demand to remove it?
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kd4jfd
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USA
1168 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2003 :  8:42:17 PM  Show Profile  Click to see kd4jfd's MSN Messenger address  Send kd4jfd a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I sent the following E-mail (Got form letter response):




Dear Mr. President,

I would like to take a moment to address my concerns about what I concider to be 2 Constitutiional Violations by the federal judge in the above referenced situation.

I have been following the disaster on the Channel One News at school, and in the Athens Banner-Herald. If what has been reported is correct, then Justice Moore has been punished for upholding the laws of this country. I believe that his right of free speech, and his religious rights have been violated. The Ten Commandments are the foundation of the laws of this country. While the Founding Fathers may not have necessarily had a deep an abiding Faith in the Christian Beliefs, they did support the creed. As you know, the purpose of the seperation of church and state was not to keep the church from the government, but to keep the government from establishing a state religion, as the Anglican Church of England.

I strongly urge you to have the Supreme Court Justices review this case, reinstate Justice Moore, and replace the Ten Commandments back where they belong, in public view.


Sincerely,

Bruce D. Cram
Educator, School Bus Driver, Retired Veteran, and Concerned Citizen

I believe the web address was

www.whitehouse.gov


539 - Repair work in progress!

Edited by - kd4jfd on 09/03/2003 10:56:34 AM
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ZZTalon
Senior Member

USA
136 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2003 :  3:58:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit ZZTalon's Homepage  Send ZZTalon an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Now don't everyone jump on me but I hate seeing a one sided arguement.
Maybe it's just where I come from but if I walked into a courthouse, police station, DMV, govt. building and saw a huge rock with the 10 commandments or any other religious stuff on it, or a religious statue or something, it'd be really sketchy. Maybe it's different in the south. Anyway when you stick something like that in a courthouse, it makes it seem like thats the law of the court or something, or that the court endorses that religion.
It's not really about what the monument is. I have no idea what the 10 commandments are, but from what I've heard they don't sound that bad. But lets say a judge put up a satanic monument or something less mainstream. If you let the 10 commandments stay, you'd have to let that stay as well. That's not what a courthouse is all about.
In a courthouse, put up a bill of rights monument, a constitution monument etc.


http://www.nyschoolbus.com
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1983WardFord
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USA
1395 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2003 :  10:48:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Commandment #1--Thou shalt have no ther gods before me.
#2--Thou shalt not worship any graven image.
#3--Thou shalt not take God's name in vain.
#4--Remember the sabbath to keep it holy.
#5--Honor they father and mother.
#6--Thou shalt not kill.
#7--Thou shalt not commit adultery.
#8--Thou shalt not steal.
#9--Thou shalt not bear false witness.
#10--Thou shalt not covet.

The 10 commandments have been around for practically forever; I don't understand why people are just recently (in the last 5-10 years) having a problem with them being displayed.

Due to the current economic condition, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
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Rich
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United States
5768 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2003 :  12:16:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ZZTalon

Now don't everyone jump on me but I hate seeing a one sided arguement.
Maybe it's just where I come from but if I walked into a courthouse, police station, DMV, govt. building and saw a huge rock with the 10 commandments or any other religious stuff on it, or a religious statue or something, it'd be really sketchy. Maybe it's different in the south. Anyway when you stick something like that in a courthouse, it makes it seem like thats the law of the court or something, or that the court endorses that religion.
It's not really about what the monument is. I have no idea what the 10 commandments are, but from what I've heard they don't sound that bad. But lets say a judge put up a satanic monument or something less mainstream. If you let the 10 commandments stay, you'd have to let that stay as well. That's not what a courthouse is all about.
In a courthouse, put up a bill of rights monument, a constitution monument etc.



What Chris said is very true, and now that I have been thinking about it, that monument should have never been there in the first place.

Religion is religion. Government is government. Sure, our country was founded on the principles of a religion, but now, the government has seperated church from state. This country has plenty of religions, why should one be favored over another in a government setting (i.e.- court houses, police stations, city halls, etc)?

Commandments 1,3, and 4 certainly have no need to be displayed in a public setting.

It may sound absurd, but it is simply my opinion. I'm a practicing Catholic, I support religious freedom--- but this crosses the line.





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PHW
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USA
1345 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2003 :  12:33:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You draw a line and tell someone not to cross it. The first reaction is oh ya, I'll show you. I feel both sides are wrong. First for the judge who put there in defiance and two for the other judge going oh ya, I'll show you. The Ten Commandments should not be used as a political football.

As far as priorities it makes you think what are they doing.

PHW

Child Check For Life
Chock Wheels For Life
Proud American For Life

Edited by - PHW on 09/03/2003 12:37:20 PM
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rswboe
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USA
675 Posts

Posted - 09/04/2003 :  10:28:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There is a point that many, if most people seem to be missing. Like it or not, the Ten Commandments are probably the oldest known example of written law, and possess historical significance as such. Multiple religions are based on the commandments or variations of them. When viewed in this context, the commandments represent historical law, and not religion. They ARE displayed in the Supreme Court, among other important Governmental edifices. I think everyone (especially the ACLU) needs to relax. The ACLU has it's own political agenda and needs to be very closely watched. I am not a religious person, but things like "In God We Trust" on my money isn't an issue. The overwhelmingly vast majority of Americans are religious, as were the founding fathers, and this needs to be recognized. We cannot live in an anticeptic vaccume.

Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right!
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JK
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USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2003 :  2:43:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Peter

EVRYTHING PETER SAID IN HIS POST!!



Peter,

Exceptional! Very well stated. Did you write this? I ask only because the presented was unexpected. Your post is so well written, a presentation of deeper thought beyond what I realized could come from you. Your post exceeds what I've said concerning this issue and what many others have said, both here and in the press. (jk)

Edited by - JK on 09/06/2003 2:57:47 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2003 :  2:54:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ZZTalon

... But lets say a judge put up a satanic monument or something less mainstream. If you let the 10 commandments stay, you'd have to let that stay as well.



Rubbish, yet I respect your right to say it. Fancy that.

quote:
Originally posted by ZZTalon

... That's not what a courthouse is all about. In a courthouse, put up a bill of rights monument, a constitution monument etc.



A close examination of the documents you mentioned are in reality religous artifacts -- Christianity based most experts would agree. (jk)

Edited by - JK on 09/06/2003 3:01:15 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2003 :  4:10:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Who can be first to touch fame by demanding the Ten Commandments removed from public settings in their community?

Ten Commandment displays contested across the nation -- Commandment postings on courthouse plaques, capital grounds and other public sites are contested from Washington state to suburban Philadelphia and points in-between.

Click Here for story

The moving of Moore's monument to a private area, an oversized closet in my opinion, is a strange event from an increasing strange behavior in this country. Reminders to 'behave' go into the closet - and sex of all sorts comes out - both the incredible achievements of ACLU teachings.

I would think the ACLU must soon be considered the actual precious cargo in this country. I'm certainly pushing that the ACLU receive every credit due their freedom fighting efforts:

I'm thinking there ought to be a National ACLU Teachers Day, a special day set aside for the rest of us to acknowledge and celebrate the great lessons that soon enough must be repeated in yet another nation headed down the toilet.

Perhaps in a few short years kiddy porn (yes, this one's on the agenda) will be added to the list of wonderfully new and lawful media entertainment for America's freedom loving adults and kids to enjoy - made possible through America's Freedom Fighters, your ACLU Team of Commandment Busters.

Any ACLU action figures available at Walmart yet? I haven't checked. Haven't noticed them on cereal boxes or offered at fast food restaurants for the kids. What's with that? I want some Commandment Buster action figures now to give the kindergartners this year. Kids these days need great people to look up too. And who are greater than the ACLU teachers? Apparently, none these days. So where are those ACLU action figures?

What I don't find amazing, not in the least, is that the same ACLU that defends pornography, including the right of children to view such content - and the right to publicly display anti-Christian art - would also fight against the public display of the Ten Commandments.

Indeed, a rose is a rose is a rose. What color a rose is the ACLU? (jk)

"Not only for every idle word must man give an account but for every idle silence." --Saint Ambrose, Patron Saint of Learning (and one of histories dead and long past Freedom Fighting Action Figures)

Edited by - JK on 09/07/2003 4:20:23 PM
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Ram Guard
Senior Member

USA
102 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2003 :  4:56:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit Ram Guard's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote

A close examination of the documents you mentioned are in reality religous artifacts -- Christianity based most experts would agree. (jk)

JK, I don't believe that Moses would understand this "Christianity based" statement.

"Do Your Best"
www.nlynxind.com
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2003 :  5:00:44 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I heard Moses is sleeping right now. Christian based religious documents would suffice I suppose, or perhaps Christian antiques or heirlooms. Wouldn't hurt to check with the ACLU teachers. They seem to know what's what and what's appropriate for public display these days. (jk)

ACLU sues Vermont over Internet child-porn law


Edited by - JK on 09/08/2003 05:51:37 AM
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mr.dave
Advanced Member

USA
414 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2003 :  5:20:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If we follow #1 "No gods before me" all other religions are no longer welcome in the courthouse. If we follow #4 "Remember the sabbath and keep it holy" we have to give up shopping or working on saturday, and N.C.A.A. Football. Or we could honor the Christian sabbath, not shop, or work Sundays, and give up pro-football. If we follow #9 the whole tradition of American jurisprudence will fall apart. If we display the Lords holy commandments and do not honor and follow them we violate #3 by taking the Lord's name in vain. Unless we are ready to become a theocracy with all that intails it is best to follow the words of my lord Jesus the Christ. " Those things that are Ceaser's render unto Ceaser, those things that are God's render unto God." This is as true today as when The Christ said it, and I am sure just as unpopular.

shalom dave

Shiny side up, greasy side down
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2003 :  5:50:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The reality is those words have not been followed by most grown ups' since their inscription - your point is irrelevant.

Now tell me. Where can I get some ACLU action figures for the kids? (jk)

Aug 6 2003
KPTV 12 NEWs
Denver-AP -- A new Colorado state law brought students to their feet today -- and will continue to do so every day.

The law requires all public school students from kindergarten through high school to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. It was one of dozens of laws that went into effect today.

There is no punishment for disobeying -- and officials admit it may be hard to enforce. As one teacher put it, "if they just stand up, that's good enough for me."

There are also exemptions for students who aren't American citizens or whose parents write a note.

The American Civil Liberties Union says the requirement is unconstitutional because it mandates what children should say.

Click Here for story

Edited by - JK on 09/07/2003 5:55:45 PM
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Peter
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USA
1057 Posts

Posted - 09/09/2003 :  6:25:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Exceptional! Very well stated. Did you write this? I ask only because the presented was unexpected. Your post is so well written, a presentation of deeper thought beyond what I realized could come from you. Your post exceeds what I've said concerning this issue and what many others have said, both here and in the press. (jk)


Thanks.

Spicer is nicer.
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bosslady
Advanced Member

USA
336 Posts

Posted - 09/12/2003 :  05:32:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
JK: You say you are surprised there isn't more response to this post. I believe it is probably because so many of us feel it doesn't do any good any more to protest, that our religious rights are being stripped away and there doesn't seem to be anything we can do about it.
I know I shouldn't have this attitude. I know we need to fight for what we believe in, but it seems to be a losing battle the last few years. Too many have that "if it feels good,do it regardless of the consequences" attitude" I guess at my age, I'm tired of fighting and I'm giving up. I know I can't do that though as I have grandchildren who have to live in this world after I'm gone and I hate to think what this world will be like in a few years for them. There are so few morals and values in this world today.
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 09/13/2003 :  3:42:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bosslady

... I guess at my age, I'm tired of fighting and I'm giving up. I know I can't do that though as I have grandchildren who have to live in this world after I'm gone and I hate to think what this world will be like in a few years for them. There are so few morals and values in this world today.



Your heart has been beating since before your birth. Isn't it time to just give that old heart a rest? Can always start it beating again in a few days. Or can you?

Death comes quickly to visit those that retire their efforts, their heart's passion for the decent things - decent treatment for themselves, their neighbors and the kids.

What's right, what's wrong, maintaining justice and what's appropriate is a daily battle between decency and indecency.

Forget about tomorrow and pace yourself for today. Forget the global battle and focus on helping your own kids and your own community.

It takes little effort to open one's mouth.

The foolish and the wise alike achieve the skill of opening their mouths without any problem. What you are or where you stand depends on what you think about, what you embrace and what you do next when confronting your own embarrassment, your own fearfulness or when tired of a battle.

New energy comes from a smile and a grateful thought for the great blessings the least of us enjoy in this country.

Smile much, and be grateful for each new day - another opportunity to make a tiny difference, perhaps noticed only by that big guy in the sky. Else, what good is a flower no one ever saw bloom?

If it's the little things that count, then that should be enough for you to plant a tiny seed in the minds of those important to you, what you embrace and your efforts today. Not a lot of work involved in doing that I would think. (jk)

ACLU Ten-Year-Old Hot Button
The document is titled "ACLU Answers. Issue: Pornography" and is dated September 23, 1991. It says:

"We support the prosecution of child pornographers under existing laws for the harm they inflict on children. But we believe government may not restrict the distribution of child pornography once it has been published."

Click Here for link




Edited by - JK on 09/14/2003 10:59:42 AM
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JK
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Posted - 09/14/2003 :  1:08:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
UPDATES

On June 4, 2003, the Eleventh Circuit Court of appeals heard Oral Arguments in this historic case, and on July 1, 2003 they upheld the District Court Order stating that matters like "In God We Trust" or God Save The United States and This Honorable Court" are immune from Establishment Clause challenges" because they have lost through rote repetition any significant religious content", quoting former Justice William Brennan.

The federal courts have now made it clear that we can acknowledge God only when it doesn't mean any thing - and when it does, it becomes unconstitutional

This gives new meaning to "Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain". -- Foundation for Moral Law, Inc.


Click here for Moore's case history and updates

Edited by - JK on 09/14/2003 1:10:10 PM
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JK
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Posted - 09/14/2003 :  1:11:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Sept 13 2003
THE BIRMINGHAM POST-HERALD
Leaders among the crowd compared their actions to the civil rights movement of the 1960s. Some evoked the memory of Dr. Martin Luther King, suggesting Justice Moore's defiance of a federal court order was in concert with the slain civil rights leader. In that spirit, the crowd sang, "We Shall Overcome."

It would actually be more accurate for these Christians to sing "We Shall Overturn." For the past 40 years Christians on the political right have been trying to overturn court decisions that ban teacher-led prayer and Scripture reading, and, of course, monuments of the Ten Commandments. But these prohibitions hardly constitute political oppression.

Click Here for story


The story presents an interesting perspective. Regardless, it should be noted that Alabama's state constitution declares that their justice system is established invoking the favor and guidance of this nation's birthright religous icon, "Almighty God."

It should also be noted that the U.S District Federal Court building, where the ruling to remove to Ten Commandments monument came from, has on display a large bust of Themis, the Greek god of law, attached on the outside of that federal building and near the front doors. Who is this god, Themis?

Themis is a staple in law offices, in the courts and on legal documents and letterheads. Most of us would probably recognize these statues and images to be of 'Lady Justice', holding a scale in one hand, a sword in the other, and blindfolded. Only a large face of this Greek god is displayed on the front of federal district court building (in Montgomery, Ala.), leaving this Greek god not immeadiately identifiable to most. Certainly a fancy public display of this Greek god - looks like the bust of Themis is mounted on a rich golden background.

Occupations associated with Themis include:

attorney
councilman
detective
D.A.
ecologist
judge
juror
librarian
paralegal
physicist
policeman
referee
senator
collective bargainer

Images related to Themis include:

The Statue of Liberty

Clay County Museum, west side of the square.

Delacroix, Liberty on the Barricades

Saint-Gaudens, The Shaw Memorial, U.S. Department of the Interior, National Park Service

Themis drawing, Department of Justice's Office of Small and Disadvantaged Business Utilization (OSDBU), U.S. Department of Justice

Themis images, ACLU's Main page, Large and small banner's, advertising banners and letterheads.

Click here for Judge Roy Moore's August 21, 2003 press conference statement.

Edited by - JK on 09/15/2003 1:01:10 PM
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kd4jfd
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Posted - 09/17/2003 :  10:43:02 AM  Show Profile  Click to see kd4jfd's MSN Messenger address  Send kd4jfd a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Here is another one. This is near me.

Story last updated at 12:07 a.m. on Wednesday, September 17, 2003

Minor delay for Barrow suit

By Beth Hatcher
beth.hatcher@onlineathens.com


A brief bump in the road has not deterred the American Civil Liberties Union from speeding ahead with a lawsuit asking for the removal of a Ten Commandments display within the Barrow County Courthouse.
The U.S. District Court in Gainesville notified the ACLU Tuesday morning by telephone that the lawsuit it had received against Barrow County commissioners could not continue until the ACLU submits the $150 filing fee.
''The check went in a different envelope,'' said Debbie Seagraves, executive director of the Atlanta-based ACLU of Georgia, explaining the mix-up.
Debra Harton, deputy in charge of the district court, said ACLU sent the money via overnight mail Tuesday. She expected the case to be officially filed today.
Barrow County defied a Friday deadline set by ACLU to remove the Ten Commandments display from a courthouse breezeway.
The American Center for Law and Justice, a Christian-based group founded by Pat Robertson in 1990, will defend the county, Barrow County Attorney Currie Mingledorff II said Tuesday. The county has 60 days to file a response to the suit.
Copies of the suit were sent Monday afternoon via overnight mail to both Barrow County and the federal clerk's office in Gainesville.
The lawsuit asks the federal court to order the removal of the display on the grounds it infringes on people's constitutional right to be free from government-sponsored religion, Seagraves said.
The plaintiff in the lawsuit is ''John Doe,'' an unidentified five-year Barrow County resident who first complained to the ACLU about the Ten Commandments display. The suit names as defendants Barrow County and Commission Chairman Eddie Elder, both in his official capacity and as an individual.
The suit contends that the display violates the establishment clause of the First Amendment to the Constitution: ''Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof. ...''
Fueled by private donations, the ACLJ will represent the county without charge. But if the county loses, it could be ordered to pay court costs, Mingledorff said.
Since the ACLU filed a letter June 16 asking the county to remove the display, Barrow County residents have loudly voiced their support for the display. Two hundred residents attended a June 30 meeting when commissioners voted unanimously to retain the display.
Frank Manion, ACLJ's lead defense lawyer, said he believes that groups like ACLU misinterpret the Constitution in their aims to free government buildings of certain religious references.
Manion admitted that a fine line exists between paying homage to American religious history and promoting a particular doctrine. The placement and use of the Barrow County display does not enforce Christian thought, he said.
The display's placement will be among several factors studied to determine its constitutionality.
''Something hung in a breezeway is something you can look at or not,'' Manion said.
But ACLU attorney Maggie Garrett maintained that she understood that the breezeway had to be traveled through to get to certain offices.
And, the ACLU sees the fight from a different perspective.
The case does not represent an attack on Christianity, Garrett said, but a defense of true religious freedom.
''The Constitution is there to protect the minority against the whim of the majority,'' she said.
The Barrow County case represents only a crossroads on the map of a nationwide controversy now rooted in Northeast Georgia. Franklin, Madison and Habersham counties have all adopted resolutions to display to ''the limit of their abilities'' the Ten Commandments.
Franklin County officials voted unanimously in July to display the Ten Commandments in the first floor of the Franklin County Courthouse in Carnesville.
Franklin County Commissioner Levy Moore had said that the document would be presented as a historical display.


Published in the Athens Banner-Herald on Wednesday, September 17, 2003.

539 - Repair work in progress!
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JK
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Catholic student wins bias suit

By David Ashenfelter

Dec 6 2003
The Detroit Free Press
DETROIT, Mich. - An Ann Arbor high school may have learned an expensive lesson in diversity Friday after a federal judge said it violated a student's constitutional rights by refusing to reflect her Catholic views in a panel discussion about gays and religion.

In a 70-page opinion, U.S. District Judge Gerald Rosen said Pioneer High School celebrated its diversity week in 2002 by inviting only pro-gay clerics to participate.

Student Betsy Hansen sued after school officials refused to let her sit on the panel or find a religious leader to express her views. Rosen said the school must pay her legal fees.

Hansen's lawyer, Robert Muise of the Thomas More Law Center in Ann Arbor, said Hansen's legal bill could be up to $100,000.

Ann Arbor school officials declined to discuss the ruling until they've reviewed it.

Click Here for source, DFP
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nannygoat
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Posted - 12/10/2003 :  07:51:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the ACLU has outlived its usefulness. It borders on the ridiculous. Bruce Cram, sir you seem to understand the intent of our founding fathers perfectly. I suppose if a piece of pornography were displayed the ACLU would have defended it most actively! The more we do away with common sense values, the worse our society becomes. What a shame.
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leftlanewannabe
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Posted - 12/14/2003 :  8:04:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
if ex cheif justice Moore wants to display the 10 comandments its ok with me as long as he does it in his domain (i.e. his house or church) not the public one. thats not his courthouse any more than its mine (Alabama taxpayer citizen here). this country was founded by folks who wanted freedom of religion, was kind of why they left England where they had a national religion. One of the freedoms that evolved from this was the right to no religion as well. suppose one who has chosen no religion for whatever reason and has to go to that courthouse and is confronted by that granite and the judge that put it there against court orders, how is he going to get a fair shake? some will argue well he dosn't have to disclose his religion or lack there of, but then neither does roy. i pray to God of the bible, i would not go so far as to say i am a Christian for the world pulls me this way and that from time to time, but imo roy put himself above the law he was appointed to uphold. futhermore with all the grandstanding and national press exposure it appears his motives may have been less than altruistic. and jk maybe the reason there are not enough replys for ya is people don't want to be rebuted by you for expressing their beliefs.
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Hoekstraguy
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Posted - 12/18/2003 :  09:14:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is one of those rare times where i agree with the ACLU, i've read extensively Thomas Jeffersons letters, and the constitutional debates leading up to the signing of the Constitution. First let's remember it took 12 years to come up with a document that all 13 colonies were willing to sign. One of the founding fathers key worries was the empowerment of religious organizations or small groups of individuals who would put personal opinion over precept and precedent. The reason the statue of justice is blindfolded is so that "facts" could be judged not moral opinion. Believing in a specific religion is fine, but to put a monument to one religion without having monuments to ALL religions indicates a preference to one religions beliefs over another. The courtroom is never a place to say my religion is right and yours is wrong. Religious testimony became outlawed at the salem with trials, due to the fact several accusers would say that satan had tempted and controlled them.

With that monument in the foyer many people would attempt to appeal convictions on the claim that the judges would be taking their prompts from the bible and not the law as written, and they would win since Mr. Moore pointed out how important the bible was in making his decisions. The U.S. Supreme Court upheld this point multiple times since the founding of our country stating, "Personal religious beliefs should not determine the guilt or innocence of an accused person."

During the recent Catholic church priest scandal the church spokesman stated several times, "The church is not answerable to the laws of man, but only to the judgement of God." That statement which Mr. Moore is on record as supporting, claims that certain individuals may act based on belief and aren't accountable to any law beyond that in the bible. So let's combine these 2 situations in a theoretical example.

I file charges against a priest in Mr. Moore's courtroom for molestation. The priest claims he isn't answerable to the laws of man and is supported by the church is his statement. Mr. Moore having already stated his support of this claim should not be allowed to judge any case that involves the church. If he is allowed to judge the case i already know that if i lose the case i can win appeal due to the judge religious bias on a case. Also you will notice the first amendment does NOT specify and religion at all, only that religion my be practiced freely by anyone.
So the first amendment is designed to protect the practice of any religion while promoting none. This is what is called, "original intent", and this is what our founding fathers wanted. Protection of all beliefs while promoting none. If Mr. Moore wants a display to the ten commandments then it needs to be placed in between Buddha, the Prophet Mohammed, The Satanic Cross, Bathsheba of the Hindus, an oak tree for Druids, a Pelen Tan' for the wiccans.

I'm sure you all get my point. Practice any religion you like but don't presume to judge me based on your moral preferences.

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JK
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Posted - 12/18/2003 :  10:26:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by leftlanewannabe

... and jk maybe the reason there are not enough replys for ya is people don't want to be rebuted by you for expressing their beliefs.



Yes, you're right. Facts, especially accurate historical facts, can cause those with opinions and only opinions not to risk a rebuttal from me or others. But, that does not seem to apply to everyone, does it. Nor should it. Enjoyed your post. (jk)
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JK
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Posted - 12/18/2003 :  1:02:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Hoekstraguy

... you will notice the first amendment does NOT specify and religion at all, only that religion my be practiced freely by anyone.
So the first amendment is designed to protect the practice of any religion while promoting none. This is what is called, "original intent", and this is what our founding fathers wanted. Protection of all beliefs while promoting none.

If Mr. Moore wants a display to the ten commandments then it needs to be placed in between Buddha, the Prophet Mohammed, The Satanic Cross, Bathsheba of the Hindus, an oak tree for Druids, a Pelen Tan' for the wiccans.

I'm sure you all get my point. Practice any religion you like but don't presume to judge me based on your moral preferences.



Well, what I'm reading in your post is simply not what the founders intended, according to the abundance of information available from the Library of Congress Archives -- and history, as it was taught in most public schools until threatened into omitting historical facts. Some public schools, however, continue to teach actual American History.

The intent of the ACLU, with the god Themis as their religous icon, is to remove any reference to the Christian's God in public areas, and including any historical reference in public school education. That's the intent and it isn't hidden. Nor will you find placed in between Themis at the ACLU, the Christian God, Buddha, the Prophet Mohammed, The Satanic Cross, Bathsheba of the Hindus, an oak tree for Druids, a Pelen Tan' for the wiccans.

The same is the case at the Federal court house, where the Ten Commandments issue was struck down. Nowhere on the front of that federal building, where proudly the head of the Greek god Themis sculpture is placed on a golden background, can be found in between that monument the Christian God, Buddha, the Prophet Mohammed, The Satanic Cross, Bathsheba of the Hindus, an oak tree for Druids, a Pelen Tan' for the wiccans.

Also, I'm somewhat at a loss as to why you stopped at Buddha, the Prophet Mohammed, The Satanic Cross, Bathsheba of the Hindus, an oak tree for Druids, a Pelen Tan' for the wiccans. Why did you stop there when there's hundreds of religions to be acknowledged, if that is your intent, in order to fulfill some intelectual demand.

The basis of American law itself, and American ethics, predominate at Yale, Harvard and other 'Seminaries' - yes, they were once religious institutions prior to takeover - are all structured around Judeo-Christian works and Christianity when founding this country played the overwhelming role - not the other religions you mentioned. It is only in the last fifty or so years that revisionist judges, having no constitutional authority to do so, have reinterpreted for the constitution, rather than interpreting from the constitution.

There are many judges, not just Moore, that find the 'get God out of government and public schools crowd, claims to be utterly without foundation in law or historical fact. Getting rid of the Christian God or religion in government is a personal demand and opinion - not law - coming from a few, not the many. And as mentioned earlier in this thread, "provoked by the behavior of special interests, some politicians, educrats and the courts; ignoring the actual intentions behind the constitution, but imposing their personal inventions on regular folks."

Realizing, of course, that I can make no claim of anything other than having a passing interest no expert by any means and that the reality, I must yield to one of this Nation's greatest experts, The Honorable William Renquest, Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court. He said:

"There is simply no historical foundation for the proposition that the framers intended to build the wall of separation. The wall of separation between church and state is a metaphor, based on bad history and worse law ... a metaphor which has proved useless as a guide to judges; it should be, frankly, and explicitly, abandoned."

Jefferson himself, expressed outrage at reporters and others presenting him as a constitutional expert. He, himself, Thomas Jefferson, often with anger in his voice rebuked such whims of fantasy. So for what reason are you and others puffing him up, when he repeatedly demanded that sort of thing stop?

Had you said there is no religious persecution of Christians in this country, as some have said there is, then we could agree. Is there religious discrimination directed against Christians and their God? Yes, most certainly.

Muslim, wiccan and other documents and symbols are becoming more prevalent in public schools, and often protected under free speech and free expression claims. Cursing, using God's name in vain, is also defended as free speech by the ACLU. There are public schools even providing a special room for Muslim children to pray in at taxpayer expense. Most often it's only when the Christian Bible and their God is on the scene that a noise from the ACLU threatens.

Nothing in your post do I deny as your opinion, but studied and factual? I would suppose it so. People do seem to see history differently and for whatever the purpose might be. I can agree with you on that as well.

My position is simple enough for the majority to understand. I acknowledge, on behalf of historical foundation evidence, that the Christian God and Christianity has a place of honor in American History, specific to the founding, growth and success of this nation, separate from other alleged deities and religions from other countries proudly promoted as their deity and their religion in their countries.

And I can find no objection from the majority in this nation to Moore's monument, nor the thousands upon thousands of public Christian monuments, statutes, moldings, artifacts, documents, in Washington DC alone, as well as no majority objection to celebrated religous holidays or other events that remain for civil acknowledgement and celebration in public and in our public schools.

What astonishes me endlessly, is that the God thing and the Christian religions ever became an issue in this nation's courts. The courts have no authority whatsoever involving themselves in this issue. It is at the very most a state authority issue (legislative - controlled by the citizenry within their communities), not the federal government or the U.S. courts domain. If you read the debates during the making of the Constitution, then you would likely have found this assertion presented more than once.

Check out England's history and the courts involvement on behalf of the king (not the people), prior to the flee of the religous to Europe and then America. It may help enlighten you, and go far to help explain what the founders of this nation where actually intending. (jk)

"The great political idea, sanctifying freedom and consecrating it to God, teaching men to treasure the liberties of others as their own, and to defend them for the love of justice and charity more than as a right, has been the soul of what is great and good in the progress of the last two hundred years." --John Emerich Edward Dalberg Acton (Lord Acton, 1843-1902) renown English historian and Regius Professor of Modern History at Cambridge University, England.

Face to Face

Early Schools


If you haven't much education you must use your brain.

Edited by - JK on 12/18/2003 2:23:38 PM
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JK
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Posted - 12/18/2003 :  2:30:28 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by rswboe

There is a point that many, if most people seem to be missing. Like it or not, the Ten Commandments are probably the oldest known example of written law, and possess historical significance as such. ...


Very well put, in my opinion. The rest of the post was excellent as well. (jk)
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