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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2020 :  07:25:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Posting here for those who leave not the garage section.

https://www.wlwt.com/article/surveillance-camera-captures-school-bus-crash-that-injured-2-students-in-brown-county/30756792

Looks like it was running a lil fast there, but the final report will take a few days.

Bluenozer
Top Member

Canada
640 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2020 :  07:49:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
a little fast for the ditch anyway

OEM trained in wiring and all engine platforms for over 20 years
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unclefish
Senior Member

113 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2020 :  07:56:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for posting , it happends fast. Glad everyone is OK
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2020 :  10:22:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for posting. It sure does happen fast. Looked like the driver might have been going fast for that road. But who knows. Hard to second guess someone if you have no idea what the road even looks like. Glad everyone is ok.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2020 :  10:52:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'll probably end up ordering the crash report and photos from the patrol when they are available, always interesting to see what they come up with as a final cause.

7 years ago today I had one on it's side (not me driving). If that never happens again, that's fine.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2020 :  07:28:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

I'll probably end up ordering the crash report and photos from the patrol when they are available, always interesting to see what they come up with as a final cause.

7 years ago today I had one on it's side (not me driving). If that never happens again, that's fine.



Scary. BTW, does anyone know, exactly, how those students died at Chattanooga? I'm trying to figure out if they exited the bus via a window.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2020 :  4:09:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Meaning how they exited post-crash? Video was shown at the drivers trial, I watched it not long ago. Most exited from the opening where the windshield used to be, some went out the back door with assistance of people who stopped to help.

I don't think there were ejections in that crash. I'll have to look at the report again to confirm. There were three collisions, bus with curb, bus rollover, bus with tree. Passengers left the seats in the first two collisions and were thrown into the area of roof crush.

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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2020 :  04:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Correction: 3 ejections, all seated in the first three rows of the left side, all ejected when the roof hit the tree, so I'd have to think those were out the windshield (report doesn't say). All three survived.
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2020 :  12:35:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FWIW the NTSB report on that Chattanooga crash, as well as one in Maryland, can be found here:
http://wrcb.images.worldnow.com/library/acf76a87-ec05-4a4e-a7e6-1030c81d923f.pdf
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  08:25:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Explicit language advisory on this one...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/video-shows-moment-perry-county-school-bus-overturned/ Different crash, this one happened in December, and the patrol just released the on board video.

Severe roof deformation of the brand new bus was caused when it struck a guard rail as it overturned and slid. That kept the bus from sliding down a small embankment.

Some news stations are reporting that the driver of the car tested positive for meth. Charges still pending.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  10:59:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Explicit language advisory on this one...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/video-shows-moment-perry-county-school-bus-overturned/ Different crash, this one happened in December, and the patrol just released the on board video.

Severe roof deformation of the brand new bus was caused when it struck a guard rail as it overturned and slid. That kept the bus from sliding down a small embankment.




Yes, I'm talking about ejection. I want to gather information on fatalities where the student died while riding the bus. My theory is that if we were able to keep the windows in the bus then we would reduce fatalities. I don't think seat belts are the answer.

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  11:30:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
I'm talking about ejection. I want to gather information on fatalities where the student died while riding the bus. My theory is that if we were able to keep the windows in the bus then we would reduce fatalities. I don't think seat belts are the answer.


Coincidentally I was wondering the same thing last weekend. Not specifically about ejection, but basically how do kids die on school buses. I found the following school bus related investigations in the NTSB records. Toward the top of each report there should be a mention of the fatalities but you may have to dig a bit to get info specific to ejections.

Summaries are my own. Hope this helps!

Bronson, FL, truck runs intersection and strikes school bus. No evasive action reasonable.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR8902.pdf

Alton, TX bus struck by truck at intersection and ends up in water, 11 students drown.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR9002.pdf

Bus leaves roadway on steep descent. Improper descending technique, out-of-adjustment brakes (manual slacks)
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR9301.pdf

Snyder, OK, bus pulls into path of tractor trailer.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR9404.pdf

Fox Grove IL, bus struck by train, inadequate containment after crossing and driver unaware of approaching train.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR9602.pdf

Central Bridge, NY, bus runs stop sign and is struck by truck. Age and/or medical condition of driver.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR0002.pdf

Conasauga, TN, struck by train. Incomplete attention to crossing routine.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR0103.pdf

Mountainburg, AR, truck with bad brakes runs stop sign and strikes bus
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR0203.aspx

Herndon, KY, driver distracted by student and leaves highway, rolls.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB0204.pdf

Ganado, AZ, distracted driver drives off road and rolls.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/accidentreports/reports/hab0205.pdf

Chappell Hill, TX, distracted and tired truck driver rear-ends stopped bus.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB0216.pdf

Omaha, bus jumps bridge rail in construction zone. Driver unfamiliarity with vehicle, bad work zone design.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR0401.aspx

Arlington, VA, Bus sideswipes garbage truck. Bus driver fatigued and distracted.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB0801.pdf

Milton, FL, bus PITTs itself against car in next lane, spins and rolls twice. Driver inattention. No fatalities. Seat belts.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB0903.pdf

Gray Summit, MO, buses crashed into stopped traffic. Failure to scan road ahead, too close following distance.
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR1103.pdf

Port t. Lucie, FL, bus turns left across oncoming traffic.

Chesterfield, NJ, bus pulls out into cross traffic and is hit by truck. Driver fatigue, truck overweight/underbraked.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR1301.pdf

Davis, OK, tractor-trailer crosses interstate and strikes school bus
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HAR1503.aspx

Houston, TX, car bumped bus which jumped guardrail and fell off bridge.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB1605.pdf

Knoxville, bus swerves to miss stopped traffic and collides with an oncoming bus. Distracted.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB-16-04.pdf

Anaheim, CA, bus went off the road. Driver passed out; concealed medical issues from administration.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB1606.pdf

Baltimore, MD, bus driver had seizure and crashed into other vehicles. History of seizures (and some resultant bus crashes) was not acted on.
Chattanooga, TN, bus ran off road and overturned. Driver with known bad record was not fired in time.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/SIR1802.pdf

Thief River Falls, MN. Child hit by car when crossing road. Bus driver missed stop, child not used to crossing this way.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAB1817.pdf

Oakland, IA, driver backs into ditch, bus catches fire. Severe mobility problems with driver not addressed by school district.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/HAR1901.pdf

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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  12:21:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wow! Thanks for the information. I'll have to take some time and go through these. How far back do they go? Are they comprehensive?

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  12:54:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The older ones (they are in chron order) are PDF scans of typewritten reports and hard to read through quickly. I don't think there's much before what's listed (late '80s). I searched for "school bus" in the NTSB docs and got something like 900 hits, many of them duplicates because there are multiple reports for a given incident, as well as any mention of school bus in presentations or overview reports. I really think I have most of them; by the time I got maybe 1/3 of the way through the search I wasn't finding anything new. There was a mention of that second Port St. Lucie one where I have no reference; it was mentioned but I couldn't find a report.

There are many many school bus accidents that aren't reported here, as the NTSB generally only investigates fatals or occasionally nonfatals that are of technical interest. They are very pro seat belt.

If I'd known you were going to ask this :) I'd have called out the ejection in my summary but I think I identified most of the rollovers and bridge falls and those are the biggest ejection risks.

So glad I could help someone with this!
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2020 :  1:09:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not NTSB (so no detailed investigation) but ejection death:
https://www.cbs19.tv/article/news/update-ntsb-wont-investigate-fatal-athens-isd-bus-crash/501-7d6b6ad2-ccd8-405e-b785-f6203f862ab8
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2020 :  04:21:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
NTSB reports are good reading if you have that "engineering nerd" personality like I do.

I also recommend you search the public dockets for all related info from each crash. You'll find everything from witness statement transcripts to vehicle photos, pretty much everything used in the investigation process.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2020 :  04:27:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

[/quote]

Yes, I'm talking about ejection. I want to gather information on fatalities where the student died while riding the bus. My theory is that if we were able to keep the windows in the bus then we would reduce fatalities. I don't think seat belts are the answer.
[/quote]

I'm getting on board with the theory that if we lessen the severity of the crash, we will save lives. I don't like the idea of belts either.

I was at a Bendix/IC demo last year where we were on a bus with Bendix Wingman Fusion, and the guy was trying to crash the thing, the system always acted if the driver didn't.

No, it won't prevent all crashes, but if it reacts and lowers the speed of the bus before a crash, we come out ahead.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2020 :  09:37:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24





Yes, I'm talking about ejection. I want to gather information on fatalities where the student died while riding the bus. My theory is that if we were able to keep the windows in the bus then we would reduce fatalities. I don't think seat belts are the answer.
[/quote]

I'm getting on board with the theory that if we lessen the severity of the crash, we will save lives. I don't like the idea of belts either.

I was at a Bendix/IC demo last year where we were on a bus with Bendix Wingman Fusion, and the guy was trying to crash the thing, the system always acted if the driver didn't.

No, it won't prevent all crashes, but if it reacts and lowers the speed of the bus before a crash, we come out ahead.
[/quote]

I would be in favor of something like this as well. My theory is that many older students won't wear seatbelts anyway. So, why go to the expense? I think if we could have laminated side windows that are glued in, we could take deaths to zero. I have the ear of a state representative here. I think, if I had some good information, he could craft a bill based on my info.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2020 :  11:13:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My only concern with laminate glass is the difficulty of breaking it for emergency egress. See NTSB for Alton, Texas crash in the 80s. Bus submerged, multiple drownings, those trying to save the kids reported the glass wasn't able to be broken out, it was laminate.

The Fox River Grove bus had laminate glass. It was a 1992 build. Was it a screw up or have your state specs changed since then? Ohio allows Laminated or tempered in passenger windows.
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2020 :  1:59:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24No, it won't prevent all crashes, but if it reacts and lowers the speed of the bus before a crash, we come out ahead.



Looking through the list, at first glance it seems practically NONE of them would have been changed much by better brakes. Side impacts, driver passing out, driver steering off the pavement, sideswipes... plenty of these cases had little relevant brake application.

Now, I'm not familiar with Wingman Fusion so maybe there were cases where that would have kept buses from going out of control. For instance I just don't get how a Toyota can bump a bus and send it over a guardrail and off a bridge. Getting rid of all of that kinetic energy makes a HUGE difference in the outcome of a crash, but insufficient braking ability was rarely or never cited.

I'm looking forward to the info you compile on ejections and window integrity. Every day I admire the beautiful visibility out the back of my C2 when I turn around, but I bet it comes at the expense of integrity. Heck, some of those big last-row C2 windows open themselves.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2020 :  08:20:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

My only concern with laminate glass is the difficulty of breaking it for emergency egress. See NTSB for Alton, Texas crash in the 80s. Bus submerged, multiple drownings, those trying to save the kids reported the glass wasn't able to be broken out, it was laminate.

The Fox River Grove bus had laminate glass. It was a 1992 build. Was it a screw up or have your state specs changed since then? Ohio allows Laminated or tempered in passenger windows.



Yes, in Illinois we have the option of laminated or tempered. I understand what you are saying about being able to break the glass in those situations. However, I think the added side emergency windows and roof emergency hatches would offset that, correct?

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2020 :  11:45:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If the responders know about them or have the presence of mind to identify and operate them. Underwater, that's pretty unlikely.
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2020 :  11:55:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I looked up Wingman Fusion. Cool. I bet it would have helped in some of those situations, especially Gray Summit (would have helped both buses), Chappell Hill and Knoxville. A system that applied itself automatically would help when the driver is incapacitated, as happened in Anaheim and Baltimore.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2020 :  12:24:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ACL

I looked up Wingman Fusion. Cool. I bet it would have helped in some of those situations, especially Gray Summit (would have helped both buses), Chappell Hill and Knoxville. A system that applied itself automatically would help when the driver is incapacitated, as happened in Anaheim and Baltimore.



Interesting

Bryan
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dennis461
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2020 :  4:16:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit dennis461's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have seat belts in NJ. But we cannot make children wear them.
Almost no-one pulls them tight, so they actually may do more damage than good, strangulation.

Kids die from blunt force trauma to the head. Head is doing 40MPH, bus flips, side of bus on the ground is doing 0 mph. Head splits. Seen this happen once in NJ. Don't need ejection.

Some statistics here, but not the detail needed regarding ejection
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812476
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2020 :  07:47:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dennis461

We have seat belts in NJ. But we cannot make children wear them.
Almost no-one pulls them tight, so they actually may do more damage than good, strangulation.

Kids die from blunt force trauma to the head. Head is doing 40MPH, bus flips, side of bus on the ground is doing 0 mph. Head splits. Seen this happen once in NJ. Don't need ejection.

Some statistics here, but not the detail needed regarding ejection
https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/812476



I haven't had a spare moment to look at the reports but I still contend if we keep the passengers inside the bus it would be better than seatbelts that aren't worn and windows that break out and allow passengers to be ejected from the bus.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2020 :  12:36:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In my state all buses built after approx. Sept 2019 are required to have seat belts. Local school boards are advised to develop policies mandating their use.
Once the powers that be came to the conclusion that student discipline issues were reduced when students were belted, any arguments against seat belts on buses were lost.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/16/2020 :  06:42:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Explicit language advisory on this one...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/video-shows-moment-perry-county-school-bus-overturned/ Different crash, this one happened in December, and the patrol just released the on board video.


Maybe it's just me, but I am thinking that driver could put his ******* cell phone back in his pocket and check on his kids who are outside in what looks like snow.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  05:21:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ACL

quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Explicit language advisory on this one...

https://www.nbc4i.com/news/local-news/video-shows-moment-perry-county-school-bus-overturned/ Different crash, this one happened in December, and the patrol just released the on board video.


Maybe it's just me, but I am thinking that driver could put his ******* cell phone back in his pocket and check on his kids who are outside in what looks like snow.



You don't think he/she was trying to call 911?

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  07:07:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I assume he was. He tried to radio dispatch at the beginning and maybe didn't get through. The main thing that struck me was he was hanging around after the [injured] students were out and was still there when the video ended.

Just commenting on what I see. And kudos to him for being fit enough at 74 to even get out of the seatbelt in that situation.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  08:31:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, that was a rough ride.
I have been looking at the reports. One (the one with the Minotour) that I have seen so far has had students thrown from the bus. I still think if they were kept inside the bus they would have had a much better chance to survive. Does anyone know compliance rate for the states that have seat belts now? If they collect that information. If they do, I wonder how it's collected?

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  08:48:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We probably need to handle the data a bit differently if we want to get anything from it. We should probably put it into a table with fatality type and related info pulled out separately. I'm coming from the prevention side and you're coming from the survivability side and I think that's a great combo. Want to drop it into a Google spreadsheet, or should I? We can add more incidents to it as well.

And incidents happen all the time. Google "school bus crash" and there are plenty of recent hits. Of course it's on the national level because of the attention, and the frequency is comparable to car crashes on the local level. Still, if you're looking for ejection deaths I imagine all or nearly all of the incidents will have NTSB reports.

We do not have student seat belts so I don't have firsthand knowledge of how that is managed.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  09:23:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sounds like a great idea! It takes a little reading to get to the part about how the deaths occured. From my perspective, if we could have the number of deaths and show how many were ejected. Then show how many would have stayed inside the bus and therefore have a higher probability of surviving. I think, if you show it as a percentage of deaths, it would be a large number. Add to that real seat belt compliance numbers, I think we could show how laminated windows are better. Of course, if the numbers don't show that, then it proves the opposite. I might then become a proponent of seat belts.

Bryan
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ACL
Senior Member

USA
53 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2020 :  09:26:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There was a pretty decent investigation about this 20 years ago. There's a LOT to read in this report. Maybe there's a newer one?

https://www.ntsb.gov/news/events/Documents/truck_bus-SIR9904.pdf
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2020 :  03:42:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In talking with a friend who's rolled a bus before, I'd say the driver probably just couldn't process that it was really happening. In her crash, the kids got up and started off the bus without being directed to do so. They really DO pay attention to the training we give every year.

It wasn't until the bus was empty that it really hit her that it was really happening and she wasn't going to wake up from a bad dream.

I hope to never find out what it's like.

The video shows him radioing for help, but radio antennas don't transmit too well with the bus on it's side. Times like this make me thankful that there's about 30 cell phones on a bus nowadays.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2020 :  09:13:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Times like this make me thankful that there's about 30 cell phones on a bus nowadays.



I agree. Even though they are a source of contention sometimes.

Bryan
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