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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
 Posted - 01/23/2019 : 04:28:42 AM
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Do not want to stir up a hornets nest but look at the pros and cons of seatbelts on school buses
I am sure you are aware May 2018 for the first time, the National Transportation Safety Board is recommending all new school buses be equipped with lap and shoulder seat belts, after the agency released findings from a special investigation report prompted by two deadly 2016 crashes. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and NASDPTS had already supported a movement to mandate seatbelts on school buses, now that all 3 align it will not be if but when this happens.
I have reached out to several districts who run seatbelts and received very good reviews. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2019 : 3:03:08 PM
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| I have been and continue to be opposed to them. They require the student take an action to implement this safety device. I'd rather see laminated windows. |
Bryan |
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Bluenozer
Top Member
Canada
644 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 02:48:34 AM
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| it wold have to wired to a system that showed all seats and if they were buckled or not, then hooked to the engine to derate it, if a belt became unbuckled, then the bus would have to pull over( not safe) and does the driver look after this or do we spend more taxes on a person just to buckle and unbuckle kids , and of course the longer stops at every stop , but that wouldn't increase the number of red violations would it, imagine the stops times would increase enough that the fleets would have to add more buses to shorten the time students spend on the bus(NS has a 60 minute limit for a student to be on the bus) so thats a big NO from me on this topic |
OEM trained in wiring and all engine platforms for over 20 years
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Edited by - Bluenozer on 01/24/2019 02:49:52 AM |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 02:57:55 AM
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| If in fact older buses do not have to be installed with seatbelts costing time and money some school depts.money they may not have I can see some debate, but I cant see how having new buses seatbelt equipped is a bad idea . Folks want to argue the point that kids may or may not use them , be confused or trapped by them in case of emergency ? When we already have the youngest riders wearing seatbelts already at least in our county .True kids have to take responsibility to use the seatbelts im sure some kids wont so be it , but for the ones that do good on them . But if you ask the average person hey you have to ride this bus and were going to run head on into another vehicle you can choose to wear or not to wear your seatbelt I can guarantee every tom , * and harry are likely to buckle up . |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 04:01:15 AM
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| When this comes to reality, we all need to push for language that does not apply liability to the driver or bus owner in the event a student doesn't buckle up or unbelts while on the road. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 05:23:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td083
If in fact older buses do not have to be installed with seatbelts costing time and money some school depts.money they may not have I can see some debate, but I cant see how having new buses seatbelt equipped is a bad idea . Folks want to argue the point that kids may or may not use them , be confused or trapped by them in case of emergency ? When we already have the youngest riders wearing seatbelts already at least in our county .True kids have to take responsibility to use the seatbelts im sure some kids wont so be it , but for the ones that do good on them . But if you ask the average person hey you have to ride this bus and were going to run head on into another vehicle you can choose to wear or not to wear your seatbelt I can guarantee every tom , * and harry are likely to buckle up .
Why would you put something on a bus that will only cover part of the students when you could put an item on a bus that will protect all students? The logic with seatbelts is really puzzling to me. |
Bryan |
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tkorpal
Active Member
28 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 05:50:10 AM
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| I personally am opposed to seat belts...Mesquite Texas, school bus rolled over caught fire student died because could not get out of seat belt. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 06:33:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by tkorpal
I personally am opposed to seat belts...Mesquite Texas, school bus rolled over caught fire student died because could not get out of seat belt.
So, sad. I know I'm a small voice in an ocean of seat belt advocates but the deaths we are seeing are from kids getting outside the bus through broken windows. If we can keep them inside the bus, we will eliminate this problem. With seatbelts you can't achieve 100% compliance and so you cannot guarantee that you are going to prevent children from leaving the bus. Someone tell me where I'm going wrong here. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 06:55:38 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by tkorpal
I personally am opposed to seat belts...Mesquite Texas, school bus rolled over caught fire student died because could not get out of seat belt.
So, sad. I know I'm a small voice in an ocean of seat belt advocates but the deaths we are seeing are from kids getting outside the bus through broken windows. If we can keep them inside the bus, we will eliminate this problem. With seatbelts you can't achieve 100% compliance and so you cannot guarantee that you are going to prevent children from leaving the bus. [B]Someone tell me where I'm going wrong here.[B/]
Too logical  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 01/24/2019 06:57:01 AM |
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 07:42:46 AM
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I don't disagree bwest, but what happens when the windows are down? This is my argument about tinted windows, white roof and no AC. Useless as you-know-what.
I think we'd save more lives if we spent seatbelt money outside the bus where more injuries and deaths occur. Detectors or sensors in the danger zone; different loading lights; bigger stop arm; brake/door interlock; stop arm cameras with stricter penalties, etc. Seatbelts will save lives or claim lives based on the dynamics of the accident. More protection for students outside the bus will only save lives and not claim lives. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 10:03:39 AM
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| Sherm, I can't disagree with what you're saying. However, this seatbelt thing is like a falling tree. It's already started to fall and there's not a lot we are going to be able to do except maybe make it hit the ground in a different spot than it's headed for now. That's the reason I think if you educated people about what actually kills victims of a school bus crash, you would conclude that we need to keep them inside the bus. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 12:23:37 PM
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| Too many interior bus cam videos have been seen of occupants being tossed around inside bus in an accident, just as well clear the path of the falling tree. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 1:57:48 PM
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| I have spoken to several districts that are running seat belts and was a little surprised that they had very positive reviews. I also have concerns about fire which led me to also look at the fire suppression systems. |
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dferrell
Senior Member
102 Posts |
Posted - 01/24/2019 : 2:11:56 PM
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I would be surprised if they aren't required everywhere within the next few years.
Parents and lawmakers aren't sold on the idea of compartmentalization. They believe that since it is safer for their car to have seatbelts, then school busses need them too.
We have had them here in California since 2006. The California law says that the driver has to tell the kids and enforce them to wear seatbelts but if the kids decide not to or takes it off, then the driver is not held liable. Obviously it has to be this way because there is no way any driver can always ensure everyone is buckled.
I myself am skeptical of the benefits of seatbelts in schoolbuses, but I will say that there are some aspects that have actually been positive. One thing we notice is that since the seats with seatbelts are taller, it makes it harder for kids (especially the smaller ones), to try to interact with everyone around them. They tend to just interact more with the other kids in their own seat or the one next to it. Less standing, moving around, yelling to other kids on the bus, etc. It is definitely up to the driver to still control all this, but I think this can actually be easier with seat belts if the driver is diligent. I drove a route yesterday that it was obvious the driver doesn't enforce wearing seatbelts and it was a lost cause.
All kids that are in school now are used to wearing seatbelts in just about every other vehicle. Many of them just get on and automatically just put them on like normal. Others, (especially the older kids), try to fight it.
We originally had concerns about kids using them as weapons, cutting them, etc. but honestly, we have had zero problems with any of that. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 04:26:34 AM
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The higher seats you speak of have been required in new buses for my state since 1-1-90...you get used to it and nowadays nobody even notices them anymore.
I was always curious if belts improved behavior. |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 05:47:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by td083
If in fact older buses do not have to be installed with seatbelts costing time and money some school depts.money they may not have I can see some debate, but I cant see how having new buses seatbelt equipped is a bad idea . Folks want to argue the point that kids may or may not use them , be confused or trapped by them in case of emergency ? When we already have the youngest riders wearing seatbelts already at least in our county .True kids have to take responsibility to use the seatbelts im sure some kids wont so be it , but for the ones that do good on them . But if you ask the average person hey you have to ride this bus and were going to run head on into another vehicle you can choose to wear or not to wear your seatbelt I can guarantee every tom , * and harry are likely to buckle up .
Why would you put something on a bus that will only cover part of the students when you could put an item on a bus that will protect all students? The logic with seatbelts is really puzzling to me.
I don't disagree with you on windows im sure its a good idea , im just not against seatbelts if in fact older buses wont have to be installed with them . Again with or without them I feel kids are very safe in general and statistically speaking when riding school buses versus mom or dads car . But just a little questionable our buses are armed to the teeth with $$$ emissions equipment that plagues us with issues to possibly lower carbon emissions by .0000001 % because were all going to die from global warming the day after tomorrow  . But we don't have seatbelts ? |
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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 05:47:30 AM
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| dferrell, that is what I am hearing. Like I said earlier I was a little surprised at all the positive reviews. I also believe with the National Transportation Safety Board changing their stance, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and NASDPTS all pushing for seatbelts at a Federal level I think it is when not if we see it. I know their is a lot of opposition from school districts not running them but as I have been ask to do a presentation at a couple conferences this summer I am trying to gather information form all aspects of it. THANK ALL FOR RESPONCES and keeping it positive even if you oppose. It is information and questions that I am after THANKS |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 06:44:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wwinters
dferrell, that is what I am hearing. Like I said earlier I was a little surprised at all the positive reviews. I also believe with the National Transportation Safety Board changing their stance, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration and NASDPTS all pushing for seatbelts at a Federal level I think it is when not if we see it. I know their is a lot of opposition from school districts not running them but as I have been ask to do a presentation at a couple conferences this summer I am trying to gather information form all aspects of it. THANK ALL FOR RESPONSES and keeping it positive even if you oppose. It is information and questions that I am after THANKS
We're pretty well always "keep it positive" on here. We might get frustrated but we are all intelligent enough to use our minds and words to champion or oppose a topic. This is the main reason I love this forum. |
Bryan |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 08:32:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dferrell
We originally had concerns about kids using them as weapons, cutting them, etc. but honestly, we have had zero problems with any of that.
I keep hearing this on Face book and in the news, but I don't ever remember hearing anyone post that it actually happened. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 09:02:46 AM
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I've accepted that it's most likely coming. This is a sad defense to use, but my real concern now is this:
I have 24 route buses. I replace 2. The new ones have belts. Now 2 routes have belts and 22 do not. How do you justify who got the belts and who didn't? |
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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 09:30:54 AM
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Well put Bryan,
Thomasbus24, I understand where you are coming from and agree, but here is my fear. Ohio had HB 680 and this is how it reads
(B) On and after July 1, 2019, no school, school district ,
person, or governmental entity shall purchase, own, lease, or
rent a school bus unless the school bus is equipped with
occupant restraining devices in sufficient number to allow each
passenger to use an occupant restraining device.
(C) Whoever violates this section is guilty of a minor
misdemeanor.
As you can see it reads that if you OWN it will have to be equipped which will be a cost of 7,300-10,000 per bus to do so. If they do not add funding into a bill IF it is Federally mandated it will be a big problem for most school districts. ***I DID SPEAK WITH LEGISLATORS FROM OHIO AND DUE TO TERM LIMITS THE SPONSOR OF THIS BILL IS NO LONGER SEATED AND THE BILL HAD DIED*** I was told it could and may be sponsored again in the weeks to come. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 10:39:49 AM
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Yes, I watched that bill very carefully. I would like to know how long it would take to even GET that many seatbelts/seatframes/etc. into our hands to retrofit all of these buses. No way the deadline was attainable.
How tragic that Mr. Dumb*** is no longer seated. |
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dferrell
Senior Member
102 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 10:41:09 AM
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| In California the law says that only new buses built after July 2006 (I think) had to be equipped with seatbelts. Buses built before that were grandfathered in. I was told that it's because the older buses were never designed or engineered to have seatbelts. You can't just bolt new seats in with seatbelts if the structure of the bus was never designed for it. |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 01/25/2019 : 11:07:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by dferrell
In California the law says that only new buses built after July 2006 (I think) had to be equipped with seatbelts. Buses built before that were grandfathered in. I was told that it's because the older buses were never designed or engineered to have seatbelts. You can't just bolt new seats in with seatbelts if the structure of the bus was never designed for it.
That is a true statement |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 01/27/2019 : 2:48:37 PM
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| In Alberta the operator of a vehicle is responsible to see that all passengers under 18 years of age are wearing there seat belt. It will be a challenge. |
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schoolbusadmirer777
New Member
2 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2019 : 6:26:00 PM
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This is a speech I did. It is all research based, on a research article I seem to have lost. The title was similar to 50 reasons schoolbuses should not have seatbelts.
Today, I would like to talk to you about seatbelts on school buses, and why these are neither feasible nor wise. One reason seat belts on school buses are dangerous is that seatbelts often counteract many of the passive safety features on a school bus and this could cause harm to a child. School bus seat belts also carry with them many different institutional concerns. Finally, many older buses are less optimized for ease of access to different internal components of the school bus and, moreover, school buses were not designed with seatbelt systems in mind.
There are many instances where a seat belt would be unbeneficial and even harmful. This is due to three things. Firstly, seat belts on school buses, depending on where they are attached and the uniqueness of passengers, could cause many different injuries, such as the child being torn apart. Secondly, seatbelts may hinder or prevent evacuations of school buses, especially if they do not have retractor mechanisms. Finally, seat belts are active systems, meaning the child would have to perform an action to ensure their “safety,” while the current compartmentalized seats perform the same task with better results. Compartmentalized seats can also provide better protection from rear angle collisions, a benefit seat belts do not provide.
There are many institutional concerns of putting seatbelts on a school bus. If a district were to require seat belt usage and actually enforce it, this would create much extra work for the driver and distract him from the road, most likely a much more dangerous situation. This would also make overall time on the bus longer, as children have to both buckle and unbuckle their seatbelts, and if the release and design of the seatbelt are different from the family car, it will make it even more difficult for the children. If a district were not to institute such a policy, it is quite probable that most of that weight would have been added for nothing. Also, if seat belts were installed, someone would have to check to see if the seat belts were tampered with, and this raises issues on the maintenance front.
Maintenance concerns from installing seatbelts are copious. Most importantly, seatbelts will exert a load on the school bus that was never designed or accounted for because the students, every time the bus stops, exert a great load on the bus. This, of course, is assuming that there is an enforced policy that requires students to wear the seat belts. If this is not the case, the loads on the bus will be non-uniform and even more dangerous as a result. This will require serious structural modifications. Comparatively less important, but still significant, is that the added weight of the seatbelts may require a better engine and/or more fuel. This would possibly derail the dream of feasible alternative energy school buses for some time. And last, but certainly not the least of the concerns relating to this issue, is the fact that the seatbelts would have to be maintained, as mentioned before.
Ultimately, I believe that seatbelts on school buses are a bad decision overall. As we all go home today, most of us on school buses, take a moment to remember this argument. Of course there is a human side to this argument. Of course many parents would feel much safer if their children wore seatbelts. But let’s also remember that in most scenarios, the children would be happier without seat belts. Let’s remember that in most cases, the children would have an easier time staying safe by evacuating without seatbelts than with them. And finally, remember that only 11 out of 24 million children die each year on school buses, and some of those deaths could have been prevented. Are all the previously mentioned tradeoffs really worth it? |
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BigPapa
Advanced Member
215 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2019 : 05:46:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by schoolbusadmirer777
This is a speech I did. It is all research based, on a research article I seem to have lost. The title was similar to 50 reasons schoolbuses should not have seatbelts.
Good start. I don't think the extra weight is an issue though.
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Bryan |
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td083
Senior Member
195 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2019 : 06:48:16 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by schoolbusadmirer777
This is a speech I did. It is all research based, on a research article I seem to have lost. The title was similar to 50 reasons schoolbuses should not have seatbelts.
Good start. I don't think the extra weight is an issue though.
The issue I have here is the driver being responsible to enforce use , a mandatory isle check when leaving ok , but the constant enforcement needs to be spelled out more clearly so no driver is ever responsible .
One to ponder is if the crop of new bus drivers is getting harder and harder to find will this in fact cause more bus accidents, and do to districts scraping the bottom of the barrel to find bodys to drive buses , hence making it more of a reason to now consider more safety measures in buses (belts, windows)etc.... Both deadly accidents last year were considered driver error in one case known seizure issue occurred in the other cell phone use of a driver that had already been reprimanded previously .
We had a driver last week went down a one way street in which there was no way to turn around , instead of having his assistant back him down the street from taking the wrong turn he decides the opening in a fence to a cemetery was a good option goes into the cemetery to turn around destroys several tombstones and then gets the bus stuck in mud after driving all over the cemetery ..Not kidding <<<these are sometimes the folks were dealing with these days and it may get worse |
Edited by - td083 on 01/30/2019 06:49:52 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2019 : 08:01:20 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by td083
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by schoolbusadmirer777
This is a speech I did. It is all research based, on a research article I seem to have lost. The title was similar to 50 reasons schoolbuses should not have seatbelts.
Good start. I don't think the extra weight is an issue though.
The issue I have here is the driver being responsible to enforce use , a mandatory isle check when leaving ok , but the constant enforcement needs to be spelled out more clearly so no driver is ever responsible .
One to ponder is if the crop of new bus drivers is getting harder and harder to find will this in fact cause more bus accidents, and do to districts scraping the bottom of the barrel to find bodys to drive buses , hence making it more of a reason to now consider more safety measures in buses (belts, windows)etc.... Both deadly accidents last year were considered driver error in one case known seizure issue occurred in the other cell phone use of a driver that had already been reprimanded previously .
We had a driver last week went down a one way street in which there was no way to turn around , instead of having his assistant back him down the street from taking the wrong turn he decides the opening in a fence to a cemetery was a good option goes into the cemetery to turn around destroys several tombstones and then gets the bus stuck in mud after driving all over the cemetery ..Not kidding <<<these are sometimes the folks were dealing with these days and it may get worse
Can't disagree with you. Thus my proposal for a "passive" addition to the safety of a bus. That being laminated windows to keep students inside the bus in and accident. |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2019 : 08:07:48 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
I've accepted that it's most likely coming. This is a sad defense to use, but my real concern now is this:
I have 24 route buses. I replace 2. The new ones have belts. Now 2 routes have belts and 22 do not. How do you justify who got the belts and who didn't?
Im in the same boat though now its only 3 of 9 routes that dont have belts. I get the calls from parents asking why theyre kids dont have a bus with belts etc. I explain all the reasons why and how compartmentalization works. Then I occasionally rotate buses and drivers. |
-Ken- |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2019 : 09:48:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
I've accepted that it's most likely coming. This is a sad defense to use, but my real concern now is this:
I have 24 route buses. I replace 2. The new ones have belts. Now 2 routes have belts and 22 do not. How do you justify who got the belts and who didn't?
Seat belt equipped buses go on the routes than transport the lawyer's kids? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2019 : 09:48:01 AM
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Or the routes most likely to call the scuzzball tv commercial attorney!
I can't wait til this is my reality. |
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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2019 : 04:08:49 AM
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| there are a lot of great points and that is why I am trying to be active in gathering information and passing it along to legislators and representatives at the state and federal level. My fear is that if it becomes a federal mandate that it may be enforced for all buses which may be more that a finical problem. Some buses are not designed to be equipped with seatbelts due to seat mounting, There would need to be a revision in the drivers responsibility of seat belt violation, "in my opinion" fire suppression systems need to be considered. It is a lot more than just writing in a law for seat belts.. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2019 : 05:34:19 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by wwinters
It is a lot more than just writing in a law for seat belts..
Unfortunately that's what many legislators believe. Many don't, won't or can't have a concept of mechanical limitations of things. |
Bryan |
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wwinters
Senior Member
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2019 : 10:28:14 AM
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New Mexico HB265 this is some of the wording I am concerned about:
D. Any driver of a school bus who fails to comply with any of the [regulations] rules is guilty of a misdemeanor."
driver cannot be held responsible for all the students on a school bus |
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Topic |
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seatbelts
