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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2019 :  09:31:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
nothing there all the same part number and were talking on the front there changing everything from the spiders to the tubes to the s cams and slacks not chambers tho and shoes and drums I have no clue why nor does the road tech

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4475 Posts

Posted - 10/14/2019 :  10:56:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I'm an engineer and I said so. There's nothing wrong with the bus. I'm an engineer and I said so." I'd say that's why.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 10/18/2019 :  11:30:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
yes your probably right this bus has had bird look at it many many times its been sitting a month waiting it will be out of warranty in 2 weeks my guess is they will throw these parts at it and say all yours now I have turned this one and 5 7 other units into NHTSA just for the data

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2019 :  05:20:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, we have changed out a few, they are the same parts. Really hate to think we have to replace all these parts every 20,000 miles?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2019 :  06:57:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Has anyone talked to an aftermarket brake company to see what they have to say? A lot of the time, if there's a problem, they will have a solution so they can sell parts to fix it. Gosh, I love capitalism!!

Bryan
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2019 :  06:37:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are still testing to see if the front brakes fade as they wear, we will see
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 10/30/2019 :  10:14:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
no word from an aftermarket supplier as these are still under warranty I wont put any part that is not a direct replacement on any bus due to liability issues so we wait on bird as they continue to drag there feet because they don't want this to be there problem they want to pass the buck to save the cost of a recall / repair

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Pablosi
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2019 :  06:46:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit Pablosi's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We operate on mostly flat surfaces and inner city and we are only getting about 10,000 miles on set a brakes. The valving in my opinion does not seem to be correct between the front and rear brakes. I have spoken to the dealer and guess what they did for us to correct the issue? NOTHING
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 10/31/2019 :  11:06:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
welcome to the world of blue bird rear brakes all talk and no help

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2019 :  04:22:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
still nothing from Bird big pile of parts in my shop for my dealers road tech to swap out but still no word of any type of fix only silence from Bird

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2019 :  06:43:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did hear Meritor was working with a couple district's up north on the brake issue still trying to find the problem. In my opinion replacing the drums, shoes, hardware and S cam is not going to fix the problem but it is a start and so far they are preforming much better. With that said I am seeing the heat numbers starting to fall on front brakes as they get some miles on them. I will say MR Jeff Reitz President/CEO of Central States Bus has been in contact regularly with me on the issues since he was informed back in June 2019 and he had one of my units picked up and taken to FT Valley GA for the engineers to test. He wants to find the answer and has earned my total respect in his commitment to his customers. I will continue to send them data as we see any changes.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2019 :  07:04:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
last data I took left front 129 degrees at the drum face left rear 327 degrees at the drum face right front 125 degrees at the drum face and right rear 390 degrees at the drum face this unit is out of service until a fix is found they have changed the rear slacks to haldex still to hot I understand next there going to put front slacks on this unit

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 11/15/2019 :  08:55:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Slacks only adjust to stroke they do not brake. if adjustment is staying correct slacks will not change the issue. BUT they did the same with mine when testing. I have two theory's it is only the propane buses I am having problems with, my Bluebird diesel has (in my opinion) near perfect wear where it is about a 60-40 wear pattern and brake temps always within 50-100 degrees front to rear depending on brake use. I have checked all the valves and brake lines and everything is exactly the same except the propane has a different design in brake lines that adds several feet of air line to front brakes (MY OPENION that will change crack pressures?) the other is the transmission. The Allison has a braking effect (as required in FMVSS Standard # 102)and the Ford transmission does not so no help slowing down like the Allison does.
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Crown
Senior Member

89 Posts

Posted - 11/16/2019 :  04:22:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jeeptjken

Here we go again now they want to change every component except lines and tanks from the front to the back every single component s cams slacks backing plates shoes drums chambers when will the guessing end and the real fix begin survey says never


I hope they don't change everything at once. If the problem still exists they will have no idea what it is. If the problem is gone they will have no ideas what it was.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 11/18/2019 :  04:20:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
kind of like preaching to the choir myself as well as there 35 plus year school bus mechanic road tech have been thru all of this with them and our opinions are of no importance to them so what can you do let them continue to spin there wheels and slide down the slippery slope along for the ride and document everything with NHTSA and let them sort it out

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2019 :  04:09:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
so where are we now
after figuring out the treadal valve has a rubber spring in it that delays air pressure to the front brakes a trial was done with no students on the bus big difference but had to put everything back to stock yesterdays ambient air temp was 18f sent bus on route front brake temps after route 150f rear brakes 450f drove bus and a long run with 10 or so stops front brake temps 40f rear brakes 229f we have talked to bird engineer till were blue in the face they don't see any problem with the fronts doing nothing we also know there is a anti compounding issue as the chamber move a significant amount with the parking brake applied and the drivers foot on the brake pedal none of my internationals move at all in the same situation will bird ever listen or do anything to help this rear brake job at every oil change is getting a bit expensive

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

361 Posts

Posted - 12/19/2019 :  07:22:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe a crack pressure issue with the treadle valve?

-Ken-
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  05:09:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs

Maybe a crack pressure issue with the treadle valve?



I think it is a 2 part problem. 1) most of the problem I am seeing are in propane buses, with that said the ford transmission has no braking affect as the Allison's do 2) the crack pressures have appeared to be our problem from the start 3 YEARS AGO. As I have stated before when I did get Jeff Reitz involved he had one of my buses picked up and taken to FT Valley GA. for testing. 5 weeks after they started I received a call stating "we found the problem, front brakes are not working" They had engineers testing and changing parts for several weeks and the best they could do was replace S CAM, Brake Pads and Drums. This helps at first but we are seeing the temperatures going toward the wrong direction again. I did some air pressure testing as no dealer could seem to figure it out and I found pressures 6-10 psi difference front to rear. keep in mind the pressures react at 2-3 psi so a 6 psi difference is a lot. I also checked part numbers of the valves to see if they were the same on our diesel bus (same year) which has near perfect brake wear and found all valves were the same and the only difference was the propane buses have a few extra feet of air line in the front **which in my opinion** would change amount of PSI needed to create braking? again a crack pressure issue. I did have an engineer during a conference call state he did not see a problem transporting students on the buses after stating the front brakes were not working??? I will also say Jeff Reitz has been staying after this for 6 months now trying to find the answer.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4475 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  07:39:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Oh that's precious. "We know the front brakes don't work, but it's ok!" Yeah, Mr. Engineer...tell Mr. Attorney that after the crash, even if it wasn't brake related!
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

361 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  08:48:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Engineers. They really hate it when you point out their mistakes. I once told these Belgian guys from VanHool that they made a mistake with the air compressor discharge line on their transit buses. They had the bright idea of running several feet of copper line in a triangular coil shape to reduce carbon buildup. Problem was it dropped down from the compressor, ascended about 18 or so inches before going over part of the chassis, then dropped down into the wet tank. Surprise surprise they kept freezing up and stopped building air on the road (SLC Utah). I gutted their neat little coil and ran a new line routed down from the air comp to the wet tank. Boy were they upset, but not a single unit froze up after that. Weeks later the engineers came up with the fix which was to do just what I did.

-Ken-
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  09:54:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Oh that's precious. "We know the front brakes don't work, but it's ok!" Yeah, Mr. Engineer...tell Mr. Attorney that after the crash, even if it wasn't brake related!




Almost as bad as Thomas wanting me to run the buses that the seats fail to comply with FMVSS 571.222 and the Ky manual specifically stating that is an out of service issue.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4475 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  10:04:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any updates on those as far as when the recall remedy will be available?
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  10:53:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bird is down for the Christmas holiday so nothing at all

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 12/20/2019 :  10:58:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jeeptjken

Bird is down for the Christmas holiday so nothing at all




Waiting to hear now, I did read that some buses in Texas were repaired already so hoping we can get ours completed so we can get them back on the road...
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2020 :  08:18:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have one of the valves on my desk apart to see what the design is and did not find any springs that were not metal. I do see surfaces that show a friction rub that could cause a problem as we are only talking about 2-4, 4-6 PSI making these work. I saw the pressures delay and be off on the buses I tested and that was the reason I felt it was an crack pressure issue. I will be meeting engineers later in the month to discuss what my opinion's are and see if we can get something fixed. I must say again Jeff Reitz (President/CEO of Central States Bus) has been on this from the first day we talked back in July and he has most defiantly earned my respect.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2020 :  05:55:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I did have the opportunity to meet with Bluebird engineers this past Tuesday at the plant in Ft Valley Georgia. I will say this is a top priority in their daily duties and they are working with Bendix to try to pinpoint the problem. I have a two part story 1) it took 3 years to get them to listen to me. That is in the past and we must move forward 2) Since the 1st day I spoke to Jeff Reitz on the problem I have had regular updates from him and the Bluebird engineers. It takes time to test and change a part and test again so I understand it will take a while to get the problem resolved. I continue to take temps and keep Bluebird informed of what I am seeing. The Bendix engineers and Bluebird engineers will be meeting late this week to cover what they are seeing. Maybe this will be resolved soon.
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RonF
Top Member

843 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2020 :  06:33:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wwinters

I did have the opportunity to meet with Bluebird engineers this past Tuesday at the plant in Ft Valley Georgia. I will say this is a top priority in their daily duties and they are working with Bendix to try to pinpoint the problem. I have a two part story 1) it took 3 years to get them to listen to me. That is in the past and we must move forward 2) Since the 1st day I spoke to Jeff Reitz on the problem I have had regular updates from him and the Bluebird engineers. It takes time to test and change a part and test again so I understand it will take a while to get the problem resolved. I continue to take temps and keep Bluebird informed of what I am seeing. The Bendix engineers and Bluebird engineers will be meeting late this week to cover what they are seeing. Maybe this will be resolved soon.




Awesome. My rep called me last week and wanted to know my brake shoe measurements on my gas fleet of birds. So something is happening.

We changed our first set of rear shoes on a gas bus two weeks ago at 39,000 miles.

US Army retired CMBT
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
110 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2020 :  07:42:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


Awesome. My rep called me last week and wanted to know my brake shoe measurements on my gas fleet of birds. So something is happening.

We changed our first set of rear shoes on a gas bus two weeks ago at 39,000 miles.
[/quote]

What is the % of front shoes? we are getting 16,000-25,000 on rears but fronts pretty much stopped wearing at 85-90%
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