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Jared
Top Member
USA
1865 Posts |
 Posted - 05/11/2001 : 09:04:46 AM
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I was wondering if anyone has purchased the 1997-1999 Crown by Carpenter Rear engine buses with the standard rear emergency exit and rear end? Does anyone remember what I am talking about?? Right before they went out of business they had this RE design that had a higher rear end, the engine was mounted lower, under the rear of the floor. It was innovative, but probably built like crap. Anyway, I am just wondering peoples views who buy RE buses. Would you rather have that fullsize rear exit door ( like a standard school bus in the back ) instead of just the kick out large window. I am experimenting with mounting the engine under the floor ( maybe raising the floor ) and having a standard rear end.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2001 : 09:48:41 AM
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I think it would be great to have a full-size emergency exit door on the rear of an RE bus. They seem to be much safer than the large window.
In addition, I would think that there it is easier to get out of in an emergency, and if there was an emergency, the students and driver on the bus would be able to get out much quicker through a rear door on an RE, rather than the window.
I haven't seen a rear door on an RE before, but I would like to see what it would look like and how the engine would be placed in the RE to accomodate the full-size rear emergency door found on FE's and conventional buses.
Bob
"B. Busguy33" |
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2001 : 08:17:53 AM
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Crown and Gillig made buses with mid-mount engines. The rear engine compartment areas then became luggage compartments. None of the mid-mount engine buses had rear emergency doors. They all had rear emergency exits.
Perhaps that sounds like parsing but there is a difference between exits and doors, the main difference being the doors have the threshold next to the floor. All of the last of the Crown Supercoaches and now required on all school buses in WA state are emergency exit doors on both sides of the bus behind the rear axle. In new buses it is required that the seat flip up automatically whenever someone is not sitting in the seat to make the egress out of the emergency door easy.
With side emergency doors it really is not necessary to have an emergency door at the back of the bus as well. The Kenworth Pacific buses didn't even have a rear exit, let alone a rear door. They came standard with an emergency door on both sides of the bus behind the rear axle.
Regardless of whether it is a door or exit, each are much better for egress than any push out window. For those of us who are not petite, the push out windows are just a little bit on the small side for us to get through. I don't even think I could get out of the standard roof hatches unless I had a lot of adrenaline pushing me through.
Lets just hope we never have to use any of them.
Mark O.
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Jared
Top Member
USA
1865 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2001 : 11:08:19 AM
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cowllitzcoach-
just when I thought I knew the in's and out;s of every bus manufacturer, I found one that stumped me.. What is the Kenworth Pacific?? I am clueless..
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MrBusDriver
Senior Member
USA
189 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2001 : 2:37:15 PM
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I would be perfectly content with dual emergency DOORS behind the rear axle. The NY style door gets a double thumbs down in my book because not many instances would I want my kiddies jumping into on coming traffic. If there was a DOOR on both sides I would be a much bigger fan of an RE. I am not particular about the rear window but in case the bus did end up on its side it would be nice to be able to get out the back still so the rear window is nice.
Jared, I would be interested to see your design for an RE with a low-mount engine. Be sure to get feedback from mechanics as well -- they gotta work on them! 
I would also like to see a mid-mount engine on a school bus... never seen one here in the midwest. I would assume they are more popular out west. I would think that a mid mount here with the midwest snow would give better traction. I'm surprised to see none here. Maybe when Peterbuilt, Kenworth and IHC get their deal going they will have one.
-- Mr Bus Driver
Edited by - MrBusDriver on 05/13/2001 2:39:09 PM |
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member
USA
325 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2001 : 7:41:46 PM
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Up until 1957 Kenworth made the Pacific school bus. It was a a heavy duty type 'D' bus.
I doubt the KW Pacific was ever sold in any kind of numbers east of the Rockies. I would venture to say most all of the production run was sold in WA, OR, ID, and CA. I doubt they ever made more than 2000 Pacific school buses in their full production run. So finding an intact one at this late date is rather difficult.
In 1957 Kenworth sold all of their bus manufacturing business to Gillig. Soon after the sale Gillig buses started to have some of the features previously found only on the Pacific.
Once Crown (the real Crown bus built in CA) went out of business in 1991 the mid-mount engine was no longer built. The only other manufacturer of a mid-mount engine was Gillig. And Gillig got out of the school bus business in the early 80's.
I like the rear emergency exit better than the door. If the bus is upright, the side emergency doors are more than adequate for exiting the bus, particularly if the service door can be used. If the bus should go over on the side, a rear door can be hard to open if the hinge side happens to be on the top while the exit would then open like a regular door. Plus, for those of us of larger proportions, I have always wondered if I could fit through a roof hatch. The KW Pacific roof hatch was at least 36" on diagonal. From out of that hatch I know I could get out.
Let's just hope we never have to use them.
Mark O.
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Phil4747
Top Member
USA
695 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2001 : 8:37:32 PM
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The federal regulations for emergency exits specify minimum sizes which I feel are ridiculous. Roof hatches have to be only 2 ft x 2 ft clear opening. I'm not exactly sure what the requirement for push-out windows is, but I know it's a lot smaller than I could fit through when I was even in 8th grade.
Rear emergency exit, you have a choice of a push-out rear window or a door. Door has to be at least 2 ft by 4 ft with a clear space inside the bus for a depth of 1 ft (hence the half-seat).
If the manufacturer chooses a push-out rear window, it has to be 2 ft by 4 ft clear opening. And they are required to add a left-side emergency door, with an opening of 2 ft by 4 ft. No seat may obstruct the opening of the door for a distance of 1 ft from the rear of the door, unless it's a flip seat that automatically returns upright.
Another thing I don't like is that the side emergency doors are supposed to be added starting on the left. If the bus is pulled over on the side of the road, I don't want kids jumping out into traffic.
But no matter where the doors are placed, I might be able to get out through a 2 ft by 4 ft opening if my life depended on it, but it wouldn't be easy. And I know a lot of people who couldn't at all.
Rear doors are generally wider than the requirement, most in excess of 3 feet wide. It's industry standard to make those as wide as possible, but leave side doors at the 2 ft minimum, maybe a little more. That's one of the reasons I would never want an RE.
I, like Jared, am studying automotive design and plan to design buses. One thing I feel is a necessity is to far exceed federal standards for emergency exit size. Unfortunately, I don't have a way to post any of my designs here on the forums, but as soon as I do, I'll show you some ideas I have for making them larger.
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Jared
Top Member
USA
1865 Posts |
Posted - 05/14/2001 : 11:44:24 PM
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so basically, if you guys who spec RE buses could have the free option of getting a standard rear end ( conventional or FE style with a full rear door ) or just the window exit that the RE's have now, which would you choose and why?????? Thanks for your input.
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2001 : 12:29:06 PM
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I think a full-size rear door would be better than a push out rear window on an RE. The door would be easier to access and larger than the push out window.
Also, I think more people would be able to get out of the bus quicker and safer with the rear door rather than the rear push out window.
However, the engine would be placed lower to the ground than the rest of the bus and may tend to hit some objects that may be protruding upwards from the road. In addition, more dirt may get kicked up in the engine compartment since it is lower to the ground. To solve this, skid plates could be used to protect the engine and prevent it from getting as dirty as it would without them.
Overall, I think that a full-size rear door would be better and safer than the push-out window in my opinion. It just seems easier to operate and more people could get out faster.
Bob
"B. Busguy33"
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 05/15/2001 12:37:33 PM |
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BusDiva
Top Member
USA
609 Posts |
Posted - 05/15/2001 : 2:40:16 PM
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I like the rear engine design and have no problem with the exit window in the rear. I like the hyd. hinges to help assist in opening the window which requires less force from the operator. The rear door is nice but both the window and the door serve the same purpose.
As far as the size, sure the door is larger but the opening will benefit anyone in the event of an emergency. No matter who you look at it, size or weight, in an emergency I bet you will make it out. PLus, what driver would pass up a roof hatch, side door or kick out window in the event of an emergency and go to the back of the bus. It is understandable that it may be the only way out which I would make it want to be larger however I feel the window is large enough for anyone to get out. If the window is not large enough to get through, then you cannot make it down the aisle way to the back because of the seats being in the way. With that in mind, how does one check their exits form the inside if they cannot make it down the aisle??? Just a thought
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Carpenter rear engine buses
