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dynono1
New Member

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  08:33:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi, I am wondering if anyone is having an issue with the coating used in the fuel filler necks flaking off on their 2010 ICs? This winter we were finding small metal looking fragments in the strainer and filter base. Buses were quitting on route, towed to shop blew the strainer and filter housing out and they were fine for few days. Started pulling the fuel heaters out, and found large pieces of debris in heater element. Blew the fuel line back to tank, haven't had issues with these buses in over 2 weeks now. Dealing with local Int. dealer on this matter and of course we and a district in Florida are only ones having problems. The material is a coating in the filler necks to keep them from rusting.
I have attached a link to some pictures and a short video of this issue. If anyone else is having this problem, or at least check your filler tubes, please respond. These buses are 5 months out of warranty, local dealer is saying our problem as of now. It is not like it is only 1-2 buses----we have cleaned out 10 so far and own 20 total. Apparently they are still using this coating, and we have 8 2012 Ics.
https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B0d5gkDg2qGfflFrSV9SWEpWVndyWkNadGZ1NUUxUDlUWDE0ZkgxWlZiRkZHa1FjaTZjbVU&usp=sharing

dynono1
New Member

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 03/06/2015 :  08:35:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way, in the pictures of the the debris on towel with tape measure, this is what came out of 1 fuel heater!!

Edited by - dynono1 on 03/06/2015 08:37:02 AM
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2015 :  05:20:39 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I just had a bus at Dealer in west MI last week, they found same thing happening in one of my 2012's basically said fuel system needed clean out due to the stuff flaking off filler neck... quoted me a price of $1671.00 to clean tank and system... I brought bus back to shop to take care of it rather than pay them as.. and I quote,, fuel system is only covered for 1 year under warranty...

Looks like this may be an on going issue unless IH changes this in build process to a different part without protective coating...
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
841 Posts

Posted - 03/09/2015 :  11:28:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just went out and looked at 3 different models in the shop. We see the flaking in the 2009's and the 2011 CE's that we have; the 2007 CE does not have the coating. What we aren't seeing is the same amount of debris in the strainer/filter, and we aren't having to tow anything. We change our fuel filters when we change oil--That may be why we don't see the build up. The filler neck on the 2007 without the coating is clean and rust-free. I'm not sure what the coating "fixed." Thanks for the heads up!

I have 2010, 2011, 2112, and 2013 BE's as well that I haven't checked. When I do I'll post.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2015 :  04:34:06 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I had noticed same here.. 08's and earlier buses, no coating... then in my 2010's and 11's when changing fuel filter and cleaning rock trap/screen found what seemed like alot of debries at first filter change...seemed to get better with every filter change from new...

The 2012's and newer with electric fuel pump and rock trap surrounding it... was told by dealer not to service every filter change, so I believe that is why they found so much in it when they were looking for stall hesitation issues at dealer... definetly going to pull pumps on all my other newer busses from now on at all filter changes to clean and check them... as can see flaking happening in filler neck..

I have 3 2015 CE's that were just delivered in December... they still have same coating in filler neck... looks like 09-10 and newer have coating... I am not sure what the coating is suppose to help..as you said Mechan1c...My 2008 and prior busses don't have any coating inside filler neck and didn't seem to be an issue before... WHY the change???

Edited by - slippert on 03/10/2015 04:40:02 AM
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dynono1
New Member

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 03/10/2015 :  08:37:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
According to our local dealer in Bay City MI....Apparently there was an issue with the necks rusting while being built, this is their fix.

We also change our filters every service. We also had small flakes now and then-nothing major. Most of the debris never made it to the rock catcher...as you saw in photos, alot was caught by the heater. We normally don't service the fuel heater.

Our issue with them quitting on road was due to debris in the fuel line building up. When we would go on a service call for the bus---no fuel pressure....tow the unit in, and would have fuel pressure again---nothing changed, just the wrecker ride in. I started noticing the primer pump would stay in when priming....that lead to back blowing the fuel line. So far none of the units we back blew have come back.

As of now, local dealers fix is to get a bead hone the necks. That is what they did to the buses in Florida that had this issue. I asked about debris left in tack and was told strainer will get them....they did not pull or clean tanks. Some of those pieces are over an inch big.

Our 2010 emission ICs are finicky enough in the winter....just can't wait for this to start wiping out the elec. pumps.

We are getting Capital City Bus Sales involved, as we bought them there, and we are looking to hopefully purchase 5 new units. Will keep posted if anything new arises from that avenue.

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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  07:36:11 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The "WHY the change" was a Rhetorical question,lol.... I called Cap city and they informed me IC was refering them to this IKnow article #IK1500039,dated May 2008, which appears to be related to rust in filler necks and the silver zinc coating they are using to stop it... I mentioned that I had not seen an issue from rusting in filler necks, but was having a problem with the zinc coating flaking off and plugging fuel heater and rock traps on the busses with electric fuel pumps on engines..

My main complaint was if coating is a factory installed process, that the one year fuel system warranty should not even be thrown at a customer, if coating is coming loose/off and causing problems! I.E. shouldn't be charging or asking customer to pay $1671 to clean system when something they are and have been doing is causing the problem...

Obiously the debris are being caught by fuel filters before they go thru more important components... but seems to me that someone at corporate level shoud know that their fix may be causing just as many problems...

WE just got 3 new CE's with the 6.7l cummins engine(trying to get away from some of the engine issues we were having with the International engines...... Makes me wonder what I may here from Cummins when I need one of those worked on in warranty and they tell me problem stems from a whole bunch of zinc coating coming from fuel tank,,,,lol

Edited by - slippert on 03/11/2015 07:43:50 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

1499 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  08:17:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert


WE just got 3 new CE's with the 6.7l cummins engine(trying to get away from some of the engine issues we were having with the International engines...... Makes me wonder what I may here from Cummins when I need one of those worked on in warranty and they tell me problem stems from a whole bunch of zinc coating coming from fuel tank,,,,lol



I just noticed in our state bids that came out last week and are good for one year, that on the CE buses the only engines the IC dealer listed as available to order are the Cummins Diesel and the Power Solutions propane V8. If you want a Maxxforce DT, the only way you can get it is to order a rear engine transit bus.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 03/11/2015 08:18:56 AM
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  10:50:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That is what I am hearing in MI as well. No longer offering the Maxx DT or 7. I hope the Cummins is a good in a IC as they are in Bluebirds and that IC can focus more on a good body.
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dynono1
New Member

USA
5 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  11:05:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not to get to far off topic, but R.I.P Maxxforce DT. Our 2010 emission DT's are the worst starting and cold weather performance units we own. We added oil pan heaters, helped with cold weather starting. Definitely unimpressed with IC

We bought 10 Bluebird Visions last fall with the 6.7. Except for small quirks here and there, they have been pretty good. 6.7's starts better than the 5.9's in our 01-02 TC2000's, and those have always started great. Only bad thing is even though International is using the 6.7, many repair centers, including our local IH dealer, are not trained to service them yet. I believe their is a timeline set early summer for the dealers to be Cummins certified.

Slippert----Someone at corporate level also knows what garbage their seat foams are, but when I asked Gary Bigelow from Capitol Cities recently if they improved them or not, his response was
"they are addressing it"....yeah right.

You will like your 6.7's.


Edited by - dynono1 on 03/11/2015 11:08:13 AM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4491 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  11:15:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Don't waste your time with Lichter foam (OEM for IC and Bird)...replace with Triad/HSM as they go bad and never look back.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 03/11/2015 :  11:15:47 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

[quote]Originally posted by slippert


WE just got 3 new CE's with the 6.7l cummins engine(trying to get away from some of the engine issues we were having with the International engines...... Makes me wonder what I may here from Cummins when I need one of those worked on in warranty and they tell me problem stems from a whole bunch of zinc coating coming from fuel tank,,,,lol



I just noticed in our state bids that came out last week and are good for one year, that on the CE buses the only engines the IC dealer listed as available to order are the Cummins Diesel and the Power Solutions propane V8. If you want a Maxxforce DT, the only way you can get it is to order a rear engine transit bus.
[/quot

Prior to placing our bid for those last 3 the salesman from IC told us that soon cummins or propane was only thing that would be offered in the CE, needless to say didn't bother me a bit... I have had great experience with the 5.9/6.7 in other buses, so was it was welcome news here... At that time I was told we could have still speced the DT if we wanted, but was actually less money to go with the cummins engine...so that was a bonus too!!


Right with ya on seat foams Dyno....doesn't matter how long they last as long as they can pass fed specs and crash test at build, chances are they are going to use the cheapest they can find...

Edited by - slippert on 03/11/2015 11:34:30 AM
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
873 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2020 :  2:13:09 PM  Show Profile  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I am seeing this on our 2018 with Cummins engine. My tech checked filler necks on our 2014 and they are peeling but havent had the engine issues yet.
We are going to go proactive and tear the filler necks out and clean then check the rest of the system. Our 2014s have MF 7 engines.


Brad A. Barker
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4491 Posts

Posted - 11/05/2020 :  03:49:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thank you for the heads up on this. We will take a look at ours as they come through the shop.
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