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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
 Posted - 03/01/2002 : 08:00:31 AM
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I WONDER IF ANYONE OUT THERE EVER TRIED A PROGRAM THAT THE BIG TIRE CO. HAD WHERE YOU WOULD BUY NEW TIRES FOR THE REAR OF A SCHOOL BUS FOR A REDUCER COST, THEN WHEN THEY WORE OUT THEY WOULD PICK THEM UP AND RECAP THEM WITH A THICKER THAN USUAL CAP AND SELL THEM BACK TO YOU ?
IS SO WHAT RESULTS DID YOU HAVE ?
THANKS JIMBO
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 2:02:32 PM
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I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about so obviously I haven't heard of it. What is your motive? What are you trying to achieve? Maybe some more specific info would inspire a better answer?
Brad
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 5:43:56 PM
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HEY BRAD;
IT WORKES LIKE THIS, TWO YEARS AGO I WENT TO A MGRS. MEETING PUT ON BY THE STATE. THE TIRE THING CAME UP AND I THOUGHT IT SEEMED LIKE SOMETHING TO LOOK INTO. OF COURSE WORKING FOR A LARGE CNTY. SOMETIMES IT IS HARD TO BE HEARD. NOW WE ARE GETTING 12-15,000 MILES ON RECAPS. I THINK WE CAN DO BETTER WITH MY MONEY (AS A TAX PAYER) THAN THIS
JIMBO
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/01/2002 : 10:06:36 PM
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I agree, Jimbo. We regularly exceed 40,000 miles on recapped tires. Our recapper, in this case Bandag, guarantees us 36,000 miles. In fact, our recap program is so successful that we remove rear tires from new school buses and install recaps as a cost savings measure. We are using the deep 22/32" heavy hauler tread pattern. Your recapper can do better. If they don't, try another vendor.
Joe
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 09:03:39 AM
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THANKS JOE,
SOME HOW I KNEW THE ANSWER BUT WE WILL WAIT TILL APRIL. THATS WHEN BANDAG STARTS. IT AGRAVATES ME TO LOOK BACK 3 YEARS AT THE CAPS WE WERE USING AND PISSING MONEY AWAY. I KNOW IT'S HARD TO CHANGE A BID ONCE IT IS IN PLACE BUT WHEN YOU WEIGH THE COST...
THANKS AGAIN
JIMBO
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2002 : 4:31:43 PM
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My pleasure, Jimbo. You might consider in your new bid adding a warranty or penalty for tires not reaching a pre-determined mileage. In my district, it's 35,000 miles. Yours may be higher or lower than that depending on the buses, condition of the roads and daily mileage. This type of penalty or reimbursement will make them sit up and take notice, but most importantly, it will reimburse your district in real dollars for unattained miles due to poor quality rubber or procedures. We specify the pre-cure "cold" process that does not exceed 257 degrees farenheit. The hot cap or mold cure process is making a comeback in some areas, but I am still highly suspicious of that procedure. We know our way works and is reliable. Good luck on your new bid, start working on it now!
Joe
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/03/2002 : 06:48:19 AM
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THANKS AGAIN,
ALL THESE WERE IN PLACE, 30,000 MILE WRITTEN INTO THE BID, BUT IT WASEN'T HAPPENING FOR THE LAST THREE YEARS. NOW IT WILL.
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 07:16:24 AM
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jimbo20,
Forgive me I wasn't sure if you were talking about a new type of tire program besides capping. Yes, I also run recaps on the rears of my buses. We buy our buses with steer tire in all positions and remove the rears, replacing them with caps when the buses arrive from the factory. We use the rear steers for front steer replacements. I buy two types of caps, Michelin Retread and Oliver Rubber. Both have worked comparable. I also buy a siped tread which aids in traction. I don't get quite as much of life as Wagonmaster because I pull mine off in the winter when they reach 7-8/32nds. If I go farther than that we end up with two many stuck buses in the winter. When the weather breaks I put some of them back on and run them off to about 4-6/32nds. My rear engine buses will run down to 4-6/32nds before I pull them. I pay $85 for my caps and have the wheels reconditioned with new valve stems. Total cost is $135 for a tire and wheel assembly. After two caps I sell the casings back to the tire vendors for $50 each. My Michelin Retreads are the XDHT sipe with 23/32 and Oliver Rubber Super Traction Deep w/Sierra sipe w/22/32.
Brad.
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 4:10:05 PM
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HEY BRAD,
I FULLY UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU AND JOE ARE SAYING AND I AGREE THAT IT WOULD BE AN EXCELENT WAY TO GO. YOU MUST SPEND A LOT OF TIME CHANGING TIRES WHEN YOU GET IN NEW BUSES. WE SOMETIMES GET BETWEEN 70 AND 100 BUSES IN. THE LOGISTICS COULD BE TOUGH TO WORK OUT. MAYBE I'LL RUN IT BY UP STAIRS.
JIMBO
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 7:42:56 PM
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Jimbo, who is "The Big Tire Co"? They dont sound like an above the table company to me. It sounds like they are trying to get you to commit to their recaping. What is the deal? How much for the new tires and caps? What tire size, mfg and load range? What cap and tread type? Thanks, Joe
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 8:06:12 PM
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Wagonmaster, Is 35,000 mile warranty only on 11R22.5's with a Bandag Heavy Hauler or on all Bandag recaps and 10R22.5's also? Have you seen any performance differences with recaps using different casing manufactures? I dont recall ever seeing the Heavy Hauler cap. I have used the Bandag Grippers, Super Trac's, D4300's, D4310's and most recently the ATRM's in my larger tires over the years. I always liked the 4300 and got high mileage and very good snow traction. It also maintained a good look at lower tread life. Bandag was pushing the ATRM for school buses because they said it outperformed the best "New" tire in its class. I was disatified with the tread life(and wear patterns)and the look of the cap below 7/32's. Thanks, Joe
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/05/2002 : 8:11:50 PM
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One word of caution when specing steering tires on the rear axle of new buses. Make sure the load range is right for use on front axles. The dealers will sometimes give you a lower load range tire that is suitable on the rear axle only. It saves them 25-30$ a tire. Thanks, Joe
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/06/2002 : 05:07:34 AM
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Hi Joe,
Right you are about load range ratings, be sure when you show the specs on your Purchase Order or bid, that you indicate which load range you need. At least you have something to fall back on should you discover a discrepancy.
The 35,000 mile requirement is for 10r22.5 and 11r22.5 tires. Most of the rubber manufacturers offer a deep tread for trash trucks, waste haulers, etc. and I may be calling it by a name that you don't recognize. Nevertheless most all of them offer such a tread and they seem to work very well on the back of our conventionals, and transit type school buses. Snow will never be an issue for us but traction in sand and "unimproved" roads continues to be, and these work well in this respect too.
Further, Michelin offers a recap with a similar warranty that looks for all in the world like an XZE steer tire and will wear about as well according to our tests. We may use more of them in the future as recaps are re-bid in the future.
Regarding casings, we use mostly the Michelin XZE casings from our own supply. There are still a few old Goodyear G-159's out there, and they all do o.k. We were trying to get three caps from each casing, and were doing so, but even though we are a high mileage bus fleet we couldn't generate enough miles to wear out the third cap before the casings would begin to fail due to age. To that end, we now limit caps to two for each casing and we don't cap anything over three years old. We generate more than enough casings to do this and reliability has never been better.
Hope this helps.
Joe
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2002 : 4:37:30 PM
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Wagonmaster, My capper changed from a Bandag to a Michelin recapper last year. The Michelin caps duplicate the original tread designs. The XZE(18/32), XZA(15/32), XDA(23/32), XM+S4(21/32), XZY(18/32), using standard new tire compounds. Basicly returning the tire to its orignal state. Im running some XM+S4's and XDHT's(23/32) but haven't run them long enough to get mileage results. Im thinking about trying their XD4(28/32) on my 11R22.5's. They also have a XDY-1 that is 30/32's in a 211mm or wider tread.
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kd4jfd
Top Member
USA
1168 Posts |
Posted - 03/07/2002 : 5:53:10 PM
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Can you guys tell me the best way for me to get tires to put on my bus? I can buy used tires from the district, but I'd almost bet these were cappped at least once. Guidance, please.
Also, can you tell me what the difference between a recap and a regroove is?
349 - A repair work in progress!
Edited by - kd4jfd on 03/07/2002 6:42:14 PM |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 05:01:33 AM
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At the risk of sounding too simple, you go to the tire dealer of your choice and purchase your selection of tire(s) for them to install.... Recaps are fine for the drive axle, original treads are required for the front axle.
Regrooved tires are those that are indentified as "regroovable" on the tire casing. When the tread wears thin, a special siping tool or machine is used to create grooves into the remaining rubber left on the casing for this purpose. If done properly the casing can still be recapped when these grooves wear thin. Regrooved tires cannot be used on the front axle either. This has been a common practice in the transit and commercial bus business for over 30 years. Not too many school bus programs are equipped to do this, or run enough miles per bus to make it worthwhile, in my opinion.
If you aren't qualified to check a tire casing to see if it meets your needs, then you need to make friends with a local dealer that you can trust to make these decisions for you. Tires are, of course, critical in a safe reliable operation and only someone that knows what he/she is looking at should be involved in making those decisions.
Joe
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rockpik98
Active Member
USA
44 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 08:03:45 AM
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I agree with wagonmaster, it's not worth your life or the childrens lives by putting on bad tires that you may have purchased from your district. If your not qualified to make that judgement leave it to the experts.
Mikey |
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/08/2002 : 8:03:56 PM
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KD, The best way would be to buy new tires, tubes, valve stems, recondition your rims and balance the tires. Unfortunatly this is the most expensive way also. Call your tire dealer. Ask for the price of their new tires. Ask for their price on their cap and casings. Ask if they have used tires and get a price. Go to your district and look at the tires they are offering. Ask their foreman what he would recomend or come back to this forum with the info. You can also go to a salvage yard and see what they have available. If you have tube type tires you might be able to find 4 tubless steering or virgin drive tires on rims and upgrade. You dont have to guess how many times a tire has been recaped, they are dated every time they are caped. I wouldnt worry about the used tires from the district if you look at them closely for dry rotting, bead cracking, sidewall damage and tread delamination and dont find any defects. Make sure they are matched casings and tread. Remember that the cost of labor to mount used tires may not make any sense if you only have 6/32 of useful tread left and have to pay to do it again in a year or so. Good Luck, Joe
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/09/2002 : 3:25:48 PM
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On this subject, my tire bid opened just the other day and Michelin was the low bidder based on cost per mile, as we had hoped. They stepped up to a 40,000 mile warranty on 10r22.5 and 42,000 on 11r22.5!!!!!! I was knocked out! Unbelievable! Our tire program is pretty good, but this really took us by surprise. They must have some faith in us for sure! We'll have a few that don't go that far and that will cost them, but we're happy to keep Michelin as our supplier. We haven't found anything to compete with the XZE yet although the Bridgestone R250 is trying pretty hard. Thought I'd throw that in here since we've been talking about all this stuff.
Joe
Edited by - wagonmaster on 03/26/2002 3:45:57 PM |
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2002 : 5:07:26 PM
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Joe, Is the warranty provided by Michelin or your local dealer? Is it for new and recaps? Is this a special deal for just your fleet or is it now the standard Michelin warranty? Waht is the price quote on the tires? Thanks, Joe
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/14/2002 : 7:58:46 PM
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Hi Joe,
Sorry for the delay in responding, been on the road. This warranty is from our dealer and is only on new XZE tires. Our tire dealers (all of them) know how we run our tire program and wouldn't make this offer to just any fleet. They know how careful and particular we are with our tires and this warranty is part of the benefit of taking all those extra pains. The bid was awarded on a cost per mile basis, but the 10r22.5 are about $205 and the 11r22.5 are $233 each. They're more than the G159 Goodyears, but well worth it! FYI we are testing some R250 Bridgestones but no concrete results yet. Hope this helps.
Joe
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/15/2002 : 5:43:45 PM
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Thanks Joe, Keep me posted on the status of the Bridgestones and any other testing. Maybe some info on van tires, like LT225/75R16's.
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jimbo20
Senior Member
USA
159 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 10:05:27 AM
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HEY PEOPLE,
AT THE START OF THIS THING I SAID A LARGE TIRE CO. WELL I FOUND THE FLYER AND IT WAS, OF ALL PEOPLE, GOODYEAR TIRES. IN A NUT SHELL YOU WOULD GIVE THEM A VIRGIN CASING AND THEY WOULD SELL YOU A G362 RE-CAP FOR
$101.75 WITH 28/32 TREAD. PROBLEM IS THIS WAS 1999. MAYBE TOO LATE.
JIMBO
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2002 : 10:17:31 AM
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Hey Jimbo,
Nice try! Maybe Goodyear won't notice the date! LOL!
Joe
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FireTruckWrench
Active Member
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2002 : 7:24:19 PM
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quote:
They also have a XDY-1 that is 30/32's in a 211mm or wider tread.
Joe, The XDY-1 is an awesome tire, use it on a few of my fire trucks, it wears great, hardly any scrub, does a good job. You will like it.
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Topic |
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TIRES
