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thomas superior
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
 Posted - 02/04/2009 : 12:50:42 PM
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| I live in N.Y. and was wondering why hardly any districts use Re's anymore. My district had thomas Re's in the 90's and have about 6 or 7 left - 97's and 98's. They now buy C2's. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 2:17:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomas superior
I live in N.Y. and was wondering why hardly any districts use Re's anymore. My district had thomas Re's in the 90's and have about 6 or 7 left - 97's and 98's. They now buy C2's.
The main reason why districts in upstate NY don't buy RE's is because of the corrosion factor. Pushers require a lot of maintenance to keep the entire engine compartment from rotting out, so it has become unrealistic.
The other reason is the cost of rear engines has gone up significantly in comparison to what a conventional cost. The difference now is greater than ever and it is hard for the districts to justify. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2009 : 2:26:55 PM
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Oh yes...rust and $$$$$. Why spent 100K for an 84 passenger RE when you can spend 20K for an 84 passenger FE is the mindset.
I would much rather have the pusher, especailly the newest ones which are a tremendous improvement over the ones of the past, but money rules the school bus business 9 times out of 10! |
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thomas superior
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 07:49:05 AM
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| Where are re's most popular? |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 08:13:24 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomas superior
Where are re's most popular?
California is probably the biggest consumer of rear engine buses, followed by other western and southwestern states. There are also a fair number down in Florida. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 3:00:03 PM
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| What are the avantages of an RE? I know transits corner better than conventionals and can hold higher capacities. But an RE versus and FE? An FE would be noiser for the driver and definitely more difficult to service. What other advantages would there be for an RE? |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 3:44:44 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0
What are the avantages of an RE? I know transits corner better than conventionals and can hold higher capacities. But an RE versus and FE? An FE would be noiser for the driver and definitely more difficult to service. What other advantages would there be for an RE?
Well in areas where major rust isnt a concern, REs usually last the longest. You covered the other advantages, including capacity, less noise for driver, easier entry than FE, and easier to work on. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2009 : 4:18:35 PM
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They are also pretty darn good in slick conditions. Best bet with them is to keep students seated between the axles rather than towards the back as they seem to prefer...that takes away from the front end too much.
The three MVP-EF's we had weren't worth a crap on ice and water I don't mind saying. Don't even get me started on the noise and horrible ride the drivers put up with. Glad to see two of the three are getting junked this year!
Compare the base model FE and RE models from any of the big 3, the RE is much heavier duty. Again though...$$$ rules. |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 02/05/2009 4:20:32 PM |
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Salaskie
Advanced Member
USA
453 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2009 : 10:53:17 AM
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Rich, don't forget Alaska...they're everywhere! And yes, rust is an issue.
But when we have a model of bus that starts every morning and gives us the least problems...our drivers are happy :-) |
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thomas superior
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 1:06:00 PM
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| When did they stop offering standards in RE's? We had 2 1986 Thomas 81 seaters with them, and were a pain to shift. they converted them to automatic's later on. |
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devlin
Active Member
United States
14 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 1:27:49 PM
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We've got a 88' Thomas Westcoast ER Tandem, we're in Spokane, WA. It originated in Longview, WA. So far we haven't had any issues with rust or much of anything else. We sure like it alot. It's a joy to drive and remarkably agile for such a large bus. As far as slick conditions go, it does decent on ice and better on packed snow. The down side of having an RE is definitely the lack of weight over the steers, having the tandem charged doesn't help much either. All in all, I'd take the RE over the FE any day. Super quiet and great ride. Not to mention the added room. I'm not to much a fan of the air throttle though, it takes a bit to get used to and since you can't really hear the engine, it adds a different element to sensing for issues.
D |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 2:33:40 PM
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We don't have any REs.
I'm curious how they're dealing with the filtration exhaust systems and (future) urea injection systems in the REs. Seems like it'll be quite a challenge to fit all that hardware in the rear of a bus. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 5:32:58 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by devlin
I'm not to much a fan of the air throttle though, it takes a bit to get used to and since you can't really hear the engine, it adds a different element to sensing for issues.
D
Boy you would not have liked the early air throttle units then! You wanna know what a sensative pedal is? Hop in a 1981 or 82 model! The pedal would go down about an inch with no change in the idle, then in the next 1/8" you'd throw yourself back in the seat! Really took some getting used to. Seems like around 86 or 87 they got better.
I remember a TSB from Thomas suggesting adding a larger, heavier spring to the pedal itself to help in low speed operations.
Still ten times better than the Morse Teleflex cable system that came before Thomas went exclusive to air. Pain in the... |
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bus724
Top Member
USA
1609 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 5:52:22 PM
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| How about trying to double-clutch a GM SDM fishbowl with an air throttle? When I had my 72 Crown, I taught myself to shift that bus perfectly just about every time. I tried driving the old GMs from my former boss's collection, and I could never get the hang of it. I could make them move, yeah, but shift smoothly? Forget it. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2009 : 6:47:45 PM
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| Oh my...that sounds like a nightmare. I'm spoiled I guess...all the sticks I've driven over the years have been snyc's so none of that double clutching! |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 06:15:39 AM
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Rust? How is rust more common on a rear engine versus a front engine? That's almost like asking: what weighs more- a pound of gold or a pound of feathers? Our experience- wash the bus and under-spray as required per owners manual. You won't have any issues. We have been and no issues.
Price: The last two years- rear engine has been about two thousand cheaper per bus. Start throwing all the options on it, and it gets even more of a difference. It's a no brainer- you get what you pay for.
The rear engine units of today and not like they were five years ago. you hear a lot of resistance because of what people experienced five-10 years ago or longer. Time to get with the program and start re-learning the newer buses. I get amazed at directors that just simply dust off their spec's annually and do no research, Or they buy form this vendor because they gave me jackets or took me to lunch. Pathetic and they should be ashamed of their decisions.
Rear engine is the way to go- 15-20 year life span if taken care of- return of investment is extremely high.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 07:32:58 AM
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Do you mean that a pusher was $2K cheaper than a front engine or than the previous years' bids?
I'll agree with the mindset of just one vendor for the wrong reasons. Guy I know actualy hates the product he is buying, but refuses to allow anything else a chance. |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 07:42:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
Rust? How is rust more common on a rear engine versus a front engine? That's almost like asking: what weighs more- a pound of gold or a pound of feathers? Our experience- wash the bus and under-spray as required per owners manual. You won't have any issues. We have been and no issues.
Price: The last two years- rear engine has been about two thousand cheaper per bus. Start throwing all the options on it, and it gets even more of a difference. It's a no brainer- you get what you pay for.
The rear engine units of today and not like they were five years ago. you hear a lot of resistance because of what people experienced five-10 years ago or longer. Time to get with the program and start re-learning the newer buses. I get amazed at directors that just simply dust off their spec's annually and do no research, Or they buy form this vendor because they gave me jackets or took me to lunch. Pathetic and they should be ashamed of their decisions.
Rear engine is the way to go- 15-20 year life span if taken care of- return of investment is extremely high.
I agree with you Jay on people being stuck 5-10 years in the past on the rear engine units.
In NY, the 1990's rear engines were horrendous, particularly from Thomas, as far as rust protection. Entire rear end, the engine compartment, and floor crossmembers were nightmares. Granted many of these districts didnt wash them weekly underneath like they should have.
If the buses are ordered properly now, by putting on such items as a full-length rear mudflap, and an airfoil a lot can be accomplished. But conventionals still reign supreme here because of the old mindsets, and a cost difference in this state of 20+ grand. |
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CPCSC_TD
Top Member
USA
657 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 11:47:05 AM
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Yes sir. The rear engine units on our co-op bid was $2000 cheaper than the lowest priced forward control. Been that way for two years. Supply and demand runs the price for us.
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thomas superior
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 12:12:36 PM
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| Do you think that the failed CNG buses of the 90's has something to do with it? What was the deal with those Hercules CNG's? wher i live they all blew engines and were replaced with Cummins CNG. They still got rid of them earlier than usual. I heard the trade in value was horrible. Do people buy them and replace the engines with diesel since they sell so cheap? |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 3:14:45 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by CPCSC_TD
Yes sir. The rear engine units on our co-op bid was $2000 cheaper than the lowest priced forward control. Been that way for two years. Supply and demand runs the price for us.
Now THAT is impressive!
I'll add to what Rich said, those 1990's Thomas pushers hurt them (Thomas) alot. We had one built 12/92, it was total garbage from day number 1. Your basic STL ER powered by a 6CTA250, MT643 allison. Only body option ordered was a stobe light and AM/FM/PA system. $65,000 new, sold for $800 late 2007. The body had patches over patches over patches where the rust destroyed it from the inside out.
Wash it all you want...once that saltwater gets into the insulation--IT'S OVER KIDS!
Oh and it was really nice in 1998 when all the seatback covers rotted apart |
Edited by - Thomasbus24 on 02/08/2009 3:18:21 PM |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 4:26:28 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by thomas superior
Do you think that the failed CNG buses of the 90's has something to do with it? What was the deal with those Hercules CNG's? wher i live they all blew engines and were replaced with Cummins CNG. They still got rid of them earlier than usual. I heard the trade in value was horrible. Do people buy them and replace the engines with diesel since they sell so cheap?
You must be talking about Shen... yeah that was not a good situation. The concept of CNG at that time in buses was still pretty early and it went miserable.
CNG now is actually a very viable alternative, and it has come a very long way. I would have no worries about running CNG buses in cold climates now. |
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Kodie
Top Member
United States
2028 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2009 : 10:28:21 PM
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| We have been ordering RE's since 99 (oldest RE is a 2000 AmTran RE) and still do today. We have also ordered a few IC CE's as well. I was talking to our transportation director and he mentioned that we may switch over to conventionals from now on because they are easier to service. From what I've seen our RE's are nice buses, and have equal the amount of problems any CE or FE might have. Our newer RE's have the full length rear mudflap, and those buses seem to be holding up quite well. I do think that they RE has improved alot over the past few years, but there is some more work that could be done. Let's see if the new AARE can change our opinions of RE's for the better. |
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Re's
