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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
 Posted - 09/16/2002 : 11:36:45 AM
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By glancing at the Thomas brochure on the HDX model, I have decided on the flaws of the cockpit area.
Below are some photos I scanned out of the brochure, and I have edited to show some of my points.
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Photograph One
That woman is Bea... according to Thomas, she is only "4' 11", 126 lbs and still completely in command."
Now yes, she is indeed driving the bus properly, but, as pointed out by the RED line, she would have to look down and right just to see numerous guages. Also, the height of the entire dash area cuts back on the amount of foward visibility, since she is so short, thus making the possibility of running a child over much greater.
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Photograph Two
This is John.... who is "6'7" and 265 lbs and fit comfortably in the cockpit." John is a PERFECT example of where the HDX fails. One major flaw for him is the way he has to look down to see guages. He has to look down a lot further than Bea.
Also with John, his left leg is blocking the switches (see picture 3) and his knee can EASILY hit the parking brake, possibly when the bus is in motion. Also, if John needed to reach for the switches below, or next to, or directly near the steering wheel and guages, he would have to bend in his seat, pretty far down, once again, possibly when the bus is in motion.
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Photograph Three
To me, this photo is the absolute icing on the cake.
YELLOW HIGHLIGHTS= Dangerous, unreachable location in some cases, especially for tall or bulky drivers. Switches behind wheel can cause accident if arm gets caught when bus is in motion. Parking brake can be hit with knee, temperature/climate controls out of reach. Other areas that could not be yellowed includes the radio, ELMO system and two other switches to the left and behind of the steering wheel. One other switch is the one to the right of the guages, which can be touched by boarding students and not reached by driver when in motion.
PINK HIGHLIGTS= Dangerous pedal location. With large tilted throttle, the throttle can be mistaken for the brake towards the bottom half section. Brake is unusually small, compared to other buses. Also, not much room for left foot/leg to rest.
GREEN HIGHLIGHT= Location too low, can be hit by left leg. Switches closest to windsheild can be hard to access. Steering wheel could be accidentely turned when reaching for those switches.
OTHER PROBLEMS= Location of gauges is too far down and too far to the right.
NON COCKPIT PROBLEMS= Integrated mirrors can confuse some drivers not used to them due to them being used to standard "jungle gym" mirrors.
This is just my observation on the issue, and I know others will try to bash me, but I would like to see their photographic evidence as well.
Thanks!  |
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Skewl Bus Boi
Advanced Member
USA
323 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 11:57:41 AM
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There are some things you just can't tell by these photos. You make some good points, but you can't really know for sure without sitting in the driver's seat.
Give me a bus, people of different size ranges, and a camera and I'd prove it to you, but unfortunately I can't. I have, however, spent some time behind the wheel of parked HDXs, and there are some good features.
The pedals certainly aren't dangerous. I prefer the floor-mounted, large treadle valve for the brakes, but the design of the brake pedal works just fine. I also know for a fact that there's plenty of room for your left foot, the photos just don't show it.
Bea wouldn't be in danger of running over a student if she's using her mirrors properly.
One thing I DON'T like about the HDX, however, is the huge windshield. The bottom of the glass is blocked by the dash, so there's no point to having that much glass. More broken glass in an accident, and more money if the windshield gets broken.
I also don't like the location of everything on the dash. The guages should be behind the wheel, clearly visible, and everything else should be on the right.
—Phil
"Blue Bird!" "of happiness?" |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 12:06:25 PM
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Skewl Bus Boi writes...
quote:
Bea wouldn't be in danger of running over a student if she's using her mirrors properly.
Well Phil, what if Bea was in a complete hurry, and possibly didn't know how to properly adjust the Euro mirrors? Some drivers, who have never been in an HDX could have difficulties with the HDX mirrors, however, I hope it never happens.
I'm just presenting the worst case scenarios.
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God Bless America!
http://www.schoolbuscentral.cjb.net
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 12:13:11 PM
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quote:
One thing I DON'T like about the HDX, however, is the huge windshield. The bottom of the glass is blocked by the dash, so there's no point to having that much glass. More broken glass in an accident, and more money if the windshield gets broken.
I also don't like the location of everything on the dash. The guages should be behind the wheel, clearly visible, and everything else should be on the right.
I agree, Phil. The side views of the driver area from the brochure do a good job of illustrating how much of the windshield the dash board actually blocks.
I also agree about the actual gauge placement on the dash board. As you probably read in my other posting in the favorite dash board layout topic, I'm not a big fan of the Thomas HDX's dash board layout, hehe. As Jason noted in that topic, he wasn't comfortable with the International RE's dash board placement — well, it's the same for me with the Thomas HDX; I have never felt comfortable sitting behind the wheel of one with the gauges and other controls where they are, and I'm afraid that I never will be.
I guess it all comes down to a matter of personal preference and which design you feel most comfortable with. And, as I said in the other topic, the two rear engine school buses that I feel most comfortable with from a driver's point of view right now are the IC RE and the Blue Bird All American RE.
Crown Supercoach - The “Royalty” of Pupil Transportation |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 1:37:55 PM
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Well, this Friday I will be visiting both New York Thomas dealers, so I will know how the dash set up is first hand. I will have many pics taken, so don't fret. 
I officially want this week to fly super fast... hehehe
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God Bless America!
http://www.schoolbuscentral.cjb.net
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 2:04:04 PM
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Richard, for one the left hand control panel should be no problem at all. It's been used since at least 1993 with no problems. If there were problems, I'm sure it'd be redesigned.
The pedals... I'm assuming they're turned like that for a reason. Imagine sitting there. Your foot would most likely be in between the two pedals. The throttle is just to your right in a slight angled and relaxed position. It'd acutally be safer like that as you only have to put your foot in a straight position to hit the brakes. When my computer's steering wheel and pedals worked for games, I actually have them tilted in this way but simply because it feels better.
The guages... I agree that they are quite low and you would be looking down there, but it would look as if when you're checking your guages you can also check your crossview. It's near the same level, in your peripheral vision.
For the gear panel and the parking brakes... There should be no problem there. On our EFs the parking brake is in the same location and on earlier models, so is the headlight switch. Why aren't you complaining about that dash?
Just a little food for thought.
Stop at: http://www.buses.cjb.net
Forums: http://thebusboy.proboards2.com
This is an industry where people brag about their times for 60-0, not 0-60. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 3:33:09 PM
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quote:
This is John.... who is "6'7" and 265 lbs and fit comfortably in the cockpit." John is a PERFECT example of where the HDX fails. One major flaw for him is the way he has to look down to see guages. He has to look down a lot further than Bea.
I am a similar example to John. hehehe I'm 6'5" and I have encountered numerous occasions where I have almost hit the parking brake valve on both the Thomas and Blue Bird transit-style buses.
quote:
Also with John, his left leg is blocking the switches (see picture 3) and his knee can EASILY hit the parking brake, possibly when the bus is in motion.
Keep in mind, Blue Bird also has the parking brake knob at knee-level, too. I don't see where that would become a problem if the bus is in motion, though. When the bus is in motion, the parking brake is not set lol!!
The first and only time I sat in this bus was at the STN show in Reno. I found out why the dashboard was designed to be placed to the right of the driver. First of all, yes, Thomas did receive feedback from bus drivers, but Thomas thought it would be a good idea to move it out of the way of the steering wheel area. That way the view of the dashboard would be unobstructed by the steering wheel. That was the main reason. Then all of the gauges could be viewed that way.
I do not like the placement of the dashboard. I am used to having it in front of me, and that's where I want it. But, with the dashboard being to the right of the driver, that makes room to have switches located to the front of the driver. Some of which may become obstructed by the steering wheel.
The IC conventional was also designed with driver input, but their dashboard is still mounted in front of the driver.
The dashboard you will see in the HDX and conventional is a Freightliner dashboard. One thing I don't like about that dashboard is that it's missing a couple gauges, depending on which gauge package you spec out. Both of the set ups I have seen are missing the battery/volts gauge. And then the other package you can get has 2 air pressure gauges, RPM, MPH, Fuel, and Water temperature. Then you can have 2 of any of these gauges, but not all of them, due to lack of space: the transmission temp. gauge, the alternator gauge, or the oil pressure gauge. They can mount another gauge on the dashboard if you really want it, but it won't be with the rest of the gauges. I like all of my gauges in one place.
I will go into more details about the Blue Bird, IC, and Thomas dashboards in the "Your Favorite Dashboard" topic located under this Forum.
_________________________
-Bob
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:04:18 PM
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Keep in mind, you've gotta give the bus a chance. The front end is all redesigned and naturally it will have some problems. The ones you've listed I don't think are too relavent but I'm sure Thomas would take them into consideration. We might as well start a topic involving flaws of the new IC cockpit and the new BB Conventional cockpit and the new BB All American cockpit. Eh?
Stop at: http://www.buses.cjb.net
Forums: http://thebusboy.proboards2.com
This is an industry where people brag about their times for 60-0, not 0-60. |
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Steven A.Rosenow
Top Member
USA
1926 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:08:18 PM
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Ya know, I wish people would give the Thomas Saf-T-Liner HDX a chance, for God's sake.
It's only been out two years, and already it seems that nobody likes the change. Personally, I like it. I would rather have my view of the instrumentation unobstructed by the steering wheel, rather than directly behind it. Theoretically, it's better that way.
The same stuff I'm hearing now about the HDX was said when the Taurus first debuted in December of 1985. "It's too fancy." or "I don't like how everything is so close." ... Well, in two years, the Taurus became America's Best Selling Car until 1994.
Honestly, I think the Thomas HDX should be the industry trend setter. School buses nowadays need to be more user friendly, and the dashboard designs most of all need to separate from the norm of what has been a standard bus dash. (I still don't get why bus designers won't copy the Taurus dash from 1989, LOL)
After all, these new designs haven't been proven unsafe. And I don't expect them to be, either.
 Now I can control my OWN traffic, with my OWN 3M High Visibility signal! |
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Rich
Top Member
United States
5768 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:11:40 PM
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The BusBoy writes...
quote:
We might as well start a topic involving flaws of the new IC cockpit and the new BB Conventional cockpit and the new BB All American cockpit. Eh?
LOL Mike, I only started this topic to make my evidence clear to Bret, who was bugging me for my reasons against the HDX.
Go right ahead and do constructive cristicism on the others, it's kinda fun to see every bus' strengths and weaknesses. 
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God Bless America!
http://www.schoolbuscentral.cjb.net
Edited by - bluebird4ever on 09/16/2002 4:25:51 PM
Edited by - bluebird4ever on 09/16/2002 4:26:20 PM |
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:13:00 PM
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quote:
The first and only time I sat in this bus was at the STN show in Reno. I found out why the dashboard was designed to be placed to the right of the driver. First of all, yes, Thomas did receive feedback from bus drivers, but Thomas thought it would be a good idea to move it out of the way of the steering wheel area. That way the view of the dashboard would be unobstructed by the steering wheel. That was the main reason. Then all of the gauges could be viewed that way.
That's exactly what I was thinking, Bob!
It seems like the input Thomas might've received from drivers was to make the speedometer easier to view without the steering wheel in the way — Thomas's response to that request being the relocation of the speedometer, as well as other gauges, to the right of the steering wheel.
As a side note, I also like having a separate gauge for everything and having them all located together. I've never been too big on those LCD displays. Some of the 2000 Blue Bird All American REs that I rode in high school had a similar set up. I never cared for it then, and I never cared for it later on when I was trained in those same buses.
Crown Supercoach - The “Royalty” of Pupil Transportation |
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Buskid
Top Member
USA
3368 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:21:04 PM
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quote:
Honestly, I think the Thomas HDX should be the industry trend setter. School buses nowadays need to be more user friendly, and the dashboard designs most of all need to separate from the norm of what has been a standard bus dash. (I still don't get why bus designers won't copy the Taurus dash from 1989, LOL)
After all, these new designs haven't been proven unsafe. And I don't expect them to be, either.
Hey Steve
I don't believe that the Thomas HDX's dash board layout is unsafe, nor do I think that I am being unfair to it in anyway by saying what I have in both this topic and the favorite dash board layout one. I simply just don't find its dash board layout very user-friendly myself — the dash board layout is actually one of the very few things on the bus itself that I don't like. There are plenty of items on the Thomas HDX that I do like.
I personally hope that IC Corp. and Blue Bird keep the current designs that they have going for their own dash board layouts. I feel a lot more comfortable with them than I do with the one that's currently used in the Thomas HDX.
Just my 2¢, I'm not trying to bash the Thomas HDX in any way.
Crown Supercoach - The “Royalty” of Pupil Transportation |
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1983WardFord
Top Member
USA
1395 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:54:54 PM
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quote:
Well Phil, what if Bea was in a complete hurry, and possibly didn't know how to properly adjust the Euro mirrors? Some drivers, who have never been in an HDX could have difficulties with the HDX mirrors, however, I hope it never happens.
If that's the case, then the driver shouldn't be on the road. A driver should ALWAYS ask how to do something they're not sure of. And even if she was in a "complete hurry" (as opposed to an incomplete hurry???), that shouldn't stop her from learning the basics of the bus. It's better to be a few minutes late than it is to fly through the route and run the risk of making mistakes... or worse yet, running over someone.
With that said, I haven't sat in an HDX recently to where I can tell you all exactly what I think of it. I know I don't care too much for the gauge placement. I do like the mirror setup on it, and I found nothing wrong with the placement of the switches, parking brake, etc. When and if I get a chance, I'll go sit in one to see what I think of it.
Ryan's School Bus Yard--www.busman49.com
RSBY gift shop--www.busman49.com/store.html |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 4:55:06 PM
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Subsbd,
Thanks for the info regarding the battery gauge. I did have a feeling that it would be in that LCD display on the dashboard, but I wasn't sure, since I haven't seen the LCD display...I haven't been on the inside of those school buses while they were actually running.
I definitely think the HDX is a worthy school bus in today's industry. We all have our favorites! If I had it my way, I would go to my IC Corp., Blue Bird, and Thomas dealer and take out an RE from each of those dealers for about 2 weeks, give each bus a thorough test drive, then I would report my results in a more accurate way.
I haven't driven any RE buses. I cannot speak from experience. I can only speak from what I have seen, based upon my opinion. Until I've been driving buses for 30+ years, I'll just have to give you my opinion on what I've seen for now.
_________________________
-Bob
Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 09/16/2002 5:55:23 PM |
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thomas86_a
Top Member
USA
4413 Posts |
Posted - 09/16/2002 : 5:38:31 PM
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BlueBird4Ever,
First,
I'd like to thank you for doing such an excellent job. You were going on and on in chat about how you didn't like the HDX, and I asked for a few examples, you wouldn't give me any, on the other hand I didn't expect you to go this far. I would not consider it "bugging" you. Since when is it bugging someone to support their own statements?
Secondly, putting those red/blue lines on the pictures you got out of the advertisements is not 100% accurate, and until you have drivin an HDX, you really can not comment on sight lines as much, because really it may look like it is way out of the sight line, when in reality it's not as bad as your pictures are showing.
Thirdly, the control panel, it's placed there for a reason, it's been in the general area for years, it's easy to reach and easy to see, and with the large back-lit rocker style switches Thomas uses, there shouldn't be any problem at all. Yes when the driver is sitting in the seat, and you look in the bus from the outside, his left leg will be blocking your view of the panel, but guess what, his or her left arm is on the left side of his or her body, with the human arm being strategically placed the way it is, the left leg will not be blocking the switches in any way.
Fourthly, as for students being able to touch certain switches while boarding, they can do that on just about any bus, take the simple International 3800, the ignition, headlights and cruise control switches are in easy reach.
Fifthly, I just want to say, I have made an effort to avoid "bashing" Blue Bird and AmTran products all I was doing was asking for reasons as to why BlueBird4Ever did not like the HDX, so that I could get the opinions of others, I'm well aware of the fact that there are drivers who do not like the Saf-T-Liner, and that's fine I respect their opinions, as it's exactly that their own opinions.
"America's #1 Conventional School Bus- Thomas/International."
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Thomasfan89
Top Member
USA
1155 Posts |
Posted - 09/17/2002 : 6:18:53 PM
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I agree with Steven. Give it a chance. Yes it does have its flaws, but I feel any driver after driving it for a while will naturarlly get used to it.I like much of the styling and there are things I don't like.
Well that's my 25 cents.
Greg Hovan
Visit the school bus garage http://schoolbusgarage.tripod.com |
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1983WardFord
Top Member
USA
1395 Posts |
Posted - 02/25/2015 : 12:16:23 PM
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13 years later and i finally got to drive one...I had my reservations about posting in response to a topic that's over a decade old, especially since most of the original posters have gone on away from the forum. Despite that, I finally decided that I'd put my $.02 in if for no other reason than because I can!
I do NOT like where the gauge cluster is located. I don't care that it's a Freightliner part and it standardizes their parts (never mind that the EF kept its gauge cluster in some form until 2012 when they shifted it to that same horrible location). I do not like looking that far to the right and down while driving to tell how fast I'm going. At least on the 3800s I could drop my eyes straight down. This is by far my biggest turn-off of the bus.
I also feel that the convex mirrors need to be a little taller. Otherwise, I don't mind the mirror setup.
The one I drove had the gearshift to the right of the driver's seat, which is kind of a funny spot, but I didn't mind it too much. |
Due to the current economic condition, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice. |
Edited by - 1983WardFord on 02/25/2015 12:19:13 PM |
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The Flaws of the HDX Cockpit
