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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2018 :  10:25:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.cnn.com/2018/05/17/us/new-jersey-school-bus-crash/index.html

Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2018 :  12:25:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Newest reports are saying at least 2 dead, NTSB is either on the way or there already. I believe this is a seat belt state.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2018 :  12:38:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Doesn't look like anyone tapped the brakes, the school bus body is completley ripped off the frame. That's terrible.
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tigger2
Advanced Member

USA
469 Posts

Posted - 05/17/2018 :  4:22:37 PM  Show Profile  Click to see tigger2's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
This unfortunate event will be one to watch, did the belts help? The news reports stated the bus had belts. Our prayers for the victims and their families.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  05:27:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Prayers for sure! I'm also wondering if the body mounts were cracked like I've seen on mine. Like Trigger said, it will be one to watch.

Bryan
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  05:35:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Prayers for sure! I'm also wondering if the body mounts were cracked like I've seen on mine. Like Trigger said, it will be one to watch.



Where are you body mounts cracked at? IC bus? It's looking like now that the driver of the bus may have been making a u turn at the time of the accident.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  05:43:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-jersey-school-bus-crash-driver-illegal-u-turn-officials-say/

US Army retired CMBT
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  06:20:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some have reported the floor sills cracked or otherwise damaged at the points where the bolt for the mounting clip or j-hook bolt pass through. Navistar has a field fix kit for this issue. I've not had one do this yet.

Looks like the bus body stayed together and did it's job. This makes the 3rd major bus crash with belts in recent years (2 school, 1 motorcoach), minimal loss of life. The debate will reignite and I believe the camp that most of us are in will not be the winner.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  07:12:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Some have reported the floor sills cracked or otherwise damaged at the points where the bold for the mounting clip or j-hook bolt pass through. Navistar has a field fix kit for this issue. I've not had one do this yet.

Looks like the bus body stayed together and did it's job. This makes the 3rd major bus crash with belts in recent years (2 school, 1 motorcoach), minimal loss of life. The debate will reignite and I believe the camp that most of us are in will not be the winner.



That is correct, the "sills" are cracking and coming apart along the 90 degree bend. Mine have been fixed with the kit. I had them welded by the dealer a few years back but they cracked again. I believe it's a metallurgical problem. Anyway, I know the body is supposed to separate but what are the parameters?

As for the debate, I don't mind it at all. What I fear is that politicians will make laws based upon "feelings" and not facts. The facts are that more kids will get hurt in the many more minor accidents that happen than they do now. As gruesome as it sounds, I still want to know if children were thrown out of the student windows in Chattanooga. If that's the case, the fix is laminated windows that stay in place and keep students inside the bus. I will say, though, the prices are coming down on seat belt seats and they are dealing with the capacity issue as well.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  07:31:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just for kicks, I went back to the spreadsheet from my last bus purchase which was December. This is a pool-purchase where you just pick the line items you want and order the bus.

Upcharge for all seats with 3 lapbelts on a 78 passenger bus from the 3 dealers for my area:

Blue Bird: $2,470 IC: $806 Thomas: $1,872

Upcharge for all seats with 3 3-point belts on a 78 passenger bus, same dealers:

Blue Bird: No bid IC: $11,700 Thomas: $11,180
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  08:32:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bird has a new seat system as of March of last year. Wonder how that will work out? Thinking about them now.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  08:54:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Those were listed as an option, seatbelt ready, plain backs (no belts, harnesses) $910 upcharge for a 78 passenger bus. No price for the actual belted type backs.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  10:50:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.nbcconnecticut.com/news/national-international/New-Jersey-School-Bus-Crash-Class-Field-Trip-I-80-Investigation-483006241.html

US Army retired CMBT
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  10:53:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just received Visions with the new seats in April. They're "seat belt ready" for lap belts, but there is no option for an integrated child seat in the new-style seat. This is a big issue with us.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  11:46:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/577beb319f74567384fc9f49/t/5a0daffe0d92976b6131e694/1510846466851/nextgen-spec-sheet-UPDATED.pdf it shows an integrated option, just not in fold-down form anymore
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/18/2018 :  11:50:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks RonF for the link. Part of me hopes that the video evidence is made public, part of me doesn't want to see it. I think this will be the first time we've had a video of a body/chassis separation.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  05:12:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Thanks RonF for the link. Part of me hopes that the video evidence is made public, part of me doesn't want to see it. I think this will be the first time we've had a video of a body/chassis separation.



I hear ya on that one. By looking at the pictures and how I think it happened, I bet the body got hooked on the guard rail and the truck's bumper was locked in on the buses frame, separating the two.

US Army retired CMBT
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  06:14:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
People look at it as a bad thing, I look at it as good. All of those body clips bending, bolts bending/breaking...that absorbs a lot of energy.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  07:42:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't find the link on my laptop, but I'm reading on my phone from School bus drivers on Face book and nj1015.com says an official who viewed the video said the bus driver came up that entrance ramp in the picture and immediately took a left across all 3 lanes to enter the emergency vehicle u turn lane. The dump truck was in the second lane from the right when the bus turned in front of it. It did not appear that the dump truck was speeding.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  07:52:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://nj1015.com/traffic-cam-confirms-school-bus-crossed-3-lanes-after-missing-exit/

US Army retired CMBT
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  08:38:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What on earth was he/she thinking by trying a stunt like that? My goodness.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  08:49:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

What on earth was he/she thinking by trying a stunt like that? My goodness.



Yeah, or worse yet. They have done this before?

US Army retired CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2018 :  12:02:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is the New York area. Never been there as an adult but I've heard there are some of the worst drivers in the world there. I cannot understand why someone would want to live in such a crowded area. 27,000 people per square mile vs. 13.7 people per square mile in my area.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2018 :  04:23:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It came out last night that the driver is 77 years old. So get ready for not one but two fun debates! Seatbelts and age requirements. Please note that I'm not saying age was the factor here, but you know the media will run with it.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2018 :  12:27:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was at the bird dealer today and they have a display of the new convertible seat with 3-point belts. I'm 5'11" and that put the point where the belt exits at the top edge of the seat into my shoulder blade. The belt had to go up over my shoulder, then down and across my chest.

It'll be fine for younger/shorter riders, but your older/taller ones aren't going to use the things, in my opinion.
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 05/22/2018 :  1:05:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for that link for seats further up the board. I can't imagine ambulatory middle school students trying to sit on the built-in car seat belts, either. We really like the harnesses you can fold up into the seat; these new seats are a strike against Blue Bird in my opinion.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  06:07:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

Thanks for that link for seats further up the board. I can't imagine ambulatory middle school students trying to sit on the built-in car seat belts, either. We really like the harnesses you can fold up into the seat; these new seats are a strike against Blue Bird in my opinion.


We'll see I guess. There aren't that many out there are there? I looked at cost. I can add these convertible seats, with just the plain back and two seats in front with the child belts built in, for less than $500 more per bus over the old seats and two CE Whites in the front. My thought is that we will be poised to add seat belts if our district or legislature wants to force the issue. They have ground on us so much that I think it's probably a foregone conclusion at this point. I think better money would be spent on laminated windows for the student's side windows. I know it sounds morbid, but I still think the kids that are hurt bad or killed are exiting the bus via the side windows that break up into tiny rocks. There needs to be a study!

Bryan
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  06:21:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think shoulder/lap belts are inevitable at this point.

As buses equipped with shoulder/lap belts become more prevalent, it will only be a matter of time until one of those buses is involved in a catastrophic collision. In one of those events, a child will be seriously injured or killed because they will be trapped in their belt; maybe in a fire; maybe under water; maybe crushed at the point of impact instead of being thrown clear. How will we feel about shoulder/lap belts then?

In New Jersey, two people died, but more than forty people survived. Would lap/shoulder belts have improved those numbers? We'll have to wait to see the results of the investigation.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  06:39:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Cardinal won't spec the CE white seats with built-ins for you anymore? That stinks.

Still waiting to hear where the fatalities were seated.
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kummins
Active Member

41 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  06:45:50 AM  Show Profile  Visit kummins's Homepage  Reply with Quote
couple thoughts...

1) that driver, regardless of age, should be jailed for such a dumb/stupid, risky maneuver especially when transporting precious cargo.


2) seat belts... will they incorporate an interlock system which prevents the bus from moving when any child is not fastened in properly? the technology exists for it, but will/should they utilyze it?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  07:07:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Cardinal won't spec the CE white seats with built-ins for you anymore? That stinks.

Still waiting to hear where the fatalities were seated.



My dealer isn't Cardinal. It's not that they won't sell them, it's something I want to try.

@kummins, number 2 will never happen. It's going to be all on the driver to make sure they are in their seatbelt. lol The bus would never move on some routes.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  07:20:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry that was meant for Sherm
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  08:04:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
TB24, the CE White seats are not compatible with the new seat belt-ready seats. I doubt CE White seats will be a Bird option on the MEC bid but I'm going to ask.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  11:11:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a story on the NTSB findings from Chattanooga and Baltimore. https://stnonline.com/news/latest-news/item/9495-ntsb-concludes-driver-district-and-contractor-failures-in-fatal-school-bus-crashes?utm_source=eNews+5.23.18&utm_campaign=STN+Enews+&utm_medium=email

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  12:27:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When Tennessee started talking about seat belts on buses, our dealers told me that they were told not even to talk to anyone about retro'ing seat belts on a bus that did not come with them. They were basically told that retro'ing seat belts would open up a Pandora's Box of liability.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 05/23/2018 :  1:08:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

It came out last night that the driver is 77 years old. So get ready for not one but two fun debates! Seatbelts and age requirements. Please note that I'm not saying age was the factor here, but you know the media will run with it.



Yep, just heard this on the radio. How old was that guy in Chattanooga? Aren't they saying he was too young? 25 to 50 I guess. Woo Whoo! I get to leave in December! lol

Bryan
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