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Jon the Mekanik
Active Member
46 Posts |
 Posted - 02/07/2018 : 1:07:05 PM
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We have to idle the buses because of the cold for hours. And its killing the Emission systems all combination of code and problems.
and check engine code come on and off all the time. To many to list. Then when you talk to any one at the dealer for any information they read from a book. Well we all know the first problem is idling well cant do any thing about that. The bus has to be warm for the customer and the more a drive has contact with the road in icy conditions to burn it out the more chance the bus will not come back in the same condition if it can drive back at all. and if the bus doesn't get to temp it cant regine , and the keep drivers they quit if the bus is to cold. well the dealers cant get pass that. Short of replacing everything and cleaning the egr what dose a person do. There are truck fleets that spend 8,000 to 12'000 on the replacement and cleaning of the hole system at what ever miles. My problem starts at 80,000 some at 40,000. |
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Ryan5r
Senior Member
USA
55 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 1:18:50 PM
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| Are they kicking the idle up? |
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muddywater
Senior Member
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/07/2018 : 3:34:01 PM
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First, are you preheating the bus's with block heaters? #2, have you ever considered a Webasto type heater, we run our Webasto heaters out on trips, it will get a cold bus up to temp quicker, and supplement the engine generated coolant temp going down the road for heating the inside of the bus. You can also set the timer to get the coolant temp up before the driver shows up to start the bus. They are also cheaper to run than letting the engine idle. If you do consider a Webasto heater, get the big one, it's called "scholastic series." Don't mess around with the smaller BTU series they have.
I don't know if that would totally mitigate your problems, but you would have happier drivers and probably less maintenance costs on your DPF systems....just a thought. |
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Jon the Mekanik
Active Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 05:46:10 AM
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| Frist we do plug then in. We have looked in to webasto but I have yet to get the real life information for these like how much does it cost to install the whole thing fuel lines and the compartment its in.And what to look out for and what to change on the service for worry free operation.the sales men will tell you any thing but he's not out there trying to start a bus at-30 when the drive has to go and is late and the trans oil is so cold the trans will not shift are the air door will not work and you have no spares left. I got this fleet 2 years a go and to save face for my company I will not talk about how bad it was but now that's it has stabilized and I don't run around like a mad man trying to make pull out we are try to jump ahead of some of the repairs. sorry for the lack of punctuation. I just have not had any one but my self that understand how f$%ked it is when people think you can run fleet like a back yard shop and on a bottom dolor budget.you patch things for 20 years and then you face buses with dpf and try to cheap out on that your pulling a pin on a grenade. Sorry for the vent there no were to vent that people know what your talking about. Sorry for the unpracticed typing. Thanks for all you guys just try to not reinvent the wheel. I know running the bus in the morning has to in but you have to make pull out keeping in mind most of the drivers have no trouble shoot skills the bus can be in drive and they call asking why it wont start. |
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Jon the Mekanik
Active Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 05:50:18 AM
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I now realize I type like I am talking to some one lol
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 05:57:42 AM
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| Hang in there...with your attention to detail and some helpful advice from others, you will find a way to get things turned around. |
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drp53188
Senior Member
89 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 10:18:01 AM
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Wabasto heaters are MONEY PITS, I have 50 of them that worked great for the first three years but after that nothing but problems even with the pm on them every summer, nozzles / wiring / timers /relays etc. as for cost installed with 7 day timers $5000.00 each.
I have shut all of them off and went back to using the block heaters with an electronic 7 day timer, Just my 2 cents. |
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muddywater
Senior Member
USA
50 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 10:35:11 AM
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Sherm is right, "hang in there", "Rome wasn't built in a day."
With my lack of experience it took me about two days to install the first Webasto, then by the third one, I was down to about six to eight hours. That is total out the door. There are two critical thing to pay close attention to, #1, when doing the plumping of the heater into the bus, know which line is coming from the engine block and which one is going to the engine block. Just run the bus and heat pump to tell which line is heating first. On my bus's, I changed all the heaters to be plumped in series, and changed any that were plumped in parallel to series flow, that way you always have positive coolant flow. The reason for this is because you can get the bus's heat pump pushing the coolant toward the Webasto and the heat pump in the Webasto pumping coolant toward the bus's heat pump, offsetting each other and you have no coolant flow and that will burn out the thermal limiter in the Webasto unit. #2 You always have to have the ball/gate valve in the passenger compartment by the drivers seat OPEN to run the Webasto, otherwise you burn out the thermal limiter in the Webasto unit, I'm amazed how many thermal limiter's I replaced and found the heater flow control valve shut.
About problems with units, other than the thermal limiter fuse, which is not hard to replace, I have very few problems now. The initial clocks that came with the units were JUNK, and were pricey, at about $250.00 each. The ones that we are being supplied with now are about $300.00 or so, and they are doing much better. The fuel filter is inexpensive and stocked by local parts house, I change it every summer when doing my annual bus filter replacement. The Webasto units come in a self contained metal box, just build a couple of "L" brackets out of 1.25 angle iron and hang the unit on the outside of the bus frame on the drivers side about 1/3, or so, the way back of the bus.
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 11:12:09 AM
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We have some Espars which can work great....
Our problems are mostly caused by the all the fine dust from the crushed limestone our county uses on the gravel roads, it gets packed into the combustion air fans on the units. Like rear engine buses don't like gravel roads, the closer I have mounted the heaters to the front of the bus, the less problem with road dust. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2018 : 12:15:59 PM
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| Were up in Canada so its been pretty cold up here lately. Most of the buses we service have wabasos installed . The owners like them and yes they defiantly do not last forever. But you set your timer and I think it bring them up to 150f so your ready to roll. Have to have good batterys though. What I have done is set up a test bench [old tool box with battery] , used a extra harness I had. So if there is any problems I just plug in hit the switch and if it goes wiring issue, if not a unit issue. I also had enough broken units around to make up a extra one that works. So if its a unit problem I throw my test one in and get them going. Either fix there's or order a new one. Just my last thoughts and I just fix buses we do not own any buses. The last few new buses bought by owners I know have been gas ones because of the emission issues with these new ones especially in the winter. The older buses seem more reliable than the newer ones. Good luck. |
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g0ttadrift
Advanced Member
USA
258 Posts |
Posted - 02/09/2018 : 7:11:42 PM
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| We ran ESPAR heaters and within the first three years, 25% of the fleet had bad computers. The other 40% had problems with the pump, glow plugs, temp sensors, you name it. So these past two years we ordered buses with Webasto heaters. I have to agree with drp53188...Almost all of the 12 buses we ordered last year have inoperable heaters. So this year we installed more plug in outlets for the buses outside and will just plug them in from now on. Cost of a new block heater.....$50. |
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tigger2
Advanced Member
USA
469 Posts |
Posted - 02/10/2018 : 4:49:54 PM
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| Please let us know what engine and bus company you are dealing with. As for preheated we order Webasto installed in their own compartment easier to work on and keeps things cleaner. The Cummins engine can be set to zero miles per hour in mobile regen mode so when bus slows down the regen can keep on going even in low speed driving. |
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 02/11/2018 : 7:15:24 PM
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We use the "Webasto 2010 Schoolastic" heaters. We tried the Webasto TSL17...Waste of time and money. We had a sales person talk us in to Espar heaters on 5 buses. Two failed on warranty...no repair was attempted by the dealer. The Espar heaters were just replaced.
We have retrofitted some buses with 2010 Webasto heaters. We have a local metal fab shop that builds the box to go into the skirt for half the price of buying the box from the bus dealer.
You can reduce the incidence of overheat fuse failure by replacing the control thermostat with one from a Webasto 2020. This control thermostat cycles at temperatures a few degrees cooler.
Operating the Webasto on buses with DEF systems will reduce the incidence of failure due to Def tank not thawing. |
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Jon the Mekanik
Active Member
46 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2018 : 09:12:51 AM
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| Never thought to check the regen speed where do you do that on insite |
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enokradeht
Active Member
United States
27 Posts |
Posted - 03/02/2018 : 7:17:42 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Cal Mc
We use the "Webasto 2010 Schoolastic" heaters. We tried the Webasto TSL17...Waste of time and money. We had a sales person talk us in to Espar heaters on 5 buses. Two failed on warranty...no repair was attempted by the dealer. The Espar heaters were just replaced.
We have retrofitted some buses with 2010 Webasto heaters. We have a local metal fab shop that builds the box to go into the skirt for half the price of buying the box from the bus dealer.
You can reduce the incidence of overheat fuse failure by replacing the control thermostat with one from a Webasto 2020. This control thermostat cycles at temperatures a few degrees cooler.
Operating the Webasto on buses with DEF systems will reduce the incidence of failure due to Def tank not thawing.
Amen to the no derate thanks to webasto, be sure to set timer far enough ahead or still will bite |
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Rich Michels
Active Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 03/11/2018 : 09:50:16 AM
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We run the Webasto top c heaters. We set the timer to run 1 1/2 hours before the driver starts the Pre-trip. We make sure there's heat at the defroster so the windshield is clear when the driver pulls out of the yard. The plumbing is setup that the heater only heats the engine block, it is not tied into the body heater lines. We switch out a questionable heater and bench test it. It's easy to make a test stand for it, we removed a underseat heater from a bus going to the scrap yard and plumbed it to the heater.
We found that proper use of the hi idle switch along with the webasto heaters has cut our DPF issues to nil. I hold a class each year, to train the drivers on the after treatment system. |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 03/13/2018 : 06:53:16 AM
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| If idling for extended periods, idle at 1000 rpm or higher. I recomend starting buses 1 hour before trip time verses running for extended periods. Following the manufacturers cold climate operating recommendations is a minimum. To prevent dpf plugging have drivers run in a lower gear. My rule of thumb is, 2nd gear to 25 mph, 3rd gear to 35 mph and so forth. This helps keep exhaust heat high. If you have access to electrical power there are many options which will assist you including stick on warming pads, normally used for oil pans, which can be adhered to any smooth surface. These can go on transmission pan and air door cylinder and are available in various wattage. I have sold, installed and used many Webasto coolant heating systems which have proven very dependable. As others have stated, they are a maintenance item and depending on various issues such as fuel quality reliability can be varied. |
Brad A. Barker |
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Emissions Nightmare
