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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
 Posted - 06/26/2017 : 1:29:22 PM
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Just got back from TASBT conference (Texas Association for School Bus Technicians) and spoke to the IC rep about the new PSI engine (gasser bus was there). I asked about fuel mileage and he said it's the same as the Cummins engine (I doubt it). I took a real good look at it and noticed the engine sits high above the frame making it eay to acces the spark plugs unlike the V10 in the BB. The rep said one problem they are having with them so far are the fuel pumps going out too quick and they are located in the fuel tank and the tank needs to drop to replace the fuel pump. They found that the reason the pumps are crapping out too quick is due to the operator not waiting for the fuel pressure to build before they crank on them. When the engine is shut off the fuel lines do not stay pressurized therfore when you turn the key on you have to wait a few seconds to let the fuel pump pressurize the fuel lines.
Also spoke with Jasper engine people and told them what I thought about their 6.o injectors, he apoligized to no end. And of course they are building their own injectors now instead of using someone elses. He claimed they found and fixed the injector issue themselves. He talked a good game. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 06/26/2017 : 3:42:24 PM
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Very interesting information Joe! Nice to get a little detailed info on the engine and how it's doing. I would agree that being mounted higher would give you better access on the sides. The only thing that might be less appealing would be if you had to get down in the V (presumably where the intakes are located) to do something. Aside form intakes, there could be some other accessories mounted down in there. At least you won't have all that turbo piping and other garbage in the way there.
As far as the fuel pumps go...that sounds like a garbage explanation to me! I could definitely see that causing longer crank times or starting difficulties, but it shouldn't affect the pump one way or the other. As long as the pump is immersed in the fuel and the filter(s) is/are not clogged, there's no reason that the pump should fail prematurely. However, I'm not the engineer of the fuel system and that may be the true reason for the failures. If that is the reason, they ought to really think about redesigning that pump.
As far as redesigning goes...designing a better way to access the pump wouldn't hurt either. Although most gas engines still have in-tank pumps, many manufacturers (at least on cars) are designing access panels so that the pump can be reached without dropping the whole fuel tank. How silly of an idea was that to start with? I guess they just hope people would take them to the dealers and let the dealer drop the tank for some big $$.
Hopefully the bugs will work out of the engine in a few years and it will turn out to be a winner. IC is in desperate need of success. |
Edited by - International-9.0 on 06/26/2017 3:44:01 PM |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2017 : 04:28:37 AM
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| I know at first I said I would never try another Navistar engine but that was before I was set straight. Now knowing this is not from Navistar I would give this a go before I would the BB V10. International-9.0 is right, I think the gassers are making a come back starting with this V8 from PSI. I hope they take the medium duty market by storm. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2017 : 06:37:55 AM
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| Good information, guys! Some points to add here. You don't have to have the V10 mounted high to get to the plugs, they go into the head from the top. Also, I don't think that the gas engine will get as much fuel mileage as the Cummins. That is unless the cummins is still getting in the 5 to 7 range. (I was under the assumption that Cummins was getting above 10) I really don't understand why anyone would be afraid of propane. I'll forgo the usual rant by just saying; it is a superior fuel for the times we live in. |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2017 : 12:39:45 PM
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Imagine what a beast the 8.8 litre PSI is on propane.
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2017 : 1:37:46 PM
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| You have to question the fuel economy statement from the standpoint that 1 gallon of Gasoline has 11% less energy content than 1 gallon of diesel. So the operation of the V-8 would have to be much more efficient than the I-6 just to compensate for the latent difference of the energy content of the fuel. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 06/27/2017 : 3:37:17 PM
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I meant to address the fuel economy claim and forgot...oops! I can go ahead and tell you that's a load of crap. There's no way you are gonna get exactly the same mileage. It might be somewhat in the range or reasonably comparable, but they aren't going to be the same.
I'm not sure on the percentage, but I do know it contains more energy, as stated. Diesel also run at a much higher thermal efficiency than gas engines do. So it's pretty much impossible for the mpg to match.
That's a salesman for you. However, I would venture a guess that it's definitely improved from the old days of gassers when mileage could really be atrocious. The engine will run a lower rpm and this will help. Less compression cycles and more burn time for the fuel. A 5 speed auto will also help a bit, too.
I will confess that I know nothing of either engine. I haven't seen one or worked on one. As far as which engine is "better" or which engine will perform better in the long run, your guess is as good as mine and probably much better. I think the V8 would be shorter having 2 fewer cylinders and would also be less plugs to change. However, there can be many other validating factors than this.
How come nobody has come out with a large inline 6 gasonline engine? The have a very inherent advantage in torque and balance (compared to V8). I know they are no good for light duty vehicle due to length, but medium duty trucks have enough space for the length of an inline 6. Imagine a big block inline 6 inside a medium duty frame? No turbo, emissions stuff or anything else. Long stroke, smaller bore, skinny block...and all kinds of space to work on either side! It would certainly make some mechanical work easier and simpler. Of course, I wouldn't rule out 4, 5 or 6 cylinder ecoboost (or competitive equivalent) engines in the future.
I think propane usually has a lower mpg and hp (although not much) than an equivalent gasoline engine. However, they can still be cheaper to operate if the price per gallon on propane is better. I do agree that they are much cleaner and about as safe as a gasoline engine. The tanks are protected pretty well and are really no more likely to be punctured than a gasoline tank. If either one opens up, you will have a helluvah problem either way. I would think it's a little more complicated to empty the propane tanks and the fuel delivery system might be a bit more complicated. Also, fuel availability is certainly more limited. Aside from those things, I wouldn't see a downside to propane. Particularly in comparison to the current diesels and their problems. |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 04:32:45 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
Imagine what a beast the 8.8 litre PSI is on propane.
They had the propane version there at the trade show as well. It's the same PSI V8 just converted to propane. I didn't ask any questions about it as I was more intrigued about the gasser. Propane for us is out of the question, without getting into a propane vs. gas war its just not for us due to its limits etc. |
Edited by - JoeHEB1 on 06/28/2017 11:32:33 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 05:34:46 AM
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I agree propane isn't for everyone. However, I think many are ruling it out just because it's not in their wheelhouse. Another thing that really irks me about propane is that people look at the price at U-haul as they drive by (rape comes to mind, but I digress). Please, if you are even slightly thinking about propane, call a supplier and tell them you have a fleet of x number and you purchase x number buses per year and your fleet will be replaced entirely in x number of years. And if the propane units are successful (like they've been in other places) your entire fleet will run on propane. That will get their attention and they will give you a good price. Don't forget to have them include the price of pumping/ storage equipment. We just signed a contract for $1.21 before any gov incentive that might come along. Many might ask why I promote this fuel so much without getting a dime more. This has to be successful on a large scale for it to have longevity. Besides, I like spreading the word about simplicity and peace of mind.
I would say the reason there isn't a big 6 cylinder is because one isn't currently being produced in mass quantities. Think about it, the three engines we're talking about here (Roush, PSI & Cleanfuel (now Agility)) are, or were, produced and successful in other markets. If you are going to start with a clean slate you are talking a lot of money in R&D. The complexity of any engine doesn't lend itself to being produced on a whim and being successful.
As for fuel economy. Maybe the salesman was talking about COA or CPM. If so, it might be comparable to a diesel.
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busman2014
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 09:26:34 AM
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| Jasper will not do the 8.8 gas engine just for IC buses. The demand would have to be a lot greater for them to get into that market. The BB V10 engine is produced by Ford, still today. A factory supported engine? Are a discontinued engine no longer in production or supported by the factory?? You can call Jasper and get a reman Ford V10 everyday of the week, but they do not offer an 8.8 or an 8.1 liter engine. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 10:07:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by busman2014
Jasper will not do the 8.8 gas engine just for IC buses. The demand would have to be a lot greater for them to get into that market. The BB V10 engine is produced by Ford, still today. A factory supported engine? Are a discontinued engine no longer in production or supported by the factory?? You can call Jasper and get a reman Ford V10 everyday of the week, but they do not offer an 8.8 or an 8.1 liter engine.
I was just talking to my dealer and he said he checked with Ford and a brand new, off the line, V10 replacement engine is 7,500 bucks! Further, he said you can buy all 10 injectors (gasoline) for about 600 bucks. Try either of those with a diesel. Even further, he said the price of a gas version vision (say that 10 times fast) is about 5 grand less than a 200 hp cummins equipped bus. Fuel mileage isn't official yet but looks to be in the 7 range for a gasoline bus. Of course, we all know that this all depends on the rear end gear ratio and the shift points. |
Bryan |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 10:31:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by busman2014
Jasper will not do the 8.8 gas engine just for IC buses. The demand would have to be a lot greater for them to get into that market. The BB V10 engine is produced by Ford, still today. A factory supported engine? Are a discontinued engine no longer in production or supported by the factory?? You can call Jasper and get a reman Ford V10 everyday of the week, but they do not offer an 8.8 or an 8.1 liter engine.
I was just talking to my dealer and he said he checked with Ford and a brand new, off the line, V10 replacement engine is 7,500 bucks! Further, he said you can buy all 10 injectors (gasoline) for about 600 bucks. Try either of those with a diesel. Even further, he said the price of a gas version vision (say that 10 times fast) is about 5 grand less than a 200 hp cummins equipped bus. Fuel mileage isn't official yet but looks to be in the 7 range for a gasoline bus. Of course, we all know that this all depends on the rear end gear ratio and the shift points.
Wow!!Exactly why I would like to go to gas. Less headaches, lower blood pressure and parts are way cheaper than diesel. Thanks for the info! |
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busman2014
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 11:26:44 AM
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| A jasper reman V10 is around $3,600.00 dealer cost. A cummins turbo will cost you that much. Gas mileage will vary from driver to driver in the BB. If they drive it like their car it will be in that 6-7 MPG range. If they drive it like a diesel school bus it will be in the 4-5 MPG range. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 12:28:20 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by busman2014
A jasper reman V10 is around $3,600.00 dealer cost. A cummins turbo will cost you that much. Gas mileage will vary from driver to driver in the BB. If they drive it like their car it will be in that 6-7 MPG range. If they drive it like a diesel school bus it will be in the 4-5 MPG range.
The Cummins SCR catalyst will cost you that much, we've replaced those on two out of the three 2010 emission Cummins we own, never had a turbo go bad on them.
Your drivers must drive their cars a lot differant than some of mine do  |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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busman2014
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 12:43:11 PM
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| We all know a Gas engine wont fit every school district and be the best solution for everyone. But for your larger metro areas that never go far and on your shorter routes, gas/propane will shine. On your activity buses and longer more rural routes where the bus goes further and faster diesel may still be the way to go. I think this is the way everyone should look at it. I would still take the OEM manufacturer engine over a discontinued redesigned engine any day. Just my .02cents.!! |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 1:22:32 PM
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We recently got info on the 8.8 at a conference. It seems nice and alot of techs were interested in it. We unfortunately did not get our hands on it but had an I/C engineer to tell us about it. He was heavily selling the lack of after treatment. I think it would work great in a short spec. needs bus, but am nervous to put it in a 77 pass or transit. I just dont see it having the power to haul the football team through the hills like a diesel.
As for after treatment i think the new one piece cummins can will solve alot of issues. Of course only time will tell. |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 06/28/2017 : 6:13:55 PM
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Wow...this thread should be selling stock!
As for the price, I'm totally flabbergasted that the price difference is ONLY $5,000? I don't see how it can't be bigger than that. Since diesel engine replacements run upwards of $25,000-$30,000 these days, I can't see how the price difference is so small on a newer bus. Perhaps part of the issue is that the V10s and V8s are being made in much smaller quantities than the Cummins. They might cost more to produce since they aren't being pumped out like the diesels (yet). I imagine there is a somewhat cheaper cost per unit with Cummins. I don't mean literally cheaper, but relative to average prices within an particular engine category. It's also that possible that Cummins gives price breaks on their engines in new vehicles to compete with the gas and propane engines.
Busman and Bryan make very good points. A gasoline or propane engine is not the solution for everybody. It will just depend on all the circumstances for each school system. For some, I think they will work out well.
"I would still take the OEM manufacturer engine over a discontinued redesigned engine any day."
I don't think that is a fair statement busman. I will certainly agree that we need to wait and see. I'm not gonna be the guinea pig to try them out, but I'm definitely going to pay attention and ask others how they do. The fuel pump problem doesn't sound very good, but I'm sure that will get worked out over time. Either way, I don't think you can write this engine off just yet, especially since IC didn't make it, hehe. It will be very interesting to see if they are up to snuff. If not, it could really be another disaster for IC (and whoever is using the engine).
bfaulkner-I bet it would haul through the hills just as good as the Cummins does. That is, IF the torque and hp specs posted earlier are accurate. I mean, numbers shouldn't lie. If the torque specs didn't look so good, I'd be in the same boat with you. Usually you get high hp with gassers, but no low end. The engine appears to have some low end. However, the only way to know for sure would be to drive it.
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 06/29/2017 : 04:48:56 AM
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Torque and HP are virtually identical on the Cummins and PSI 8.8.
My salesman said pricing is not available until August and production will start in January 2018.
quote:
Originally posted by bfaulkner
We recently got info on the 8.8 at a conference. It seems nice and alot of techs were interested in it. We unfortunately did not get our hands on it but had an I/C engineer to tell us about it. He was heavily selling the lack of after treatment. I think it would work great in a short spec. needs bus, but am nervous to put it in a 77 pass or transit. I just dont see it having the power to haul the football team through the hills like a diesel.
As for after treatment i think the new one piece cummins can will solve alot of issues. Of course only time will tell.
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busman2014
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2017 : 05:40:53 AM
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| Internaional 9.0 GM quit making the 8.8 liter engine some time ago. GM is not supporting this engine. PPI/PSI whoever it is, is making this engine now. Go look and see what they said about the engine when designing it for propane. They basically said they weren't sure if the engine would make it or not being used for on highway use. The warranty from my understanding is not thru IC, you will have to go thru a 3rd party warranty for the engine. Yes I wish the V10 had a little more torque, it does down shift and search for gears in steep hills. But Ford has a factory that only builds the V10 engine. If you can convince your local Ford Dealer to work on it, they love to use the excuse we don't have a lift to work on it, LOL, they should be able to do any warranty work. I wonder if the ford dealers realize how many bus shops do not have lifts?? LOL anyway. just my .02 |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 06/30/2017 : 6:28:20 PM
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I'll agree that the Ford has been around and proven. It also would have a better support network. I can't argue either of those. Like I said, it's going to be one of those things where some people will try it and we can see what they say. My guess is that things will go poorly in the beginning. That's almost always the case with a brand new product. Too many bugs and complications to work out. Also, they will have to figure out how to handle warranties and service. I imagine (outside of warranty) that you will be able to take your bus to the IC dealer to be worked on, but I'm not sure how this will actually work.
If they are loose about who the 3rd party warranty person is, it might give you more choice in where you go. If it's some specific shop that is 200 miles away, could be a real big pain.
I guess we can wait and see how the engine performs and how well IC/PSI does with the service end of things. |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 04:27:09 AM
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| That's BS, a bus manufacturer should warranty any engine they choose to go with in their build. You should'nt have to go through third party anything for warranty. That is total crap if that turns out to be the case with this PSI engine. If IC puts it in there whether it's a Ford V10, PSI, a Chinese engine whatever they should do the warranty work. |
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busman2014
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 06:24:56 AM
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I am not certain how the whole 3rd party warranty thing will work, especially now that PSI has purchased PPI, then engine that Thomas is using for propane. Not sure how that whole thing will play out.
JOEHEB1- I think IC probably doesn't want to warranty this engine. That's one less thing they have to fool with. They can sell the bus, then they don't have to do warranty work on the engine, less headache for them. Guess everyone will have to wait and see how it plays out. They haven't got their CARB certification for this engine yet, so it could be a ways off before we really see anyway. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 07:01:39 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1
That's BS, a bus manufacturer should warranty any engine they choose to go with in their build. You should'nt have to go through third party anything for warranty. That is total crap if that turns out to be the case with this PSI engine. If IC puts it in there whether it's a Ford V10, PSI, a Chinese engine whatever they should do the warranty work.
Interesting comments here from everyone! Couple things; Joe, you must be pretty new to the industry. Used to every bus manufacturer was this way. You went to allison for their warranty, Chevy for theirs, Cat for theirs and BB/ Thomas/ Ward/ Carpenter for theirs. It's just the way it was. My favorite story was with a transmission problem I had that involved Allison, Cat and Chevy. They kept sending me back to the other place. Finally figured out that it was a Chevy problem.
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Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 07:05:36 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by busman2014
We all know a Gas engine wont fit every school district and be the best solution for everyone. But for your larger metro areas that never go far and on your shorter routes, gas/propane will shine. On your activity buses and longer more rural routes where the bus goes further and faster diesel may still be the way to go. I think this is the way everyone should look at it. I would still take the OEM manufacturer engine over a discontinued redesigned engine any day. Just my .02cents.!!
I am a rural district. I have a driver who runs a propane 140 miles a day. I also run them on trips that are in the 250 mile or so range. No problems. The key is the large tank that only BB offers. Not sure why the others don't when I think there is just one tank manufacturer anyway. |
Bryan |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 09:12:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1
That's BS, a bus manufacturer should warranty any engine they choose to go with in their build. You should'nt have to go through third party anything for warranty. That is total crap if that turns out to be the case with this PSI engine. If IC puts it in there whether it's a Ford V10, PSI, a Chinese engine whatever they should do the warranty work.
Interesting comments here from everyone! Couple things; Joe, you must be pretty new to the industry. Used to every bus manufacturer was this way. You went to allison for their warranty, Chevy for theirs, Cat for theirs and BB/ Thomas/ Ward/ Carpenter for theirs. It's just the way it was. My favorite story was with a transmission problem I had that involved Allison, Cat and Chevy. They kept sending me back to the other place. Finally figured out that it was a Chevy problem.
When I started working on school buses 14 years ago it was that way like you said. We never had any problems with warranty. Most of our buses were out of warranty when I started here, but the very few that were still under warranty hardly had any real issues like we have now. We don't send anything out unless it's a really expensive fix under warranty. We fix most minor warranty issues ourselves, either that or wait 3 weeks for a minor warranty repair. Now that manufacters (IC) are using other engines other than their own, It would be nice if they would warranty the bus bumper to bumper without them sending you to someone else for warranty. |
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flint1
Senior Member
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 07/03/2017 : 4:19:09 PM
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| My dealer here was under the impression that warranty would be at their shop. I'll have to double check. |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 07/04/2017 : 04:09:15 AM
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| Our local International dealer has mechanics who have done the training to do warranty on some Cummins and some of their branches are also Allison certified to do warranty. So if there is enough demand I imagine your local dealers are the same? |
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flint1
Senior Member
Canada
74 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2017 : 12:18:17 PM
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| Ic bus had a demo today at the local racetrack. Drove the new gas 8.8L. I liked it. Lots of power. Supposedly has been avg 8mpg as it tours around. Warranty will be done in house at the international dealer. Estimate it will cost 3-5k cheaper then a diesel. Engine happiest between 1200-2000rpm. Very much like a isb or a dt. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 05:18:06 AM
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| 8 mpg? I'd have to see that to believe it. Old rule of thumb was gasoline about 10% better than propane on mpg. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 06:02:02 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by torque
Our local International dealer has mechanics who have done the training to do warranty on some Cummins and some of their branches are also Allison certified to do warranty. So if there is enough demand I imagine your local dealers are the same?
Rep came in the other day and said we have 2 dealerships near by that can do bumper to bumper warranty on these IC with the PSI. I'm seriously considering going with gas now. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 06:34:33 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1
quote:
Originally posted by torque
Our local International dealer has mechanics who have done the training to do warranty on some Cummins and some of their branches are also Allison certified to do warranty. So if there is enough demand I imagine your local dealers are the same?
Rep came in the other day and said we have 2 dealerships near by that can do bumper to bumper warranty on these IC with the PSI. I'm seriously considering going with gas now.
Let's do some math. Here's the prices in my area Gasoline- 2.25, propane- 1.30 and diesel- 2.45. Gasoline at 7mpg (my estimation) will be 32 cents per mile, propane at 5 mpg (on route) will be 26 cents per mile and diesel at 8 mpg (that's what I get with the ones I have) will be 30 cents per mile. Keep in mind that this is the closest the prices have been since I bought a propane bus over 5 years ago. Historically, the diesels have been costing me over 50 cents per mile and the propane can be as low as 19 cents per mile. And that's if they no longer have the federal incentive. That has been 35 cents per gallon (not at this time) so that would knock another 7 cents per mile off of the propane. You all know that gasoline goes up when diesel does (propane normally doesn't follow suite). So, you can calculate from there. Beyond the numbers, gasoline is the least safe of the three fuels. The flammability window is much larger and the chance for a ruptured tank and subsequent mist with explosion is as real as it was back in the late 80s and early 90s. Storage is also least problematic with propane. |
Bryan |
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black
Active Member
USA
49 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 06:35:35 AM
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| Has anyone heard when IC will actually deliver one? I heard that a large district in Texas bought a bunch and was told February at the time of the bid and now are being told August 2018 at the earliest. Evidently they are having trouble getting the 8.8L PSI engine EPA certified. |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 08:00:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1
quote:
Originally posted by torque
Our local International dealer has mechanics who have done the training to do warranty on some Cummins and some of their branches are also Allison certified to do warranty. So if there is enough demand I imagine your local dealers are the same?
Rep came in the other day and said we have 2 dealerships near by that can do bumper to bumper warranty on these IC with the PSI. I'm seriously considering going with gas now.
Let's do some math. Here's the prices in my area Gasoline- 2.25, propane- 1.30 and diesel- 2.45. Gasoline at 7mpg (my estimation) will be 32 cents per mile, propane at 5 mpg (on route) will be 26 cents per mile and diesel at 8 mpg (that's what I get with the ones I have) will be 30 cents per mile. Keep in mind that this is the closest the prices have been since I bought a propane bus over 5 years ago. Historically, the diesels have been costing me over 50 cents per mile and the propane can be as low as 19 cents per mile. And that's if they no longer have the federal incentive. That has been 35 cents per gallon (not at this time) so that would knock another 7 cents per mile off of the propane. You all know that gasoline goes up when diesel does (propane normally doesn't follow suite). So, you can calculate from there. Beyond the numbers, gasoline is the least safe of the three fuels. The flammability window is much larger and the chance for a ruptured tank and subsequent mist with explosion is as real as it was back in the late 80s and early 90s. Storage is also least problematic with propane.
You have limtited use with propane here in the big city. As far as prices going up and down, we contract a set price for the year so if the price goes up or down our price stays the same regardless what the market does. Cost to operate far out ways what a diesel cost to operate, especially with down time and cost for parts for a diesel. As far as rupturing a gas tank, I think it's near impossible to rupture or puncture the fuel tank in the event of a roll over or an accident as it's pretty well caged up in between the frame. The gassers are looking pretty promising to us. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 08:32:13 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1
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Originally posted by bwest
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Originally posted by JoeHEB1
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Originally posted by torque
Our local International dealer has mechanics who have done the training to do warranty on some Cummins and some of their branches are also Allison certified to do warranty. So if there is enough demand I imagine your local dealers are the same?
Rep came in the other day and said we have 2 dealerships near by that can do bumper to bumper warranty on these IC with the PSI. I'm seriously considering going with gas now.
Let's do some math. Here's the prices in my area Gasoline- 2.25, propane- 1.30 and diesel- 2.45. Gasoline at 7mpg (my estimation) will be 32 cents per mile, propane at 5 mpg (on route) will be 26 cents per mile and diesel at 8 mpg (that's what I get with the ones I have) will be 30 cents per mile. Keep in mind that this is the closest the prices have been since I bought a propane bus over 5 years ago. Historically, the diesels have been costing me over 50 cents per mile and the propane can be as low as 19 cents per mile. And that's if they no longer have the federal incentive. That has been 35 cents per gallon (not at this time) so that would knock another 7 cents per mile off of the propane. You all know that gasoline goes up when diesel does (propane normally doesn't follow suite). So, you can calculate from there. Beyond the numbers, gasoline is the least safe of the three fuels. The flammability window is much larger and the chance for a ruptured tank and subsequent mist with explosion is as real as it was back in the late 80s and early 90s. Storage is also least problematic with propane.
You have limtited use with propane here in the big city. As far as prices going up and down, we contract a set price for the year so if the price goes up or down our price stays the same regardless what the market does. Cost to operate far out ways what a diesel cost to operate, especially with down time and cost for parts for a diesel. As far as rupturing a gas tank, I think it's near impossible to rupture or puncture the fuel tank in the event of a roll over or an accident as it's pretty well caged up in between the frame. The gassers are looking pretty promising to us.
That's exactly my argument in favor of propane. It is a commodity just like any fuel and can be bought ahead or "booked" at a set price. That's how we avoided 5 bucks a gallon here about 4 years ago. I had questions like "how do you like propane now?" I always said "just fine, how do you like heating with propane?" It's just easy for me to make this commitment. Many districts in my area are jumping on board the propane train. lol |
Bryan |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 10/25/2017 : 4:08:47 PM
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Ic bus had a demo today at the local racetrack. Drove the new gas 8.8L. I liked it. Lots of power. Supposedly has been avg 8mpg as it tours around. Warranty will be done in house at the international dealer. Estimate it will cost 3-5k cheaper then a diesel. Engine happiest between 1200-2000rpm. Very much like a isb or a dt.
You have to be careful with this. Until it is certified with emissions through CARB and/or EPA you have no idea if what you are test driving is actually what will hit the street. They can tune to performance for a demo because that bus can't be sold.
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Has anyone heard when IC will actually deliver one? I heard that a large district in Texas bought a bunch and was told February at the time of the bid and now are being told August 2018 at the earliest. Evidently they are having trouble getting the 8.8L PSI engine EPA certified.
There is nothing shown as approved on the CARB site that I can see. They won't deliver before you see that cert. |
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PSI 8.8L V8
