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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  06:55:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are dealing with seat belt legislation in Illinois again. I fear it will pass this time. I am of the opinion that this is a knee jerk reaction by our legislature. There hasn't been a study or anything on this. With this post, I am wondering if anyone knows of studies on stability control and laminated student windows. What scenarios does stability control work and not work? Can a laminated window keep students inside the bus? We know tempered cannot. I am of the opinion that if we can keep the bus on it's wheels and the students inside the bus, then we will achieve more than seat belts can. I understand that New York has 10% compliance on their school bus seat belts. If that is true, wouldn't the money, that we would spend on seat belts, be better spent on passive things such as that mentioned above?

Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  08:28:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I think the ship has sailed on the compartmentalization versus seat-belt debate, its no longer a question of if but rather when.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  08:39:51 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Back in the news hear, too:

http://www.newschannel5.com/news/local-news/chattanooga-parents-advocate-for-seat-belts-on-school-buses?autoplay=true

I agree, knee jerk, emotional reaction. The TN legislation will require any school bus bought from 2018 on to have seat belts. No mention of retro-fitting current buses. Our Thomas dealer won't even talk to anyone about retro-fitting older buses. Too much liability I'd say.
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  09:45:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It started here in CA in 2006 I think. No requirement to retrofit, just model year buses produced after that date. Hopefully they dont add a retrofit provision for you guys. What a pain that would be.
Our knee jerk reactionaries in our state legislature have passed a bill to require those child check alarm systems that it seems most everybody else has.

-Ken-
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  10:52:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You guys are telling me that "it's going to happen" and it's already here". But I'm looking for "I think our money can be spent better for X, Y, & Z". For those that have it, I'm wanting to know what your experience is. For those that don't, I want to know why your state doesn't have them.

Secondly, and really my primary interest, is what do you know about stability control and laminate windows? Is anyone thinking about laminate windows?

Bryan
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  11:03:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
FastBack you are correct. Compartmentalization only works in front or rear straight in back. It does not work and rollover, or side impact. We just had a left front side impact crash a few weeks ago, (Pictures on Facebook school bus mechanics page) and the kids in the first 5 or 6 rows on the right side of the bus flew to the left side of the bus and on the floor. 4 were injured. I wish I could show the video but I cannot. The bus was moving less the 10 mph, it had just stopped at a stop sign. The truck, a Tundra towing a stump grinder ran the stop sign and hit the bus at about 45 mph.

Stability control and laminated windows would have no effect in this kind of crash.

Hang on and get ready, like it or not, they are coming. Just look at the news reports about the daily crashing involving school buses.

US Army retired CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  12:18:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, how do they work if the kids don't wear them?

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  12:44:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Who's going to make sure they wear them?

AND, who's libel if the kids DON'T wear them? The driver? The school system?

Way too many variables and unanswered questions. Typical legislation, they don't know HOW it's going to happen, just as long as THEY said MAKE it happen.....

Edited by - BigPapa on 03/23/2017 12:47:03 PM
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  12:48:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

You guys are telling me that "it's going to happen" and it's already here". But I'm looking for "I think our money can be spent better for X, Y, & Z". For those that have it, I'm wanting to know what your experience is. For those that don't, I want to know why your state doesn't have them.

Secondly, and really my primary interest, is what do you know about stability control and laminate windows? Is anyone thinking about laminate windows?



it IS going to happen and it IS already here.
couldnt help myself...

But I agree with you, I do think the money could be better spent elsewhere. My oldest belts are in an 09 and they look brand new. Most of the time the kids just stuff the buckles under the seat. Drivers are required to inform the kids that they are required to wear them and that is as far as the drivers responsibility goes. Ultimately its up to the kids to put em on. All of mine are IMMI by the way but ive seen the Syntec seats and think that they are better if/when youre forced to do this.

-Ken-
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member

538 Posts

Posted - 03/23/2017 :  1:27:16 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you are looking for studies done, contacting Bendix may be an option. I just went to a class the other day and they covered some info on stability systems, traction control and ABS. They may be able to give you some good info. Basically what I took away from it is that a lot of times, drivers don't even realize that their stability systems are helping to control them. The other thing I took away from it, is that once the driver breaks the threshhold, there may be no coming back from that.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  03:59:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Seatbelts: The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what we think, we are the minority on the subject. Lawmakers are going to pass this to quiet down the people who are aren't educated in just how safe a school bus is...that's the majority and the majority keeps the clowns in office.

Strategy change: It might be time to start pushing for language in the bills rather than against the bills entirely. Needs to be explicitly stated if the kids are required to buckle up or not and also that the driver/aide/contractor/school system/etc are not liable if they do or don't buckle up.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  05:14:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Seatbelts: The bottom line is that it doesn't matter what we think, we are the minority on the subject. Lawmakers are going to pass this to quiet down the people who are aren't educated in just how safe a school bus is...that's the majority and the majority keeps the clowns in office.

Strategy change: It might be time to start pushing for language in the bills rather than against the bills entirely. Needs to be explicitly stated if the kids are required to buckle up or not and also that the driver/aide/contractor/school system/etc are not liable if they do or don't buckle up.



Good thoughts! I think maybe both trying to prevent the law and changing language, might be a good strategy.

Bryan
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  07:44:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is where we are at in Canada, today.
Basically sounds like they just want to make sure if they are installed, they are installed correctly in the second story. 1st story says they want them installed but also warn lap belts only can increase injury.

LOL, so I guess we don't know what we are doing yet or poor reporters.

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/03/17/transport-canada-looking-at-making-seatbelts-mandatory-on-school-buses.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/transport-canada-looks-to-set-up-guidelines-for-seat-belts-on-school-buses-1.3330042
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dferrell
Senior Member

102 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  11:30:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that it's only a matter of time before every state will have seat belts. I have read that there had been multiple studies done by different groups - NHTSA, CHP, etc. about the need for seat belts in school buses and the result was always that school buses are already so safe that they didn't see the need for them. In the kinds of bus accidents where kids were killed (which is already extremely rare), seat belts most likely would not have helped. (Driving off a cliff, hit by train, etc.) In some ways, they can be more hazardous - especially with little kids who have trouble getting them on and off.
But here in California, you can have all the studies you want and all the facts and it doesn't really matter because the law makers don't care about that stuff. We have moms that figure that since their car is safer with seat belts then school buses need seat belts. They got the law makers to pass the law. I agree that I think it would be money better spent elsewhere. It is a huge cost for something that is a questionable necessity.
With this being said, we have had them in all new buses for around 10 years and they are obviously a pain in some ways, but actually work well in others. Obviously the maintenance / repair side is a pain. They are expensive and take longer to repair seats. On the other hand, they have actually made it easier to control the kids while driving. The seats with belts are taller so the smaller kids can't see over the backs. They are less prone to interaction with other seats in front or behind them. If you see them standing up, you know they don't have their seat belt on. Etc. We have some buses with seat belts and some without and I think that driving the buses with seat belts makes it easier to control the kids.
Someone mentioned about driver liability. Obviously not every kid is going to keep them on and there is no possible way for the driver to make sure they are buckled up at all times. Here in California the law is written that the students are required to wear them but the driver is not liable if they don't.
VC Section 27316(c):
"No person, school district, or organization with respect to a school bus equipped with passenger restraint systems pursuant to this section, may be charged for a violation of this code or any regulation adopted thereunder requiring a passenger to use a passenger restraint system, if a passenger on the school bus fails to use or improperly uses the passenger restraint system
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  11:50:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Track-Coach-Killed-18-Students-in-East-Texas-Bus-Crash-417008933.html

Just happened yesterday.

US Army retired CMBT
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  12:32:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Some good points dferrell. Too often governments give in just to shut people up that know nothing about a situation, in this case seat belts. Knowing full well it is not likely to make a difference.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  12:51:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the thoughts, dferrell. On the Texas crash, stay tuned. I believe the coach that was killed was in a car behind the bus. My super showed me a video that said that. I think it was WDFW.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/24/2017 :  12:53:26 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sorry, KFDW, you can tell I live east of the Mississippi. Here's the story.
http://www.fox4news.com/news/243674495-story

Keep those folks in your prayers! My heart sunk when I heard this. I could just as easily been my wife in a vehicle following a bus here, she's a teacher.

When cases like this arise, it is very easy to see why people want to do more to protect their children riding a bus. Facts prove that the school bus is as safe as it has ever been and I believe studies need to be done to determine if hard earned tax money is best spent on belts and not something else.

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2017 :  06:24:00 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This accident in TX should help point out that seat belts aren't needed. The bus was hit, then rolled, and ALL the passengers on the school bus are alive with only four sustaining serious injury. From what I can find all are in stable condition. The two that were killed were the truck driver and the coach that was in a car that the truck hit AFTER hitting the bus.

Edited by - BigPapa on 03/25/2017 06:30:16 AM
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dferrell
Senior Member

102 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2017 :  6:25:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah...I totally get the emotions behind it. I have 2 kids and of course would want them in the safest vehicle possible. I just also know that you have to draw the line somewhere. You can't regulate the risk or danger out of everything in life. There is a human element involved. When you step out of the door in the morning and get in your car and head to work, you are taking a far higher risk than kids are riding the school bus. Maybe the general public needs to be better informed on the facts about how safe buses really are. In reality, parents should be begging for their kids to ride based on how much safer they are than their own vehicle.
It's like the new law they passed here in California requiring the child check systems. It's unfortunate but 1 child died because 1 driver didn't do their job. There was no equipment malfunction. There was already a rule in place to prevent this exact thing. The driver didn't follow the rule and the result was catastrophic. Now, every bus in the entire state has to install a child check device as a result of this - costing the state a ton of money. Even when these new devices are installed, there will still be a human element involved. I've talked to a couple of transportation supervisors that have been using these devices for a few years now and both of them have had drivers that have figured out how to bypass the system so they don't have to walk to the back every time. The point is that no matter how many laws and regulations you have, you can't regulate danger out of life. Human beings make bad choices and make mistakes. You have to draw the line somewhere. Obviously we will never be able to prevent every single fatality caused by a school bus accident. School buses are so safe and fatalities are so low, it definitely seems like all this money could be spent somewhere else and accomplish much more.
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dferrell
Senior Member

102 Posts

Posted - 03/25/2017 :  6:46:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here is an interesting article with statistics on school bus accidents: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811890

"From 2003 to 2012, 174 school-age children died in school-transportation related crashes, 55 were occupants of school transportation vehicles and 119 were pedestrians, 55 students died that were occupants of a school bus."
So at 55 deaths over 9 years, school bus occupants have an average of 6 deaths a year, nationwide. That is absolutely amazing. Compare that with automobiles:
"Since 2003 there were 348,253 fatal motor vehicle traffic crashes. Of those, 1,222 (0.35%) were classified as school-transportation-related." (This article is from 2014.)
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2017 :  07:56:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's a thread in general interest about laminate vs. tempered glass. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=23117

Bryan
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2017 :  08:33:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Posted - 03/25/2017 : 6:46:02 PM Show Profile Visit dferrell's Homepage Reply with Quote
Here is an interesting article with statistics on school bus accidents: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/811890

"From 2003 to 2012, 174 school-age children died in school-transportation related crashes, 55 were occupants of school transportation vehicles and 119 were pedestrians, 55 students died that were occupants of a school bus."
So at 55 deaths over 9 years, school bus occupants have an average of 6 deaths a year, nationwide. That is absolutely amazing. Compare that with automobiles:
"Since 2003 there were 348,253 fatal motor vehicle traffic crashes. Of those, 1,222 (0.35%) were classified as school-transportation-related." (This article is from 2014.)


The report however does not mention injuries, which are probably a lot higher the fatalities. I know with the 2 accidents in the system I work for, there were 9 injuries and I'm sure there wouldn't have been that many had there been 3 point belts on the buses and the students wearing them.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2017 :  10:54:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/article/721632/napt-news-views-nhtsa-proposes-project-to-gather-seat-belt-info

US Army retired CMBT
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dferrell
Senior Member

102 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2017 :  3:34:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
NHTSA has obviously changed their stance on seat belts.
https://one.nhtsa.gov/Vehicle-Safety/Seat-Belts/Seat-Belts-on-School-Buses-%E2%80%93%E2%80%93-May-2006
"The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and the National Academy of Sciences (NAS) have come to similar conclusions. The NTSB concluded in a 1987 study of school bus crashes that most fatalities and injuries occurred because the occupant seating positions were in direct line with the crash forces.[2 NTSB stated that seat belts would not have prevented most of the serious injuries and fatalities from occurring in school bus crashes. In 1989, the NAS completed a study of ways to improve school bus safety and concluded that the overall potential benefits of requiring seat belts on large school buses were insufficient to justify a Federal mandate for installation.[3] NAS also stated that the funds used to purchase and maintain seat belts might be better spent on other school bus safety programs and devices that could save more lives and reduce more injuries."

I don't think the overall nature of school bus accidents has changed much since 1987. My personal opinion is that NHTSA has changed their stance because it is the publicly popular one. It is much easier to go with the flow than against it.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2017 :  04:17:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dferrell

I don't think the overall nature of school bus accidents has changed much since 1987.



I'd tend to disagree about the nature being different now than in 1987. A 1987 report would have crashes for several years prior and a lot of those would have been pre-standard buses that were allowed to have joints tear apart and seats rip out of the floor...fun stuff like that. If anything, today's crashes should look better on paper.

NTSB touted how great post-standard buses are when they came up with reports in the 80s and 90s.

I agree with you, it's just a matter of going with the flow. Government funded, gotta tell we the people what we want to hear to keep that money rolling in.
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  05:38:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well, it cleared the Transportation Committee yesterday. Just keeping you posted:

http://www.newschannel5.com/news/school-bus-seat-belt-bill-clears-key-hurdle?autoplay=true
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  06:09:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lap or 3-point?
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  06:59:30 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No word on what type yet. They did decide NOT to try to retrofit buses but instead, if this passes, will mandate beginning in 2018 that all new buses must have seatbelts.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  07:31:12 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I am sure what ever comes of the Seat belt in school bus debate... we won't have much say in it... I totally agree with what dferrell said above.. "You can't regulate the risk or danger out of everything in life." I have to admit that statement is a lot more PC than what my Grandpa use to say...!

But my mind wonders what the current statistics look like concerning bus crash related causalities vs bus fire related causalities? Then what those numbers might look like when your trying to get multiple kids (be it 5 or 65) with a wide range of ages, off a bus in a hurry and they are belted in! I know we all practice bus evacuations regularly... but when you only have a couple of minutes and it isn't a drill, somebody is bound to panic and not be able to get the belt off... I wonder if they will think this requirement through enough to require multiple belt cutters too?

I look quickly for data...newest I could find on National Fire prevention assoc was issued in 2006? does anyone know if there is more current stats?
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  07:50:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is completely insane. The state is working to mandate belts but won't say which kind? How do you even respond to that?
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  09:13:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
No matter which type, it'll still be a nightmare unbuckling all the kids on a roll over situation. My guess would be lap belt type to keep the cost down.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  09:28:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you have 15 bus routes and one new bus with seat-belts, which route do you put the seat-belted bus on? The one transporting the lawyer's kids?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 04/05/2017 09:29:16 AM
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  11:31:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL. We get what ever buses are left over, a few years ago we received about 3 with seat belts, told to take them out. Too much to decide what route gets them and too much troubles dealing with parents, why does.....
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2017 :  12:24:36 PM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

If you have 15 bus routes and one new bus with seat-belts, which route do you put the seat-belted bus on? The one transporting the lawyer's kids?



Multiply those numbers by 90. That's where we're at.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2017 :  11:19:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/721825/retrofit-requirement-dropped-from-tennessee-school-bus-seat-belt-bill

US Army retired CMBT
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