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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2017 :  11:57:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, in addition to Blue Bird here's a Lion electric bus. They call it an eLion. Their web site says 75 mile range 6-8 hours to recharge and investment payback in 6 years. I'd like for an engineer to tell me why they can't make a "battery pack" that can be changed with a fork truck. That way you can have a set at the shop/ yard on charge that can be swapped out. That way you can do your 75 in the morning then turn around and do it again in the afternoon. If it takes 6 hours to recharge, what do you do on early out days? lol

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/02/17/school-buses-get-electric-facelift.html

bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2017 :  12:32:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, 5 hours with a regular charger or 1 hour with a "super charger". So, a guy would have to have the super charger for every unit in my opinion. Wonder if the super reduces the life of the batteries? Speaking of that, wonder what the life of a battery. One of our tech guys here has an old Prius and when his brother owned it he replaced individual cells. Said they only cost like 15 bucks. Not sure on that but that sounds better than what I've been told. lol

Bryan
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
459 Posts

Posted - 02/17/2017 :  8:04:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As far as charging...keep this in mind. Unless you are maxing out the range and running the batteries to their minimum operating voltage ("empty" if you will), it will not require the full amount of time to charge them. If you only drove 20 or 30 miles, the bus would probably charge in 3 hours. That is quick enough for most operations, I'd imagine. I would certainly avoid the 1 hour charge deal...that would most certainly shorten the life of the batteries. More current=more heat.

6 years is an awful long payoff, and that is by THEIR calculations. I'm can only imagine that they are somewhat optimistic in how they calculate savings. You must think not only about battery replacement. Electricity is not free. Are drivers going to have to come by the bus lot twice a day? If a driver normally parks the bus at his/her house and lives on the opposite end of the county, this will not save anything in the long run. Would a charging station (on separate electric meter) be installed at all the drivers' houses? I think there are many complications to fully electric vehicles.

Another good thought...batteries are full of chemicals that are note environmentally friendly. What happens to all these used up batteries?

Electricity is environmentally friendly, right? Depends on whether the electricity is generated by wind, water, solar, coal, nuclear, etc. Coal is just another form of dirty fossil fuels, so you are really just exchanging diesel for coal in those cases.

I think the alternative fuel vehicle initiatives are great and a step in the right direction. I just don't think the practicality of fully electrical vehicles has been proven, at least just yet. Perhaps they work well in small cars that make short trips, but I'm not sure about large trucks and buses.

I think one major advantage would be the elimination of a great amount of maintenance. No oil, fuel filters, coolant changes, etc. I'm sure the electric motors and batteries require their own types of maintenance, but I'm willing to bet the maintenance is less in total when you compare them to a combustion engine and hydraulic automatic transmission.

Just my thoughts on the situation. I'd wait to let other people try it out before I'd be willing to try one.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  4:56:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0

As far as charging...keep this in mind. Unless you are maxing out the range and running the batteries to their minimum operating voltage ("empty" if you will), it will not require the full amount of time to charge them. If you only drove 20 or 30 miles, the bus would probably charge in 3 hours. That is quick enough for most operations, I'd imagine. I would certainly avoid the 1 hour charge deal...that would most certainly shorten the life of the batteries. More current=more heat.

6 years is an awful long payoff, and that is by THEIR calculations. I'm can only imagine that they are somewhat optimistic in how they calculate savings. You must think not only about battery replacement. Electricity is not free. Are drivers going to have to come by the bus lot twice a day? If a driver normally parks the bus at his/her house and lives on the opposite end of the county, this will not save anything in the long run. Would a charging station (on separate electric meter) be installed at all the drivers' houses? I think there are many complications to fully electric vehicles.

Another good thought...batteries are full of chemicals that are note environmentally friendly. What happens to all these used up batteries?

Electricity is environmentally friendly, right? Depends on whether the electricity is generated by wind, water, solar, coal, nuclear, etc. Coal is just another form of dirty fossil fuels, so you are really just exchanging diesel for coal in those cases.

I think the alternative fuel vehicle initiatives are great and a step in the right direction. I just don't think the practicality of fully electrical vehicles has been proven, at least just yet. Perhaps they work well in small cars that make short trips, but I'm not sure about large trucks and buses.

I think one major advantage would be the elimination of a great amount of maintenance. No oil, fuel filters, coolant changes, etc. I'm sure the electric motors and batteries require their own types of maintenance, but I'm willing to bet the maintenance is less in total when you compare them to a combustion engine and hydraulic automatic transmission.

Just my thoughts on the situation. I'd wait to let other people try it out before I'd be willing to try one.



I agree. I am not totally convinced that getting completely away from "fossil" fuels will solve the problems they are wanting to assign to it. That's not to say that smog isn't a real thing or that cities need to clean things up. Let's just say I have several reservations about what is the accepted evils we face today. Also, I know a thing or two about crude oil and I'm not sure it is from prehistoric plankton. That being said, I also question the validity of "man made climate change". Is the climate changing? Of course, it has for at least the past few millennia and will continue to do so (with or without man's input on the matter). I think we need to take a real hard look at the things we accept as the "norm". I'm not saying it is all wrong. What I am saying is that the media will contort things to fit their worldview. Case in point, is the latest bus crash that happened close to me. I have reliable knowledge about the crash and the national media is distorting the facts to push for seatbelts. How many other things are they distorting? OK, stepping down from the soapbox.

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  7:19:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0

As far as charging...keep this in mind. Unless you are maxing out the range and running the batteries to their minimum operating voltage ("empty" if you will), it will not require the full amount of time to charge them. If you only drove 20 or 30 miles, the bus would probably charge in 3 hours. That is quick enough for most operations, I'd imagine. I would certainly avoid the 1 hour charge deal...that would most certainly shorten the life of the batteries. More current=more heat.

6 years is an awful long payoff, and that is by THEIR calculations. I'm can only imagine that they are somewhat optimistic in how they calculate savings. You must think not only about battery replacement. Electricity is not free. Are drivers going to have to come by the bus lot twice a day? If a driver normally parks the bus at his/her house and lives on the opposite end of the county, this will not save anything in the long run. Would a charging station (on separate electric meter) be installed at all the drivers' houses? I think there are many complications to fully electric vehicles.

Another good thought...batteries are full of chemicals that are note environmentally friendly. What happens to all these used up batteries?

Electricity is environmentally friendly, right? Depends on whether the electricity is generated by wind, water, solar, coal, nuclear, etc. Coal is just another form of dirty fossil fuels, so you are really just exchanging diesel for coal in those cases.

I think the alternative fuel vehicle initiatives are great and a step in the right direction. I just don't think the practicality of fully electrical vehicles has been proven, at least just yet. Perhaps they work well in small cars that make short trips, but I'm not sure about large trucks and buses.

I think one major advantage would be the elimination of a great amount of maintenance. No oil, fuel filters, coolant changes, etc. I'm sure the electric motors and batteries require their own types of maintenance, but I'm willing to bet the maintenance is less in total when you compare them to a combustion engine and hydraulic automatic transmission.

Just my thoughts on the situation. I'd wait to let other people try it out before I'd be willing to try one.



I agree. I am not totally convinced that getting completely away from "fossil" fuels will solve the problems they are wanting to assign to it. That's not to say that smog isn't a real thing or that cities need to clean things up. Let's just say I have several reservations about what is the accepted evils we face today. Also, I know a thing or two about crude oil and I'm not sure it is from prehistoric plankton. That being said, I also question the validity of "man made climate change". Is the climate changing? Of course, it has for at least the past few millennia and will continue to do so (with or without man's input on the matter). I think we need to take a real hard look at the things we accept as the "norm". I'm not saying it is all wrong. What I am saying is that the media will contort things to fit their worldview. Case in point, is the latest bus crash that happened close to me. I have reliable knowledge about the crash and the national media is distorting the facts to push for seatbelts. How many other things are they distorting? OK, stepping down from the soapbox.



Wow, you must love our new "president".
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
459 Posts

Posted - 02/19/2017 :  7:42:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Second-Let's not start that c@c@ here!

Bryan-I see where you are coming from and I think we are pretty much on the same page. Perhaps my post sounded a little negative or anti-electric vehicle. I didn't really mean it to look that way (a reason I really hate communicating by text), but was just trying to highlight some of the shortcomings of fully electric vehicles and why I wouldn't be the first person to jump on board. I think they are a good initiative and going down the right road. I think they just need some perfecting or a better alternative needs to emerge.

I think we do need to get away from fossil fuels in the future, but it doesn't have to happen tomorrow. I think we need to take time to work on some practical and properly tested fuel sources for future vehicles. Our problem (the human race) is that we wait to institute change until it's really a bit too late. Then we do something hasty in a mad dash to fix a problem that should have been dealt with long before. Then things are a mess.

Global warming IS happening, no one educated can debate that. Why it's happening is, of course, another story. I think some climate change is happening naturally and humans are also responsible for some of it. As to what level/percentage each factor is responsible, you can debate that until the cows come home.

I think diesels are to the point now that they can't be cleaned up much more. They are putting out near zero levels of pm and nitrous oxides. Despite the annoyances of emissions equipment, this really is a good thing. I'm glad that we reached this level. I think there isn't much left to do other than increase fuel efficiency perhaps by increasing urea and decreasing EGR as I've mentioned in another post a while back. Either way,the next step will have to be another fuel type to clean anything up further. I think as the current emissions technology stays around for a while, it will somewhat improve and reduce headaches over time, but they will never go away completely.

Gassers are making a comeback. We will see how that changes over the next few years.

I will make a very brief media comment. The media does frequently distort and twist things. However, just because this is the case does not mean that ALL information you get from them is fake or bad. It's very important that the country maintain a "free press", but they should be bound to report factually correct information. The fake news and made up facts kind of stuff should not have a place.

However, it is part of each person's personal responsibility to be able to separate good news articles from poorly sourced ones. I always ignore any article on my phone that is from the "opinion" section as it's just somebody's opinion. I'm capable of forming my own, thank you very much. I look for articles that have factual information and that seem somewhat creditable. Of course, you can never be sure unless you spend 100 hours researching every single statement, but you learn to pick out good articles from bad articles in general. Ok, that's enough of that...look what you started Bryan!!!!
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2017 :  06:02:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Passive aggressively inserting political and/or religious views into threads will usually garner some sort of reply.

A thought, consider the land mass that is now the United States. Go back a mere 300 years and imagine the landscape.

300 years is a just a blink of time considering the earth is 4.54 billion years old.

Humans have a major impact on this planet, mostly negative. Why anyone would question efforts to improve the conditions that we live in, I'll never understand.

Bryan, where does crude oil "come" from?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2017 :  06:21:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not "trying" to start a big debate here. I do agree that electric vehicles could be a good thing. As I have mentioned before, batteries that change out like a battery operated drill would be a huge step. Will electric be the answer to everything? Of course not. However, an all of the above approach is good. Cars can be electric, pickups/ buses/ vocational can be Propane and/ or CNG. Big trucks can be diesel. I think that could work at some point in the future. However, (and I mean however) the reason this country has prospered so much over the last 200 plus years is that the consumer has chosen the path. That's the biggie here, our all knowing/ all seeing "powers that be" are picking winners and losers. That is not and has never been a good thing in the long run. As for crude oil and global warming..... I'll leave those comments for another forum. I guess the best thing for me to say here (so you guys don't think I'm a total fool) is that I try to look at facts. "Facts" seem to be something that has an agenda attached to them in the past couple dozen years or so. And I don't like dealing with "facts" like that. It shouldn't matter who funds your research, you should put the fact out there even if they hurt the person/ company/ political party funding it. That doesn't seem to happen very often today.

Bryan
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International-9.0
Advanced Member

USA
459 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2017 :  4:42:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bryan-To summarize your comments...money makes the world go around! The emissions equipment really is a good thing, but a real PITA for mechanics and a heavy financial burden for school systems and trucking companies. Humans don't do the right thing naturally...we do what is easiest or cheapest. Somebody (from interest groups to lobbyists to politicians to law, etc.) has to force the issue or it won't happen.

Second-I don't think anybody can truly deny the effects of pollution and other man-made stuff on the earth. I don't think anybody is really in opposition to doing things in a better way, at least in principle. It's more that nobody wants to spend the money to do things a better away. It all goes back to my above comment.

I think electric vehicles become more practical when there is better battery technology or when something other than a battery provides the electricity. When you run out of juice, you're out! You can't just go fill up a gas can and pour some more in.

Edited by - International-9.0 on 02/20/2017 7:17:09 PM
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 02/20/2017 :  7:05:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My daughter is a Chemistry major with a minor in Environmental Science at Denison University. I'd like to run Bryan's crude oil formation theory by her, if he would share, although I feel I can infer his theory from past commentary. Probably has to do with a flood and a chemical called porphyrin.





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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  05:40:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Second.flood, the long and the short of it is we don't know for sure how oil is/ was formed. There was a Russian scientist who had a theory years ago and many think that his theory was at work at "Deep Water Horizon".

International-9.0, I agree with you in principal. However, there are many things we don't know and those in "power" have used this vagueness to go off on a wild goose chase, I believe, spending money on things that should be spent somewhere else. Anyway, that's not the point of this thread. The point is the electric bus and by extension, electric vehicles in general. You are correct when you say battery technology is the issue. I believe the "government" or some other entity (ASME maybe?) could put some standards on batteries and make things better. Maybe these standards could be a uniform size for cells. So, you could put several cells inside a larger battery (this is what the term battery means anyway) and be able to "fill up" (read swap out) when you run out of juice.

That's my two cents. lol

Bryan
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  06:08:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A couple of things I would like to point out. A few years back, it was called global warming, then after a couple of colder than normal winters it changed to climate change. Actually watched one climate expert that tried to explain how global warming was causing the colder winters.
I took in public school that glaciers once reached Central Park in New York. Any one remember that or know someone that does? No, because it was long before man was there creating climate change. Seems to have receded pretty far on its own.
The world has been a lot different than the one we know in this short time, it will continue to change. What seems normal to us, isn't necessarily normal to this planet earth.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  06:25:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Boy this thread has derailed. Let me put my 2 cents in before it gets closed down.

During the ice age there were no machines contributing to global warming. So what happened to all the ice? Times change people, global warming is a hoax. There that's my short 2 cents.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  07:04:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Boy this thread has derailed. Let me put my 2 cents in before it gets closed down.

During the ice age there were no machines contributing to global warming. So what happened to all the ice? Times change people, global warming is a hoax. There that's my short 2 cents.



LOL, derailed, um- well- yeah. I don't think we are going to convince either side to change on the mechanic's forum on SBF. So, as much as I'd love to continue the debate here (I love to debate, by the way) I take it as my job as a moderator to keep us on track (as much as possible-- think herding cats, lol).

So, the long and the short of any new technology is; do we see a future in it? Can we use it in our operation? Can we afford it? To a lesser degree (in our positions anyway) we may think about the environment and such. Let me put it this way, when I thought about propane-- emissions was the last thing on the list when I was trying to sell it to my board. The bottom line was my main point. When electric gets to that point it will take off like propane.

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  07:05:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Boy this thread has derailed.


You sure got that right.

quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

During the ice age there were no machines contributing to global warming. So what happened to all the ice?


Aliens? Personally, I agree with you and I agree with Bryan.



NOW, back to the electric bus discussion.

What do they do for heat on an electric bus? Seems that would sap even more power.

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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  07:30:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Lion I believe uses fuel fired air heaters, not sure what is used for AC ?
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  11:28:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the eLion in the states yet?

And I think the thread followed a very predictable path.

Edited by - second.flood on 02/21/2017 11:30:15 AM
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Admin
Administrator

USA
1662 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  12:47:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, the eLion is available in the U.S. There are also a few eLions running as part of a pilot project among four school districts in Massachusetts.

Here's an article with some more recent information on Lion Buses' eLion: http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/719845/lion-to-add-electric-bus-manufacturing-facility-in-california


quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Is the eLion in the states yet?

And I think the thread followed a very predictable path.

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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  2:14:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Admin

Yes, the eLion is available in the U.S. There are also a few eLions running as part of a pilot project among four school districts in Massachusetts.

Here's an article with some more recent information on Lion Buses' eLion: http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/719845/lion-to-add-electric-bus-manufacturing-facility-in-california


quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Is the eLion in the states yet?

And I think the thread followed a very predictable path.





Thought for sure the boss came to keep us in line. We're tying to keep things civil! Thanks for the info!

Bryan
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member

76 Posts

Posted - 02/21/2017 :  2:20:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe that electric vehicles have a place in solving our energy and pollution problems but it cant play a huge role unless the technology gets better. If there is a large demand for electric do we use more coal or nuclear power? Is there enough water supply for more generators? Our routes average 100 miles per day so it wouldn`t be practical at this point for us. What about that hydrogen thing that was so promising years ago. Also the Bloom Energy that generates electric. That`s my thoughts right or wrong.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  05:24:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bus Tech1

I believe that electric vehicles have a place in solving our energy and pollution problems but it cant play a huge role unless the technology gets better. If there is a large demand for electric do we use more coal or nuclear power? Is there enough water supply for more generators? Our routes average 100 miles per day so it wouldn`t be practical at this point for us. What about that hydrogen thing that was so promising years ago. Also the Bloom Energy that generates electric. That`s my thoughts right or wrong.



Looks like they are still going. I'm not sure how "sustainable" it is. http://www.bloomenergy.com/

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  06:30:49 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bus Tech1

What about that hydrogen thing that was so promising years ago. Also the Bloom Energy that generates electric.


By the time they have that going we'll have Star Trek-like transporter technology and we'll all be out of work.

But, by then we won't have to work.....
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Titan1
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  09:45:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit Titan1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As a person that has worked with electric buses here is what we found to be true and where things are heading. First the power plant emissions vs. tailpipe emissions. The amount of electricity that is used to charge the EV creates less significantly less pollution that a comparable bus it takes off the road.

Their are heating and A/C systems for electric vehicles that are currently on the market, Spheros for one has one such system and to my knowledge works pretty well.

Batteries can be swapped out however lifting and storing 1000 lb. battery packs is not real practical at this time. The battery technology is really where this market is changing. There are battery systems being developed at MIT that are smaller and provide 200-300 mile range with maybe 30 minute full charge time. The technology is changing at a very rapid pace and truly there are not enough engineers to keep pace.

Also one thing that is coming very soon is Vehicle to Grid technology where the power companies will pay to have those buses plugged in.
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  11:09:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the input Titan1.
Can you give an idea on how the heating and AC systems work? Fuel or electric?
Do they need special electric hook ups at recharging station, can they be charged at drivers home?
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Titan1
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  12:41:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit Titan1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by torque

Thanks for the input Titan1.
Can you give an idea on how the heating and AC systems work? Fuel or electric?
Do they need special electric hook ups at recharging station, can they be charged at drivers home?



They are electrically driven and have their own dedicated battery to drive them. One thing that is available is the chance to plug the HVAC system into a standard 110V outlet to keep the bus cool/warm overnight so you don't need to drive the system as hard all at once.

You need a EV charger similar in size to a welding plug.

The EV obviously in its current configurations will not fit every need or route but there are spots where it makes a lot of sense.
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 02/22/2017 :  1:45:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Titan1

As a person that has worked with electric buses here is what we found to be true and where things are heading. First the power plant emissions vs. tailpipe emissions. The amount of electricity that is used to charge the EV creates less significantly less pollution that a comparable bus it takes off the road.

Their are heating and A/C systems for electric vehicles that are currently on the market, Spheros for one has one such system and to my knowledge works pretty well.

Batteries can be swapped out however lifting and storing 1000 lb. battery packs is not real practical at this time. The battery technology is really where this market is changing. There are battery systems being developed at MIT that are smaller and provide 200-300 mile range with maybe 30 minute full charge time. The technology is changing at a very rapid pace and truly there are not enough engineers to keep pace.

Also one thing that is coming very soon is Vehicle to Grid technology where the power companies will pay to have those buses plugged in.



Are the buses you currently work on, or any bus currently being produced, equipped with two way charging circuitry?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2017 :  05:00:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very good information! Thanks for the input, Titan1!!! Looks like battery technology is the key. I hope at some point, you can either pull the batteries & replace (like a cordless tool) or we see that 30 minute charge time you are talking about. Just like I was set against propane because of the past problems they had, I can see accepting the electric technology if they make these advances.

Bryan
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 02/23/2017 :  08:55:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's hard to find information you want, and need for electric buses. The feeling I get is they only want you to get information from a salesman, so they can steer you away from the bad things :) LOL

You would need to install the electrical to charge them. How much $ for that? Roughly per bus ? Yes most of which is a one time cost.
My understanding is Lion in Quebec uses diesel air heaters, so you need fuel, and electricity to run the heater and the fans to move the air.
Don't get me wrong, they are fairly clean burning, but I do believe there are no emission regulations for them, exhaust is vented directly from the combustion chamber to the atmosphere with no treatment what soever. So we are not zero emissions anymore are we? Even in the summer here, when school is on you sometimes need the heaters first thing in the morning to clear the windshield and or when it is raining.
Please step in and correct me at any time if I am wrong.
Just give it to us straight, we are big boys, we can handle it :)
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2017 :  05:34:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I just watched a TV show over the weekend about an older car converted to electric in the 80s. These people bought it and pulled the motor and explained that the original motor was a brush motor and with the advancements in motor technologies we now have brushless models that require a lot less maintenance. They stated that the old motor required a new set of brushes about every 2,000 miles. In comparison, the new motor will be "practically" maintenance free. They also briefly touched on battery advances.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 02/27/2017 :  05:36:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here the show I am talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TC697fvw2A

Bryan
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DragonMa15
New Member

1 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2017 :  04:15:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit DragonMa15's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Hey I'm new around here, but I am the tech for one of the school districts that was awarded an eLion. As far as heating systems, they are running a ProHeat diesel heater, with an electric heater, the expected mileage would be cut drastically. At the assembly plant I saw that eLion is working on an electric A/C option for the buses currently being made for California, but right now the electric draw was just too high. Those buses were going to be outfitted with 5 battery packs, ours is equipped with 4. If we paid for the additional 5th, they projected about a 100 mile range. But the cost for each battery pack is right around 30k with a warranty of 5 years. The actual working mileage is significantly less, but depends heavily on the operator.

The things they did right are great though. All the panels below the last rub rail are composite and can be swapped out in about 20 min. The battery box and entry way are both made entirely out of the same composite and are completely rust and acid proof. The roofs are one piece, no rivets to be found. The body is a bit wider making a wider aisle. The ergonomics for the driver are nice, including an actual waste receptacle. And they are still making a Cummins powered bus, though they are trying to phase that out of production and focus solely on the electric market. At around $320,000 for the bus and another $80,000 for the charging system, I think most operators are going to wait to see what Bluebird has to offer before jumping into the deep end.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2017 :  04:20:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice to have you here DragonMa15! Please keep us informed about what all goes right and wrong with these new buses.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2017 :  05:20:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DragonMa15

Hey I'm new around here, but I am the tech for one of the school districts that was awarded an eLion. As far as heating systems, they are running a ProHeat diesel heater, with an electric heater, the expected mileage would be cut drastically. At the assembly plant I saw that eLion is working on an electric A/C option for the buses currently being made for California, but right now the electric draw was just too high. Those buses were going to be outfitted with 5 battery packs, ours is equipped with 4. If we paid for the additional 5th, they projected about a 100 mile range. But the cost for each battery pack is right around 30k with a warranty of 5 years. The actual working mileage is significantly less, but depends heavily on the operator.

The things they did right are great though. All the panels below the last rub rail are composite and can be swapped out in about 20 min. The battery box and entry way are both made entirely out of the same composite and are completely rust and acid proof. The roofs are one piece, no rivets to be found. The body is a bit wider making a wider aisle. The ergonomics for the driver are nice, including an actual waste receptacle. And they are still making a Cummins powered bus, though they are trying to phase that out of production and focus solely on the electric market. At around $320,000 for the bus and another $80,000 for the charging system, I think most operators are going to wait to see what Bluebird has to offer before jumping into the deep end.



Welcome to the team! We are pretty easy to get along with here, I hope you enjoy and benefit from the group. Please do keep us up to date on the ins and outs of the eBus!

Bryan
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dferrell
Senior Member

102 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2017 :  3:56:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here in California the ARB is pushing the electric buses pretty hard. I too get tired of them being called zero emissions. I understand that the power being made from a power plant vs diesel exhaust is less, but they are NOT zero emissions.
I know they are saying a 100 mile range but I've heard that in reality most people will see less when you factor in hills, loads, etc. Also, I don't know this but I would guess that the batteries will "wear" the more times they are charged and discharged. I would think they would loose efficiency - just like a cordless drill. So you might start with around a 75 - 100 mile range and that could drop to even lower. (Again, guessing.) We couldn't use them on most field trips and only have a couple of routes that it might work on.
Then with the price, we could get almost 3 diesel buses for the price of 1 electric. In my opinion, the technology just isn't there yet.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2017 :  04:36:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dferrell

...I too get tired of them being called zero emissions.



+1

Maybe "More environmentally friendly" would be the better phrase? Even then I'm not so sure. Hazardous waste from the spent batteries comes to mind.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 03/29/2017 :  05:32:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dferrell

Here in California the ARB is pushing the electric buses pretty hard. I too get tired of them being called zero emissions. I understand that the power being made from a power plant vs diesel exhaust is less, but they are NOT zero emissions.
I know they are saying a 100 mile range but I've heard that in reality most people will see less when you factor in hills, loads, etc. Also, I don't know this but I would guess that the batteries will "wear" the more times they are charged and discharged. I would think they would loose efficiency - just like a cordless drill. So you might start with around a 75 - 100 mile range and that could drop to even lower. (Again, guessing.) We couldn't use them on most field trips and only have a couple of routes that it might work on.
Then with the price, we could get almost 3 diesel buses for the price of 1 electric. In my opinion, the technology just isn't there yet.



I'm also wondering how they will fair not being used during the summer. I grew up on a farm and we always had battery trouble on our combine when it wasn't used for several weeks/ months.

Bryan
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