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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  06:48:57 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I was curious what anyone else thinks or prefers to use as far as extra fuel additives for your fleet in winter months.... I know the method I use and brand of additive we use in the coldest temps, which hasn't let me down so far.. This may have been a discussion before, I did not search topics.. but thought it might be a good discussion and maybe bring up some useful info for myself and others

1) Do you use pour in additives in your buses or on site fuel tank, or just rely on supplier to have available/bring you properly treated fuel when winter temps start?

2)Do you use an additive that Emulsifies water and is suppose to keep it flowing in fuel or one that Demulsifies it and relies more on mechanical means to remove water,, be it draining tanks and changing water separating filters more often?

3)If you add to each vehicle, control of over use by drivers?.. for instance if your fleet isn't housed at one yard and fueled at same location like mine are...

4) Or do you use some form of fuel additive year round?

I use some extra additives year around due to fueling situation... The product I have used for the last 12 years in winter is suppose to emulsify water and keep it flowing in fuel(knock on wood) with no negative effects known yet..

I have a constant battle keeping drivers from using too much..! I basically have to put out what I deem necessary for each week and hand it to drivers to regulate amount of additive used... Then hope they don't find where I stashed the cases of it..

Edited by - slippert on 10/21/2016 06:52:04 AM

Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  07:45:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I keep an eye out for when the stuff goes on sale, and I stock up for the year. Getting antigel in January when it's -15 is impossible around here.

Just this year I've begun adding PowerService's grey bottle to the actual fuel tank as a year-round deal. I get fuel 7500 gallons at a time and they offer a concentration that works out to be 2 bottles for that quantity. $200 each time the fuel tank is filled. I plan to spread that cost evenly over the fleet at the end of the year to account for it. Since I just started, too soon to say if it helps. The idea was to help performance, economy, and injectors.

We change the fuel filters every summer and it works out to be over-servicing most of the fleet, except 2 handicap buses that need them 2x a year. Of course if there's a water or fuel incident, that bus gets changed again.

NW Ohio can be bitter cold or mild in winter, so we just take a watch and see approach. My supplier doesn't offer a "winter blend", so we add PowerService's white bottle directly to the buses when it's looking like we will be at 25 or lower.

Generally the guys and I run around the lot (we just have one) and add the stuff ourselves that initial time, and we call in the park-out buses before they leave the campus after unloading that morning to dose them. 90% of the drivers then continue to add the treatment as-needed, the 10% that can't grasp the dosing ratio required...we do it for them. I buy the bottle that does 100 gallons since so far it's worked out to be the most economical.

As for water (a very rare occurance here), if a bus has an issue (including gelling) it gets PowerService 911 red bottle, new filters, and we keep a close eye on it for a week or so depending on how many miles it's route is.

Once in 5 years I have dosed the fuel tank with the red bottle after one bus ended up with a major water problem. My ATG wasn't showing any water in the tank however I wanted to err on the side of caution. Turned out to be vandalism at a wrestling meet. 3 or 4 schools had the same issue after that trip.

Overuse... of antigel...I know it happens sometimes and I really don't care. Small price to pay to not be stranded alongside the road in my book. Adding more just lowers the temp at which the fuel gells. I suppose dumping 10 gallons in might do some damage, but that would have to be intentional for that to happen.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  08:35:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Luckily it doesn't get that cold here in north Texas, it seems like a pain to prepare for the winter for you guys up north. I feel for you.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  08:40:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I exclusively rely on the supplier. I have told them that they live in the same climate that I do. I said, you put in my fuel what you put in your truck. I know they want to keep their truck going in the coldest weather so it only makes sense to me to rely on the experts.

Bryan
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eddo
Advanced Member

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  08:44:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here in Arizona, I just have to watch out for year round cactus thorns. or perhaps changing out my tires summer air for winter air. ;)

I couldn't handle the cold weather that some of you brave through. Ya'll are a lot tougher than I am.

Edited by - eddo on 10/21/2016 08:44:50 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  09:14:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
lol, I have always said that about the "guys up north". I live just south of I-70 in Illinois so we don't have near the winters that most think of when saying those "guys up north". I feel blessed that we have little problem with rust but still enjoy the change of seasons. I do often lament that I would like for it to just go below freezing and stay there. We freeze and then thaw at least three to four times a winter. It becomes a muddy mess and the buses like like they've been in a mud bogg. The best day in the winter is one that's about 25 degrees and the sun shining bright. If snow is on the ground you have to change that to about 15 to 20 or you'll be fighting slick roads.

Back to the subject, if you have good supplier of fuel he'll save you money adding winter treatment at the terminal with his equipment. These days, supplier are looking to set themselves apart from the rest and many times they that means adding services like this at little cost.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  09:29:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We're in north central Iowa, we don't use any fuel additives. Our fuel supplier just brings us what he considers to be an appropriate blend of #1/#2 fuel.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  09:44:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure about down south of here (Northern NY included ) :) But here thew fuel is much cleaner than it use to be and we switch to # 1 Diesel in the winter which has a lower gel and cloud point. It is common to get down to -31*F for a few weeks and have not had any fuel related problems without additives.
Going back about 10 years ago I started adding conditioner to our storage tanks in December through to March. There was much more water in the fuel back then.
Now, not very often we have to drain water from the separator between filter changes and most of the time there is just a few drops to less than 1/4 OZ water in the separator.
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iceracer
Active Member

32 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  5:08:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit iceracer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here in northern MN, we go sub zero for a couple months. We currently have our own 1,000 gallon tanks, with same supplier for those tanks. We watch the weather, but normally by mid-November we go to straight off-road #1 diesel, (no bio mixed in). This has worked well. We change out fuel filters and water separators after school has started, running any old fuel out before changing filters.
This summer at training, a fuel supplier asked what we do for additives. I told him during the cold snaps, I keep 911 available in case of issues. He informed me that 911 is basically isopropyl acohol! He suggested that if we feel there is a moisture issue, add iso in the tanks before those cold spells, we should see no issues due to moisture... and save ourselves some $$$...
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ICBUS07-30
Senior Member

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2016 :  8:26:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No additives just a lot of ether.

Side note we put our extension cords out a couple weeks ago.

Formally ICBUS0730

Edited by - ICBUS07-30 on 10/21/2016 8:30:27 PM
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2016 :  07:58:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I use Powerservice in the white bottle, we rarely have a gelling issue, if we do we usually find the fuel filter heater has a broken wire or bad element.

Now I have buses that were ordered WITHOUT air dryers. The brakes freeze up about 5xs a winter. Junk boxes

Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1



Edited by - bluebirdvision on 10/22/2016 08:00:26 AM
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  06:00:13 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The reason I spoke about over use, was reading the literature on an additive a salesman wants me to try sounds like freeze/gell protection goes away with use of too much product in tank, same as say running straight antifreeze vs 50/50 mix, you get better protection with equal amounts of antifreeze and water than you do with either one alone...

I too, have to school same 10 percent or more on proper use of additives, most of time they get it... as Thomasbus said they just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of the dosing ratio... I have pulled filters in past on a bus to the very strong odor of an additive, so strong that my felling was it was very concentrated amount in tank and they were definitely still not understanding the dosing ratio... I am a firm believer in the saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" , but too much of a good thing can be harmful in some cases..lol
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  07:17:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote


I too, have to school same 10 percent or more on proper use of additives, most of time they get it... as Thomasbus said they just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of the dosing ratio... I have pulled filters in past on a bus to the very strong odor of an additive, so strong that my felling was it was very concentrated amount in tank and they were definitely still not understanding the dosing ratio... I am a firm believer in the saying "an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure" , but too much of a good thing can be harmful in some cases..lol
[/quote]

you could ask them "when you have a headache do you take a couple aspirin, or 30?"

-Ken-
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  07:55:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bluebirdvision

Now I have buses that were ordered WITHOUT air dryers. The brakes freeze up about 5xs a winter. Junk boxes



Add AD9's to those and be happy
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  07:58:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert


I too, have to school same 10 percent or more on proper use of additives, most of time they get it... as Thomasbus said they just don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of the dosing ratio...



"I just put 50 gallons of fuel in my bus, but the bottle says it treats 100 gallons, so I need a smaller bottle please." Actual conversation had last year.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  09:41:22 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
It is amazing the conversations we entertain some days! we should write a book

I Get the, "Its too hard to figure out how much, so I just put a bottle in every day"...

The aspirin example, I like it... eh... might work,lol ..but my guess is I would still get the dumbfounded look and then possibly.. "what has aspirin got to do with this?" I guess regardless it keeps the job fun or really frustrating...!;-)
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  10:13:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
North central Ohio. We treat fuel only when weather is severe. PS white bottle.
Our fleet is centralized and drivers are not permitted to add anything.
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2016 :  10:18:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
ive got the same kinda problem with fuel additives for the grounds crew. either its mostly the additive, or its mostly water because they drive around with the fuel can sitting in the back of the truck without the cap on. ive seen more than a few stihl tools with "hard start" issues. they wernt hard to start, the pistons were seized. and we could put a book together with miles of laughs in it, and we would all think its hilarious until someone uses it as a "how-to" manual and ruins our day. eh, if nothing else our jobs arent boring.

-Ken-
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Truckin
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2016 :  11:20:03 AM  Show Profile  Visit Truckin's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I use 16 oz of power service (white bottle) and then add 3 ounces of water remover and that goes per 50 gallons of fuel. When it gets below 0 then the amount is doubled. The last couple years doing this we did not have an incident that required a tow truck here in northern wisconsin.
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