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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
 Posted - 10/18/2016 : 10:12:03 PM
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| Last week bus went out and it died . This is a Ford Cutaway chassis . They had it towed back to the school . I went to look at it and tried to start it . No smoke and my scan tool said cam sensor was bad . Crank sensor was bad . I use a 3.0 Genisys for checking . Anyway I ran the KOEO test and it said everything is fine . Pulled the filters a they were bad . Cleaned things up and installed new filters . Bus still wouldn't start . I have fuel pressure I was able to bleed the filters . Later this afternoon I tried again and I could get some smoke and maybe a hiccup . Any ideas where to start or test ? I have oil and the gauge shows pressure during cranking . I also realize this is like the VT 365 . Thanks |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 04:09:59 AM
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| Check the IDM relay, not sure where it's located since its a E450 but that's where I would start looking. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 07:54:37 AM
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| I will look into that . I have another thought and that is the fuel pressure regulater . I think the filters were so bad maybe it destroyed the fuel presssure regulater ? Just a thought . Thanks |
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eddo
Advanced Member
USA
311 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 10:09:03 AM
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Did you replace Crank/Cam sensors?
Also, Ford has a fuel cut off switch up behind the passenger side rocker panel- at least my 06 E350 did. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 12:05:20 PM
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| I have notreplaced those sensors . It shows up as a code during cranking . When I run the KOEO test it says all is fine . Does the test not check cam and crank sensors ? |
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eddo
Advanced Member
USA
311 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 12:18:11 PM
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Crank sensor will absolutely cause a no start.
Not sure if it is tested on a KOEO test, but I think it should be. |
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n2682
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 12:27:04 PM
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| yes eddo it is tested cam and crank both and they will throw there own code in the ford platform. i would assume more to do with stc fitting on high pressure oil pump they are known to explode it needs 450 psi of high pressure oil on these to fire injectors. ficm needs to be no less than 45 volts as well. when you turn key on do you hear anything or is it silent should hear injectors and glow plugs cycle? |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 1:59:57 PM
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| When I turn the switch on I get all kinds of noises . I hear things cycling . The person driving said it just stopped like someone turned the key off . |
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n2682
Active Member
41 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 2:43:25 PM
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| injector pressure regulator is also a very common issue on the 6.0 to fail i would really start with looking at the high pressure oil system! |
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eddo
Advanced Member
USA
311 Posts |
Posted - 10/19/2016 : 3:57:20 PM
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Personally, I'd start with the codes I have and go from there. I have seen more than my fair share of bad crank sensors in the IH engines (which this is.)
Beyond that: What is cranking Oil pressure? Fuel pressure? I don't remember off the top of my head, but 450 PSI for high pressure oil seems low. I thought it was over 10,000 psi to fire the injectors (more like 18,000) I could be thinking a different engine though.
My 6.0 was totaled a couple years ago. I don't miss it a bit, lol |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2016 : 07:00:53 AM
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Hello here is the cheat sheet I use for the 6.0 fords. I use either the factory scanner or snapon solus but you almost need a good up to date scanner that will give you good live data. Both syncs need to rad yes or there is a cam, crank issue. We do more trucks then buses and i would have to say 9 out of t10 time sits a icp pressure issue. Give it a read I have it pinned to the scanner cart. *****
There are no "fuel rails" on this engine. Fuel leaves the filter on two lines to passages inside the heads. Do you have a scan tool that will display sensor data? Look at ICP pressure and volts, IPR duty cycle, FICM_SYNC, SYNC, RPM, FICM_MPWR, FICM_VPWR, and FICM_LPWR.
ICP has to get to 500 PSI or 1.0 volt for the engine to start. Normally, the IPR duty cycle will be 35-50% for this to happen. If it's at 85%, you have a high pressure oil system leak, or the HP pump can't build pressure. Usually this is a leak on the oil rails under the valve covers (dummy plugs, bleed plugs, standpies, injector o-rings) or the HP pump outlet fitting.
If you don't have SYNC, there is a problem with the cam or crank position sensors--"SYNC" means the PCM hs seen the #1 TDC pulse from the CKP and CMP. FICM_SYNC is when the FICM and PCM are communicating.
FICM_MPWR has to be higher than 45 volts to power the injectors. FICM_LPWR and _VPWR need to be at battery voltage for this to happen. If LPWR and VPWR are dropping low, check batteries, cables, fuses and FICM relay. If they are fine and FICM_MPWR is low, the FICM needs to be reprogrammed or replaced.
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 10/20/2016 : 09:23:00 AM
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I know how you feel eddo, I have to admit I had a smile on my face when I saw our last 6.0 ford towed into the yard. I already knew there were no children on the bus, and the drive was fine, but the E450 was no more :) LOL. I still smile when I think of it.
Some good info to follow namao.l |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/28/2016 : 9:54:34 PM
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| So far I found bad battery cables and batteries were marginal . Fixed cables and replaced batteries . Still no start . My ICP says I have 13 lbs when trying to start .I have oil pressure of 80 lbs in the main pump and 1000 lbs in the HPOP . My fuel pump says 100% on my Genisys 3.0 . My inertia switch rattles and the button doesn't stay down . Is there supposed to be power at that switch ? if so there is none . My FICM says I have 48 volts . |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/30/2016 : 11:46:45 AM
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| Hello yes looking at wiring diagram dk green/orange should be power input form fuel pump relay , output form inertia switch should be white wire to pump. fuel pressure is the one thing ford does not monitor. Only way to know is to test. I take it when you say 13 lbs you meant 1.3 volts icp? icp pressure needs to be 500lbs which you say hpop is 1,000. I am on the repair site IATN a far amount and they have a very good HD section and library. A member was having 6.0 starting issues last week and some one posted these youtube video's that were actually pretty good. the guy is selling tools but the testing procedures are dead on. Google search [ dieseltechron 6.0 no start ] give them a look defiantly should help in how to diagnose. here is a link as well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VFu-73mpSQ Just some thoughts, If ficm is good, hpop is good, sync is good the next thing I would be doing is buzzing the injectors , this would tell me ecm to ficm to injectors is good the only thing left is fuel pressure. Does it smoke, no smoke no fuel, smoke I have fuel. Glow plugs working? If I had good glow plug [min 180 amp draw total] and were getting smoke could have a mechanical issue as well. I would then disconnect glow plug module [disable glow plugs] try a start with starting fuel, if it wont start know there would have to be a mechanical issue then.Good luck. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2016 : 06:07:00 AM
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| Namao all I can say is wow and thanks . I will take a look at the ICP to make sure of what I am talking about . The Video I started and will finish later . Thanks aghin and will get back on here and fill everyone in on what I find . |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2016 : 07:36:56 AM
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I just checked some things with my scanner it does say 8.9 lbs for Injection control pressure . Now when I checked the FICM it showed 11.5
vehicle power and someother power at 9.8 . When vehicle was brought in the negative battery wire was moving around in the terminal to the battery . Could that have taken out the FICM ? Also I get no smoke and if I use WD40 it will run for 1or 2 seconds and stop . |
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namao
Senior Member
Canada
89 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2016 : 1:40:39 PM
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| Hello sounds like your making some progress, I see this ron guy has a video on ficms as well here is the link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4nJrJ8d93I shows how to check for 48v with out a scanner in case there is scanner issues. usually on my snapon and ford ids it lists out all 3 ficm voltages LPWR min 10 volts, MPWR min 47.5 volts and VPWR min 10 volts. And yes bad batterys, loose connections etc. will fry these ficms. My first issue though would be the IPC has to have min 500psi, 13 psi is a big issue. I usually start with the ipr [I have a test one} they will stick and also have to check for damaged screens. Next is all the connections in the system, last one we did couple weeks ago was above a injector to the hpop manifold, it was blown apart. We pressure tested system to find fault. Again this is first time I have looked at these videos but they seem to be on track. |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 10/31/2016 : 3:13:56 PM
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Well I made some progress . I changed the oil and pulled the IPR . The screen was fine . When I removed the screen and checked the plunger . I had a hard time making it click like in the video . So I thought lets squirts some brake kleen in it and see what happens . Well it clicked easier . I reinstalled it and the ICP came up to 40 psi . Not enough to start but I did have some smoke .So I am inclined to believe bad HPOP Thanks
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td83
Senior Member
83 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2016 : 06:29:43 AM
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Ipr very common issue change this first
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BigPapa
Advanced Member
215 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2016 : 06:54:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by n2682
i would assume more to do with stc fitting on high pressure oil pump they are known to explode
The STC fittings were not a major issue by '06. |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2016 : 12:31:53 AM
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| IPR is a common problem, how many miles on this beast? |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
802 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2016 : 11:18:31 AM
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| A 120000 miles . |
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Topic |
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06 6.0 ford E450 no start
