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04IC#14
Senior Member
United States
51 Posts |
 Posted - 09/20/2016 : 6:01:42 PM
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| I was wrong, it's 86.9. I'm not sure if that's the actual usable gallons or if it would be %80 of that. I'll look into it more. |
Brandon
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mquiring
Senior Member
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2016 : 7:12:33 PM
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| To those of you with Blue Birds, what kind of range are you getting on a tank of fuel route driving? I'm getting ready to go to bid for a 47 pass route bus and I don't know what I want. I do know that the idea of no def or dpf sounds really nice! If I were to go propane, what would you recommend for a fueling setup for just one bus? It would be at least a couple of years before we would be ready for a second one. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 04:56:48 AM
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| You can do a skid unit for about 15k. My propane supplier provided a fueling setup included in the price of the fuel. The only thing we had to do was sign a contract for 5 years. They knew (and this has been over 5 years ago now) that we planned to purchase more but at the time no one north of Texas had a clue about these LPI units. So, we really didn't know if they would work here in Illinois. I'd seek the assistance of at least one supplier before you bid your bus. As for range, mine will get 300 miles or more on a fill up. They get better as the engine breaks in. It has a lot to do with the driver too. If they punch it like they are used to doing with a diesel you are going to get below 4 mpg and that will take you below the 300 mile range (most likely) |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 05:13:51 AM
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| On a different note but keeping with the thread; I have been told the new IC engine doesn't warm up quite as fast at the V10 in the BB. We know they are a lower RPM engine. So, would that be the only reason they would warm up slower? The other possibility is the cooling system is too large. But I can't believe that after all these years they would be over building on the cooling system. I had that problem with a GM chassis and the 8.2, never would warm up. Even had trouble in 90 plus temps! |
Bryan |
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mquiring
Senior Member
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 05:38:46 AM
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| Thanks for the info! Right now I would lean towards a Blue Bird as I have finally got our fleet to where I am all Bird except for one Thomas FS65, which I can live with. I have talked to our local coop where I buy all of my fuel and I'm not sure if I can get them to swing the full cost of a skid unit. He did talk about the possibility of taking one of their larger trailer mounted tanks and just mounting a pump on it to get me started. We talked about just fueling at their place but they didnt seem real excited about having to come out and fill for us every couple of days. They are a small coop and are trying extremely hard to stay competitive and not have to sell out to a larger coop. Our manager seems interested in me getting a propane but not overly excited about it. I'm wondering if there markup is higher on diesel than it is on propane. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 06:21:10 AM
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| Yeah, I think there is more "profit" in diesel because of the volume that they handle. I would think they would be more than happy to get your business if they can increase their propane gallons. With a small concern like that, they are not going to have the capital to lay out there for the skid and that's probably their reluctance. Especially if they don't know if there's going to more gallons in the subsequent years. My advice is to do lots of research on dollars saved to your district and then present this, first to your super, and then to your board. With that information your "people" can make an informed decision on the future. They can put down some markers for you to hit, saying if you hit those in a certain time period then they will purchase more units on a proposed date. It will just work better if you have everyone on the same page. Hope this helps. |
Bryan |
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mquiring
Senior Member
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 07:56:45 AM
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| I agree with you on setting some goals with it and see how it works out. I'd like to think that if it worked out well that we would buy another in two to three years. We're a small fleet and dont need to buy a bus every year. We're still running three GMC B7's and I'm not sure if I want to get rid of them because they are the most dependable buses we own. I'm lucky that my board is made up of a bunch of farmers so not taking low bid is not a big deal to them. They understand that you pay for what you get. The last bus I bought took less than two minutes for me to explain to them why I wanted the one that I did and for them to approve it. And the other good part is that they all use propane for irrigation and understand its benefits. Several of them are even using V10 Fords on wells and like them so hopefully it wont be a hard sell. Thanks Bryan for the info! |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 08:06:57 AM
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| Wow! I envy you!! You have half, or more, of the battle won already! I agree with the B7 setup, I really like it too. One of the dumbest things Chevy did wasvto quit making that chassis. And I'm not even a Chevy fan, per se. |
Bryan |
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2016 : 11:17:01 AM
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| I've had similar results as bwest. Not sorry at all we switched to propane; we already were an all-Bird fleet. 41 diesels; 6 propanes; 3 type-A gassers. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 05:20:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sherm
I've had similar results as bwest. Not sorry at all we switched to propane; we already were an all-Bird fleet. 41 diesels; 6 propanes; 3 type-A gassers.
I just wish the fuel mileage was better! I understand the btu difference is the reason but a person would think things should be better. Propane= 91,600 BTU vs. diesel= 139,000. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 05:25:17 AM
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LOL, I guess I'm starting my own conversation here. I found this interesting but it has different information than other sources. Still pretty good for comparison on BTUs. The BTUs are at the bottom of the first page.
http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf
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Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 08:11:40 AM
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"I just wish the fuel mileage was better! I understand the btu difference is the reason but a person would think things should be better. Propane= 91,600 BTU vs. diesel= 139,000."
The MPG differance isn't just all about the BTUs.
A diesel engine is more efficient at turning the heat energy into mechanical energy, so less heat is rejected into the cooling system and out the tailpipe than on spark ignition engines. The diesel downside is less heat for the bus interior. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 09:18:43 AM
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The process itself is the issue. It will be interesting to see the development of this. |
Bryan |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 2:27:24 PM
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quote:
was wrong, it's 86.9. I'm not sure if that's the actual usable gallons or if it would be %80 of that. I'll look into it more
Pretty sure the IC tank is the same useable as the smaller BB tank. 86.9 gallons = 69 gallon useable |
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04IC#14
Senior Member
United States
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/22/2016 : 4:13:55 PM
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| I asked our mechanic and he was under the assumption that the 86.9 gallons was the usable gallons on the IC, but was going to do some checking to make sure. Once the IC is going down the road it warms up pretty quick, it's just been a little slow warming up at an idle whereas the v10 would warm up quicker at an idle. |
Brandon
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2016 : 05:19:38 AM
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| I can't swear to it but I think the Thomas and IC tanks are manufactured by the same company. So, therefore, are probably the same tanks. It will be interesting to see this develop as well. The Thomas and IC engines were developed separately by separate companies but then they merged after the engines were brought to market (or at least as they were coming to market). To my knowledge, they are still operating as separate companies but everyone has seen this before in industry, they'll stay separate for a while. I can see a time when this company takes the best of each and make them one. So, we could possibly be left with only two companies out there producing engines. There are other companies producing fuel systems for cars and pick up trucks though. So, if the market is there, I'd say one of those would get in there (or a major) and stir the pot. |
Bryan |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 09/23/2016 : 2:52:49 PM
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| Take some measurements, circumference and length. It should be pretty easy to get an estimate the total volume. If that estimate is close to 85 gallons, you'll know it doesn't equal useable. |
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RBrian
Senior Member
United States
71 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2016 : 04:24:20 AM
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| We recently put a bid for LPG buses. I asked for 100 gallon tank size. What I got back was BB has 116 gallon offering IC has 86.2 and Thomas was 70. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2016 : 05:20:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by RBrian
We recently put a bid for LPG buses. I asked for 100 gallon tank size. What I got back was BB has 116 gallon offering IC has 86.2 and Thomas was 70.
I know for a fact that the 116 is liquid volume on the BB (92.8). As for the 70 and 86, that would be 56 and 68.8 respectively.
So, your range on a trip will be about 275 on the Thomas and 345 on the IC. Then 475 or so on a BB. I'm using 5.5 for mileage on a trip, may be more in real life. But it's going to be close to that for all of them. If I'm going wrong here, someone please let us know. |
Bryan |
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04IC#14
Senior Member
United States
51 Posts |
Posted - 11/23/2016 : 4:07:32 PM
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| Last time I checked the mileage on my IC I got 4.3. That was over two days of route driving. The PSI definitely drives like a diesel engine as far as power and torque. I've been real happy with it. |
Brandon
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2016 : 05:29:18 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 04IC#14
Last time I checked the mileage on my IC I got 4.3. That was over two days of route driving. The PSI definitely drives like a diesel engine as far as power and torque. I've been real happy with it.
About like a Blue Bird with the Ford V10 then. I think mine are getting in the 4.7 range on our routes and as much as a mile per gallon more on a trip. |
Bryan |
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Topic |
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Battle of the propanes.....IC vs BB vs Tho- Take 2
