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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 08/11/2016 : 05:48:34 AM
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OK, the first thread was started by a driver who wasn't authorized by his employer to make statements about his experiences. We can say many things about such situations but we have to respect the employer in his/ her effort to control their situation. I know I like to know what is going out at my place (not to mention my boss likes that as well  ).
That being said, I want to put this out and (as you can see) add Thomas to it. I, as most of you know, believe that propane is the answer to many of the questions we have as people who take care of and operate in these big yellow safety machines. Questions like; how do I control costs?-- How do I warm up the bus better?-- How do I get more miles/ years out of my machines with the least COO?-- Not to mention, how do I put up a better front in the wake of more people wanting a cleaner environment for their child?
There are many other questions/ opinions/ facts out there and that's the reason I think this thread deserves a fresh start!
Get set, Get ready...... GO! |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2016 : 2:20:37 PM
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| So, I'll get things rolling. What are your opinions on propane? Please mention if you have had any experience with propane (past or current). I think everyone has an opinion on the subject. |
Bryan |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 08/11/2016 : 3:31:06 PM
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| No experience with them, and up until recently I haven't been too enthused about them. We have a couple V10s in maintenance trucks here (gas) and I think they suck, so I was not too keen on the V10 in the Birds. I did however have a very short ride in the Thomas, and that thing had some punch to it. My higher ups are not really interested in them at all, but with all the problems we've had with our new Cummins, they're looking like a better option. That's my $.02. |
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 04:29:23 AM
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| Not sure if I'll every buy another diesel. We're up to 6 propane Visions now and so far, so good. No major mechanical issues yet; drivers like them; they are better for the environment; they are cheaper to operate. The only downside is the decrease in MPG; we've not fully addressed the lack of range yet...we still send diesels out of the area on trips. |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 05:00:53 AM
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Back in the 80's I started with a company that was phasing out their propane vehicles as too many problems, mostly in the cold weather. Not sure if all problems were propane though, shortly after I started there one died on the road, right away they blamed the propane. But what I found was a defective ignition module. :)Shortly after that they got rid of the last 2 propane vehicle, so I have no real experience with them but they were quite popular for the local taxi industry and mini busses for several years but all switched to gasoline or diesel.
Fast forward, 2 year ago we had a colder than normal winter, -25C to -35C (-13f to -31f)most of the winter.
Many rural homes in our area use propane for heating, myself I have a propane fireplace for some heating and back up heat. There became a shortage of propane, they blamed the hi use of propane by the farmers in Canada and the US as they use it to dry their corn and with the colder than normal winter in Canada and the US was causing a shortage.
So, just wondering are todays propane vehicles duel fuel or propane only?
How reliable are they today in colder climates? Better than they were back in the 80's?
Not a big deal, but here you need additional license to work on propane vehicles, but not natural gas. You also need a license to fill a propane vehicle.
Would we not be better off with gasoline engines? |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:25:29 AM
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On licensing; that will be a local/ state/ province thing. Here in Illinois you have to be certified to fill only. The recommendation is that you use the same safety precautions as are being used when working on gasoline. If you read about the pressures involved with natural, I would say the more logical approach would be to have a license to work on NG.
In cold weather they warm up faster and preform better. Throw out all you know about propane from the 70s and 80s, there's little similarities other than the fuel. There's a pump in the fuel tank that maintains around 50psi above tank pressure in the lines and rails. There isn't a vaporizer any longer, only injectors that are controlled by an ECM that inject into the intake stream.
School buses are dedicated propane and with an optional larger tank, they will run over 375 miles per tank on a trip (a little less on the route because a reduced mileage because of stop and go).
On the comment about being better off with gasoline. Well..... lol, my short answer is no. However, you must think about the pricing in that discussion. Our local pricing for gasoline is about 2 bucks. Our district just paid 94 cents a couple weeks ago for 800 gallons. Gasoline will get a shade better fuel mileage but we're talking tenths of a gallon per mile better. So, with gasoline being twice the price as propane, there's no comparison. I know pricing is local so my area may be better than other places. That is the reason that all three bus companies are going to tell you that propane isn't for everyone but, I would interject my opinion here, that propane is for most. |
Bryan |
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iceracer
Active Member
32 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 3:46:23 PM
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I am an independent service provider, who also has been a bus driver for 22+ years. We run in cold climate (down to -52F, but that day was a fluke!) We routinely see temps in January in the -30f mornings.
Until this past January, our district was NOT going to switch to propane-didn't want to go there! The person paying the bills was going out of their mind each month with repair costs on our diesels (mainly emissions issues). They spent many weeks doing research on propane last winter, and talked to many who currently run them. After educating themselves on the propane (Birds), they leased one bus from February-end of May, with option to buy at end of lease.
Well, we bought that one, and ordered 2 more. I went to the Roush factory and saw the complete assembly process, and my response was WOW, these engines are back to the basic engines-no emissions, mechanic-friendly, and when Jack Roush puts his name on something, there will be research to no end! Each rail system holds 5 injectors, ($75-$85 replacement cost per injector!). It is a liquid injection system, so liquid right the injectors. The fuel system has dual fuel pumps (located inside fuel tank, easy the service). When engine shuts off, complete fuel system de-pressurizes. Pretty fool-proof.
We got the 100 gallon tanks, which this spring the driver got about 420 miles on before filling on one of his trips. He averaged between 4-4.75 mpg. We paid (after fed road tax removed) about $.69/gal. for propane, and I understand we will be locking in for a 2-yr price.
Working on it- in talking with many others already running them: Change oil every 5k miles, put propane in them and drive them. No emission lights coming on, no fuel filters to change,, instant heat even in the sub-zero cold. All the sports teams WANT them to take the propane bus because they are so quiet, and of course good heat.
I just realized the thread was comparing! OOPS- sorry- I have no information of the IC or Thomas propanes... Just felt like giving my opinion on why propane buses should be considered for your fleets!
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bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
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Mountain Dew
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2016 : 05:08:19 AM
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Our fleet is mostly propane. The drivers like them. We like them because we aren't chasing engine lights or plugged up exhaust all the time.
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Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 08/14/2016 : 08:17:49 AM
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| With IC and Thomas offering propane now, it will be good to watch the competition hopefully drive down pricing and improve the offerings to the customer. With equal offerings from all manufacturers, it will all boil down to dealer support and customer service. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2016 : 05:18:50 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Sherm
With IC and Thomas offering propane now, it will be good to watch the competition hopefully drive down pricing and improve the offerings to the customer. With equal offerings from all manufacturers, it will all boil down to dealer support and customer service.
Amen, brother!! I have been on my dealer (the largest dealer Bird has) to communicate to BB that they have a tiger by the tail and need to take advantage of the situation, by dropping the price and dominating the market, before the others catch on. They did close the gap between diesel and propane a bit but not as much as I'd like. I'd like to see the pricing equal. My guess is, if these other companies can get a good track record we're going to see some serious pricing competition in the near future. This "should" be good for everyone. My fear, though, is that with competition on pricing that we're going to see some sub par stuff out of these plants. I already think that these buses (all three companies, for the most part) are building these buses to last through a 5 year lease and that's it. I hope the propane engine doesn't suffer the same fate.
I hope everyone understands I'm not saying these companies are turning out unsafe vehicles. That wouldn't be true at all! I believe all three companies (more if you count small buses) are building the safest bus that has been on the road since they were invented. However, in an effort to shave cost, they are engineering components to last a specific time period and that is never good. My opinion is they should design a components to last 20 years. That away if you wanted to keep the darn things longer you could and the resale would be higher for those wanting to rotate them out after 5 years. |
Bryan |
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sbfreader
Senior Member
153 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2016 : 3:51:55 PM
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| Don't mean to hijack the thread but I spent nearly 20 years on the "inside" as it were in school bus manufacturing. I can categorically tell you that items are not designed with a life expectency. These are based on a variety of competing criteria. Life cycle cost, component cost, and so on. Truth be told, school buses are incredibly economical. I can't think of one other vehicle in the vocational category priced as low as a school bus given its duty cycle and longevity. I would go so far as to say I have been in meetings where the virtues of one component was being debated over another and the question always comes up, "Will a customer be willing to pay extra for this?" Unfortunately, many times the answer was simply "no". |
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Mountain Dew
New Member
4 Posts |
Posted - 08/15/2016 : 4:34:40 PM
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we run a fleet of about 40 units. We have 3 Cummins, 2 Cats, and the balance propane (GM and Ford). And a couple 'burbans and one type A. Up here our biggest enemy is rust and corrosion.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/16/2016 : 05:29:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by sbfreader
Don't mean to hijack the thread but I spent nearly 20 years on the "inside" as it were in school bus manufacturing. I can categorically tell you that items are not designed with a life expectency. These are based on a variety of competing criteria. Life cycle cost, component cost, and so on. Truth be told, school buses are incredibly economical. I can't think of one other vehicle in the vocational category priced as low as a school bus given its duty cycle and longevity. I would go so far as to say I have been in meetings where the virtues of one component was being debated over another and the question always comes up, "Will a customer be willing to pay extra for this?" Unfortunately, many times the answer was simply "no".
This is a little off subject but a good discussion none the less! My big thing with the value of a school bus is the resale. I know the percentage loss on passenger cars and trucks are pretty bad but my opinion is that school buses are worse. Here's an example http://www.midwesttransit.com/search/used/tp/p:2/?q=custom2_School&bd=12451-thomas&yr=2011
This bus was probably at least 70K 5 years ago. Now it's 30K. I believe that leasing and reimbursment from the state/ feds have caused the used market to choke like this. Anyway, back to the propanes, they are probably going to be worse. The good thing is that our district keeps them until we need to buy antique plates for them so the value by then will probably be the same. Heck, who knows, they might even be more valuable! I know with the propane tank they weigh more for scrap value! lol |
Bryan |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 04:21:01 AM
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I was at a Cummins course in Montreal a couple of years ago. (nothing to do with propane) I remember during the tour they had a couple of separated bays with added ventilation and other modifications??? They used these bays for working on propane and natural gas.
Did any of you running propane buses have to make any changes to your shop?
We are not allowed to keep 20 lb propane cylinders indoors here, not sure on what mods if any we would have to make. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 09:38:09 AM
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| I've been ask this several times. So, I'm going to have to find the specifications on it. But what I've been told and read is that there are no changes to your shop beyond what you already have to accommodate gasoline equipment. Propane sinks and runs like water to the low spots in your shop. So, drains and oil change pits are going to be problem areas. But the thing is, we already have this hazard when working on gasoline equipment. If we have a gasoline leak we don't think that the vapor will run into the low spots. I know this is hard to believe, but propane has a smaller "flammability window" than gasoline. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 09:44:48 AM
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Here's another interesting tidbit; Like gasoline, propane is flammable, but has a much narrower range of flammability than gasoline and much higher ignition temperature 920- 1020 degrees vs. 80- 300 degrees for gasoline. Propane will only burn with a fuel-to-air ratio of between 2.2% and 9.6% and will rapidly dissipate beyond its flammability range in the open atmosphere-making ignition unlikely.
http://www.usealtfuels.com/?page_id=12 |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 09:58:41 AM
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| Interesting thing I remember from our IC Tulsa Plant tour was that our guide told us they were only allowed to have one partially filled propane bus fuel tank, that was not attached to a bus, in the building at a time. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 11:13:12 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
Interesting thing I remember from our IC Tulsa Plant tour was that our guide told us they were only allowed to have one partially filled propane bus fuel tank, that was not attached to a bus, in the building at a time.
That's probably and insurance underwriter. They are generally over protecting. Especially when all this is relatively new. At least in the volume we are talking about. |
Bryan |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 04:53:15 AM
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Thanks for the links. I skipped through quickly, the only real change I noticed is they are saying to turn off the tank when indoors unless needed on to run the unit.
I realize it may be harder to ignite, but when it does.....
And yes your insurance may have rules they want you to follow and there may be local laws to follow also. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 06:04:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by torque
I realize it may be harder to ignite, but when it does.....
That's a little bit of a misnomer as well. If you have a propane leak and if, that's a big if, it gets on fire many things can happen but the tank won't explode like you see on movies. Granted if there is a buildup of vapor you are going to have a large ignition that looks like an explosion and does some damage. But, my point here is, the take won't BLEVE. It take heat and time for that to happen. |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 06:25:06 AM
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| i figure the rules against storing tanks indoors is less about ignition and more about the hazard of people breathing in the gas if it leaks. |
-Ken- |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 07:32:23 AM
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Well http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2016/03/2_propane_tanks_explode_at_jersey_city_fire_offici.html
I couldn't find the story closer to my area, but I remember a few years back in the Toronto area I believe, where a fire broke out at a propane storage facility and they had to evacuate the area and close a major highway because propane tanks were exploding and flying through the air, landing on the highway.
If the fire is hot enough and the pressure vent cant keep up with the expansion of its contents. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 08:09:21 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
i figure the rules against storing tanks indoors is less about ignition and more about the hazard of people breathing in the gas if it leaks.
No intention of being "snooty" here. lol Just trying to set the record straight. The "gas" isn't toxic to breath in. However, it displaces oxygen and therefore you will suffocate if there is enough to displace it all and you don't evacuate. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 08:17:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by torque
Well http://www.nj.com/hudson/index.ssf/2016/03/2_propane_tanks_explode_at_jersey_city_fire_offici.html
I couldn't find the story closer to my area, but I remember a few years back in the Toronto area I believe, where a fire broke out at a propane storage facility and they had to evacuate the area and close a major highway because propane tanks were exploding and flying through the air, landing on the highway.
If the fire is hot enough and the pressure vent cant keep up with the expansion of its contents.
Yes, it's called a BLEVE (Boiling Liquid, Expanding Vapor Explosion). This is when the fire stays on the tank long enough to turn most of the liquid into a vapor and vent that into the atmosphere (of course the vapor is on fire at this time). When the liquid can't sufficiently cool the tank the heat of the fire weakens the metal and the contents are released in a catastrophic failure of the tank. This is very rare and happens only after the tank has been exposed to a fire for several minutes. Of course a full tank is much safer in the situation than an empty one. I'd say the small grill tanks and even the 100 lb tanks, that were flying everywhere, were probably waiting to be filled |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 10:00:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
i figure the rules against storing tanks indoors is less about ignition and more about the hazard of people breathing in the gas if it leaks.
No intention of being "snooty" here. lol Just trying to set the record straight. The "gas" isn't toxic to breath in. However, it displaces oxygen and therefore you will suffocate if there is enough to displace it all and you don't evacuate.
snooty? no. semantics? yes.
i didn't say toxic. i said hazardous.
either way, breathing propane is bad for you. |
-Ken- |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 10:24:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs
i figure the rules against storing tanks indoors is less about ignition and more about the hazard of people breathing in the gas if it leaks.
No intention of being "snooty" here. lol Just trying to set the record straight. The "gas" isn't toxic to breath in. However, it displaces oxygen and therefore you will suffocate if there is enough to displace it all and you don't evacuate.
snooty? no. semantics? yes.
i didn't say toxic. i said hazardous.
either way, breathing propane is bad for you.
lol, just trying to keep the facts straight for anyone reading this. I don't claim to be an expert on anything but will try to put out facts when I know them. The point is, breathing air with no oxygen in it is bad for you. I'm just going by what I've read and been told. I'm not a research scientist. |
Bryan |
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BigPapa
Advanced Member
215 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 10:24:40 AM
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| I was told there was no difference in shop regs between gasoline and propane. There IS a huge difference for CNG. I think the confusion comes from a lot of folks considering CNG and propane as the same. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 11:10:31 AM
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I found this on propane from a reliable site. "Breathing in or swallowing propane can be harmful. Propane takes the place of oxygen in the lungs. This makes breathing difficult or impossible". http://umm.edu/health/medical/ency/articles/propane-poisoning
I also edited my response above to remove "not necessarily propane". I know that when people do a google search on propane school buses they often end up on one of our threads. I want to try and keep my responses factual if possible. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/26/2016 : 11:20:27 AM
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As an interesting compairison, here is what these people say about diesel; "Short-term exposure to diesel fuel vapors can cause difficulty breathing, nausea, eye irritation, increased blood pressure, headache, light-headedness, loss of appetite, poor coordination, and difficulty concentrating".
And here is what they say about gasoline; "Inhaling or swallowing small amounts of gasoline can cause muscle weakness, cramps, dizziness, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, confusion, disorientation, slurred speech, feelings of intoxication, irregular heartbeat, insomnia, irritation of the stomach lining, and swelling and irritation of the nose and throat. Direct eye contact with gasoline may cause permanent eye damage. Direct skin contact with gasoline can irritate and burn the skin".
Since I've started researching and then using propane, I've tried to compare it to the other two prominent fuels in use today. The comparisons become quite eye opening. lol
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Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2016 : 05:25:56 AM
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I'm hearing good things from an IC propane user. So, far it looks like the fuel mileage is right in there with the rest or maybe very slightly better. Very good torque as well.
As a side note, I was called this morning from the driver who drives my oldest V10. Said he had a hard time starting it and then when it started it wouldn't go into drive or reverse. I ask him to shut it off and restart to clear any problems in the computer. Would not restart! Strange! Maybe a ground problem. Will be headed out that way in the next hour. Ah, the joys of running school buses! |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4545 Posts |
Posted - 09/08/2016 : 05:36:14 AM
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Summer got away from me and I never made the hour trip to see our area's first IC propane bus. I gotta do that.
Anyways, word is from a driver there that they are pretty much in love with it and are about to order another one. Biggest concern now is operating range, so it doesn't go on long trips. To be fair I do not know what size tank it has. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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04IC#14
Senior Member
United States
51 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2016 : 7:16:52 PM
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| IC has an 85 gallon propane tank. |
Brandon
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2016 : 05:00:56 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by 04IC#14
IC has an 85 gallon propane tank.
Useable? |
Bryan |
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Topic |
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Battle of the propanes.....IC vs BB vs Tho- Take 2
