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Bus John
New Member
8 Posts |
 Posted - 03/22/2016 : 08:17:58 AM
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Hey everyone. We have a small fleet and about 4 months one of our busses blew an engine. The bus is a 2005 Thomas Saf-T-Liner with a Cummins 5.9 ISB on a Freightliner chassis. Our mechanic said we threw a rod through the block and the engine is toast. Luckily for us we can take a bus out of the fleet and still manage day to day operations. We have a limited budget and are looking at used engines or reman engines.
Anyone gone this route before vs. going to the Cummins Dealer? I've been doing some research and these guys in Denver appear to have a pretty through remanufactured engine process http://capitalremanexchange.com/. There are also some used engines with these guys too, apparently less than 200,000 miles with all of the paperwork. Is buying a used diesel engine a terrible idea? http://capitalremanexchange.com/used-diesel-engines-for-sale/
I've heard of Jasper engines and I know they are a big outfit. Anyone used them before? http://www.jasperengines.com/ |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2016 : 08:45:18 AM
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I would want to consider how long you intend to keep the bus, purchase price, warranty and labor costs. Labor to put it in is no more for a good engine than for a piece of crap, I wouldn't want to do it twice at my expense.
Another thing to consider may be that this bus is pre exhaust aftertreatment unit, if its not a rust bucket, some would rather fix the 2005 right rather than taking chances on a 2010 or newer bus thats out of warranty. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 03/22/2016 08:46:32 AM |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2016 : 09:51:27 AM
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| We are in the process of finishing the replacements of our VT-365's. We went with run ready remans for the 2 year warranty. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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bedfordone
Active Member
USA
47 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2016 : 10:42:25 AM
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| Jasper built engines have been very reliable for us. If you buy a used engine you have know idea what you are getting. If you buy a reman engine you have the safety of a warranty. |
Brian Prochazka
Bedford City Schools
Transportation Specialist |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 03/22/2016 : 1:03:35 PM
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| I've installed 2 Jaspers in the last 3 years so far so good. Only thing is they were VT365 (junk from the word go). I'd go with a reman. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2016 : 05:29:49 AM
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| If you are thinking of only putting limited miles on this unit and then trading in a few years, I'd go to a reputable used dealer and get one there. With a junk block and other internals the reman place will be charging you more because you don't have a core. You may also consider a local guy who has a good reputation rebuilding them. I have a guy that does Cats for me and the first one he did has over 80k on it with only oil leaks as a problem. Everything else on it has been superb. I take them out and he rebuilds them, then I put them back in. Save me tons of money! I think the last one cost us $2,800. |
Bryan |
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Bus John
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2016 : 08:00:59 AM
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Thanks for the input guys. Yeah the block is junk and not repairable so I assume we couldn't use that as a core as the machine shop couldn't use it again for their stock. Like I said we have a pretty limited budget and the bus has to last for quite awhile. I wonder if the trade in valve of the bus would be considerably less with a used or reman engine? As far as a reman or used warranty goes do you guys know what is considered a rock solid practice in the industry? The Capital Reman Exchange warranty is 12 months unlimited miles, parts and labor for the first 6 months and then parts for the second 6 months. They said on the used engine side that the engines come from their partnerships of truck salvage facilities all over the country, have paperwork on maintenance and overhauls, are run tested and have the oil samples taken. Warranties are usually 90 or 180 days. I would hate to buy a used engine and have the thing fail in 5 or 6 months. Seems like a gamble to me.
I'll take a look at some local diesel shops and see if they can rebuild from a core. I'll more seriously research Jasper engines and apparently their competitor is Reviva. Anyone know anything about them? I feel a little bit better going on the remanufactured side vs. used. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2016 : 08:44:37 AM
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In a perfect world, you'd just let the bus go...but since you are here asking about this, I'd guess that you (just like us) don't live in a perfect world. I'm all for fixing a bus with a reman if it's otherwise reasonably serviceable.
I went Jasper on my last two. One was a 5.9 ISB, the other a CAT C7. Two formats available, complete (think long block with oil pan sometimes) and running complete (just what it sounds like).
ZERO problems with the ISB, oil leak issue with the C7, though there is some debate as to who was at fault for that one exactly.
If you get the running complete, it'll be dyno'ed. You'll get some core credit, but you'll have to pay a pre-set amount for that hole in the block for that particular unit. I want to say it was $1200, but don't hold me to that because it's been a few years. Sales will give you that info.
2 year warranty on overall engine, 1 year on things like injectors, pump. turbo, water pump. Again...sales can get you that info. Have engine serial number ready when you call. |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 03/23/2016 : 09:45:05 AM
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We had 2 remans installed at WWWilliams that a Riviva and have had nothing but trouble from parts failures to Riviva not wanting to honor their warranty. Granted these were VT365's but the last one took 9 months and the board's lawyers to get the engine replaced.
We had an injector explode on a reman that was 8 months old and the Techs at Williams looked at and determined that it may have been dropped during the reman process and filed a claim. Reviva wanted the injector so they sent it to them. Reviva then said, no it had to be fuel contamination so a fuel sample was sent to a third party and came back clean. Reviva insisted it was water in the fuel and would not pay. That's when the lawyers go involved. End of story we got the engine replaced for free as it should have been in accordance with their warranty. 2 years parts and labor, 1 year injector and fuel system a reman run ready engine. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Bus John
New Member
8 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2016 : 10:32:03 AM
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| Good info guys. I'll steer clear of Reviva per some of these stories. I suppose things go wrong with any reman engine but if they don't stand by the warranty I don't want any part of them. I called Jasper yesterday and they seem to have a great warranty. I definitely get the warm and fuzzys dealing with a large company like them vs. a smaller outfit. You just never know what will happen if there is a warranty issue. Thanks again everyone for the info! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2016 : 08:37:17 AM
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Update to my earlier post:
Last night my new Jasper C7 reman let go. Driver said it started knocking so he shut it off (one of the better drivers, retired bus mechanic). We pulled it back and started it...a real loud knock that sounds like it's up top and a noticeable miss.
This morning we checked some things. Coolant tank dry, oil way overfull, cracked the drain plug open just a hair and antifreze came out. I guess it wanted to be like a DT466?
In any event, I'll let you know how warranty is in the coming weeks. It's on the hook to the shop that did the job for us...we're just too busy to attempt it right now. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2016 : 1:42:25 PM
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| Thanks for the update. I'm interested in what you're doing. Keep us posted |
Bryan |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2016 : 1:47:37 PM
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| Oh noooo I have 2 Jasper VT365!!!!!! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/10/2016 : 3:09:13 PM
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| I'm not mad that it happened, really. Sh** happens. Its what happens NOW that interests me. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2016 : 05:34:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
I'm not mad that it happened, really. Sh** happens. Its what happens NOW that interests me.
I agree with this statement! If you are mad at stuff like this, you're in the wrong business. What I hate is a design flaw that bites me all the time. The reason I dislike it so much is that engineers seem to think nothing they do is wrong. I would love to have an engineer tell me "boy that sure didn't work out the way we wanted. What we were trying to acheive was X, Y, & Z. If we had known this we sure wouldn't have done it that way. I'm sorry". LOL, I don't think that will ever happen!  |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2016 : 06:32:36 AM
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It would help if engineering would come to the field or have focus groups with people who live with these machines BEFORE making changes.
Back in 2002, Freightliner/Thomas invited several people down for a few days. We got to see Cat engine plant and Freightliner plant in SC, then Thomas in NC. More importantly, we sat in meetings about the FS65 and "something that's coming" (turned out to be C2) and hashed it out.
One major gripe was the fuel water seperarator location on FS65. Back against the firewall with hoses right in the way. Apparently we weren't the only ones who moved it out away from the wall to make life easier. I'm told that a week later it was changed on the production line, and I know that our next buses it was changed.
It's the little things like that, and the big things like why my T3's have exposed electrical connections under them with nothing to protect them from corrosion. Engineering degree does not equal all-knowing.
End soapbox speech and thanks for listening. |
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KnuckleBuster76
Active Member
45 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2016 : 07:20:40 AM
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| I agree! Best thing they could do as part of the design process is include a mechanic and an operator. Engineers get paid a pretty penny to design these things and most aren't mechanic friendly. Going forward, I've spoken to numerous engineers who BECAME engineers because they were mechanics who ran into issues with designs in the field. I, for one, hope this changes things. |
"Just... I dunno... Just fix it." |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/11/2016 : 11:14:58 AM
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| I went to trade school with a fellow who was also going into engineering. I haven't talked to him in the subsequent 28 years but I always imagined him making a real difference in design. REal nice guy, easy to talk to and had a good handle on common sense. Can't find him on FB so who knows, may have not even got into engineering after all. |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 06:43:03 AM
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#1 injector cup found to be leaking, all injectors removed, engine won't turn at all.
Oil pan removed, see bent rod and damage to cylinder wall where it hit. Game over. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 10:17:20 AM
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| Ouch!! |
Bryan |
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 11:53:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
#1 injector cup found to be leaking, all injectors removed, engine won't turn at all.
Oil pan removed, see bent rod and damage to cylinder wall where it hit. Game over.
Pics or it didn't happen LOL jk .... Man that totally blows!!! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/12/2016 : 2:33:37 PM
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| The truck shop sent me pics and they are saved at work. I'll post them tomorrow...it'll be fun! |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 10:20:42 AM
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| Sounded cool? LOL!! |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 12:38:12 PM
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| Hey, if you're going for total destruction you might as well enjoy the sound of it. |
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BigPapa
Advanced Member
215 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 1:16:32 PM
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| It's just bent a little bit. Probably could straighten it out in a vise. Might want to wrap a rag around it though. Wouldn't want to scratch it up in the vise. |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 05/13/2016 : 1:29:58 PM
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@BigPapa: "wrap a rag around it" lol. maybe use the auto body frame straightening rack?
theyres gotta be an engineering joke in here somewhere. maybe its designed that way? its a "spring type" connecting rod. helps to handle the stresses of higher compression ratios. :) |
-Ken- |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 05/18/2016 : 06:19:45 AM
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Update on the situation:
New engine being shipped out, it certainly looks like a defect in the workmanship or a part used, that end is covered.
Labor is a sore subject because Jasper only pays $60/hour which I would challenge you to find any reputable shop who will work for that. Top that off with only wanting to pay 30 hours plus the 6 hours already invested in running the diagnostics they wanted. 30 hours won't touch a front-engine transit engine swap.
Now, I knew going in the low labor rates from inside experience...but most people wouldn't until it's too late.
I'm not going to pass judgement on this ordeal just yet. I want to wait and see the end result. Nothing is paid out until the failed engine is returned and examined, and that is ok as long as there's no monkey business at that point in time. |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 05:22:35 AM
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I forgot to update this!
2nd reman delivered and installed. School starts this coming Wednesday so it'll go into service then.
Jasper didn't try to pass the buck after the fact...they paid the claim. Like I mentioned up above it was a much lower than realistic shop rate and about half of the hours the job would actually take in an FE bus. We are about about $4000...would be much less if it were a conventional and/or we did the job in house.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 06:27:56 AM
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| 4 grand total for the job? |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 07:55:07 AM
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| No, that would be about how much out-of-pocket expense (unreimbursed) we have over the failure. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 3:26:03 PM
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| WOW!! The one I just got back from my machine shop will probably only be around the 5k mark. I guess I do things on the cheap! lol |
Bryan |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 08/12/2016 : 6:05:59 PM
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| I'm looking at a Freightliner with cylinder 5 damaged right now (newer reman but it ingested something)...may try your approach if I can get the bus for the right money. |
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Topic |
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Reman or Used Engines?
