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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 07/24/2015 :  2:10:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I guess the heat is getting to me. I have an IC in here that is 5 years old and I am already painting the black around the 8-ways. Anyway, I went to remove the visor and the amber & red lenses and the bottom bolts are rusted so bad that I stripped the phillips out of them (I don't live in the rust belt either). So, I am trying to drill them out to get the lense off. At any rate, the screw is so hard I can't drill the darn things with a cobalt bit. ARGH

So, I am going to take a unscientific poll. How many people on here lease their buses? And of them how many lease for 5 years or less? Just a theory I'm working on.

wilbur560
New Member

2 Posts

Posted - 07/25/2015 :  08:00:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit wilbur560's Homepage  Reply with Quote
In my district, we have combination of leased buses and driver owned buses. All of the leased buses are BB and most of the driver owned are also. We generally lease them for 5 years or less.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 07/26/2015 :  04:33:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They way the quality is on ALL THREE of the bus makers, you might be onto something. Of course I had yet another incident of a certain almost-new T3 break down on a trip yesterday, thank to the high quality wiring job it has...so I might be a bit bias right now.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  06:11:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yeah, the quality is what I'm driving at. And, yes, I see it on the BB buses too. Although, I see better quality in the Bird than the ICs. I don't have newer Thomas, so I'm not qualified to speak on those. If I had my way I wouldn't be unqualified to speak about Thomas or IC. I just get such good service with BB that even if there is some problems I can get through them with the team at Central States. I'm not really badmouthing the other dealers, they just don't have the organization that Bird does in StL. I really like the folks at the other dealers too. In this part of the world, people are generally very nice and want to help. Just our culture I guess. (That looks to be changing in our culture as well, but that is another topic for another forum, lol)

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  06:34:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the tough ones I usually just save the agony and bust the lens to service the rear eight way lights around here, chances are the base is rusted and not worth saving either.
All brands have their pluses and minuses. On a Thomas C2 the lens is flush with the body and you service the bulbs from inside the bus.

So far we don't lease. Neighbor district leases theirs for three years and then have an option to buy or turn them in and start over. The last two buses we bought were their 3 year used off lease buses.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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dsalinas1939
Top Member

USA
1316 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  06:57:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we own all ower buses and quaility is a big problem on all but i have fewer problems with the BB in my opinion the are the better of the group but still not great i have brand new c2,s 6 of them with issues first and formost the have bad lean to driver side and there tearin off mud flaps and the ac systems are put in poorly constant wiring problems and condensation draining on driver its just sad how u spend 90k and they are put together so bad meaning all the buses o and they come draggin the right rear mud flap right when there delivered

Edited by - dsalinas1939 on 07/27/2015 06:58:47 AM
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dsalinas1939
Top Member

USA
1316 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  07:00:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
[quote]Originally posted by dsalinas1939

we own all ower buses and quaility is a big problem on all but i have fewer problems with the BB in my opinion the are the better of the group but still not great i have brand new c2,s 6 of them with issues first and formost the have bad lean to driver side and there tearin off mud flaps and the ac systems are put in poorly constant wiring problems and condensation draining on driver its just sad how u spend 90k and they are put together so bad meaning all the buses o and they come draggin the left rear mud flap right when there delivered
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  08:34:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm going to say this for anyone who may not have thought about it, because it took me a few years...

Save yourself a lot of cussing and smashed fingers next time and reinstall your lights with stainless screws. I'm even to the point of changing them all out on new buses when they arrive because of my all-new 60-year replacement cycle. Yes, one bus every other year for a fleet of 31...I'm sure THAT will work.

Unless you are only keeping a bus for 5 years...you KNOW there WILL be a next time!
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 07/27/2015 :  10:21:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

I'm going to say this for anyone who may not have thought about it, because it took me a few years...

Save yourself a lot of cussing and smashed fingers next time and reinstall your lights with stainless screws. I'm even to the point of changing them all out on new buses when they arrive because of my all-new 60-year replacement cycle. Yes, one bus every other year for a fleet of 31...I'm sure THAT will work.

Unless you are only keeping a bus for 5 years...you KNOW there WILL be a next time!



lol, you sound like me. I have a fleet a little over half your size and I've had to skip a year every now and then. I hope things get better soon. I am putting them back on with stainless, by the way. I guess I'm cursed with knowing that years ago we didn't have this problem. I'm not sure how to remedy it either. I am partial to BB but they have "dumbed down" too. All three are trying to get the lowest bid. I don't even know for sure, if I did identify which company had the longest life & less cost of ownership, if I could convince my board of the extra money or if we could even set it up so it wasn't against our state law. (you have to take the lowest bid). Until then I'll keep plugging away and fix them so they are safe for our kiddos. I do love my job.

Bryan
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 07/28/2015 :  05:25:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We own all of ours and we own BB, IC, and Thomas. 86 in total. We have 2 shops because our county is split in half by Ft. Stewart. I have 56 here and they have 30 at the other end. So will only post my 56 information although the other shop is about the same. BB has them beat hands down in reliability and costs. I have a pretty good data base to prove that. Most of the BB's are older mind you but they are out performing IC. We are running an 88 and 89 TC2000 as school shuttles. Our spares are 96 and older TC2000's. We are running 15 2005 and older BB, all but 2 are TC2000,s.

Our IC fleet started in 2006 and we have 8 2006's and 2007's with VT365's all the motors have been replaced. Our 2012-2015 fleet are all IC's. They all smoke, windows won't stay up or close, screws fall out of the ceiling and they have ALL been back and fourth to the dealer for one thing or another. Just plain junk.

We were able to buy BB's for 2016, so far we have one but 4 more in the pipeline as soon as the board ok's them. Now I was able to get BB's with the higher bid because of the documents issues with the IC's and projected cost of ownership. Also when we did our bid IC, and Thomas COULD NOT make certain specs we wanted.There are many things standard on BB that you have to pay extra for on IC and Thomas, so once you do that the price came out within $1500 of each other. Here in Georgia the 3 manufactures bids info is on the Georgia DOE website and you go in and build you own bus the print out the sheets with the specs and price.

The key to being able to buy the bus you want, even is it cost more is have you maintenance data complete. You can do it with pen and paper but it takes longer. I have been using Versa trans with Fleet vision for a year now and I have input old work orders into it so I came up with a good 4 years worth of data and for us numbers don't lie and we got we wanted.

US Army retired CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/03/2015 :  05:22:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That's some good information Ron. It's hard to justify a program like Versa Trans in a fleet of 17. Used to a school board would take your advise and purchase what you thought was a good product. Anymore, with new laws state wide, you can't do that. Makes a guy have to work a lot harder than he used to to get the information he already knows. Such is life, I guess. lol

Bryan
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C24U
Advanced Member

United States
220 Posts

Posted - 08/04/2015 :  12:22:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ron, what specs did you ask for that IC and Thomas could not meet?
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2015 :  07:12:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
12,000 LB FRT AXLE.16.5 x 5" front shoes. Plus many standard features on BlueBird cost more on IC. 240 Alternator amps, AD-IP Air dryer, Rear heater, 11R22.5 tires,

From the spec sheets I look at IC and Thomas Don't offer a $12,000 front axle. Yeah a 12K front axle is big for a bus, but we have found you don't have to change king pins as often on them.

I have our last BB spec sheet in Excel but don't know how to attach it here.

US Army retired CMBT
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dsalinas1939
Top Member

USA
1316 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2015 :  10:31:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
hey ron how often are u changin king pins i have about 6 ic buses that are bout 7 years old and have only had to change on set of king pins we greese them religously and they are as tight now as they where new just curious and by no means am i defending IC there junk
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2015 :  10:43:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Im going to throw my 2 cents in on this. We have mostly IC in our fleet. The only 2 BB are 09 Visions and i think they are worse then the IC. They seem to break down just as much but it is always much harder to diagnose and repair. While IC is garbage it is the finding of our district that the IC is the best of the worst.
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dsalinas1939
Top Member

USA
1316 Posts

Posted - 08/05/2015 :  10:51:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we have three 2010 vision and one broke down last year with a stuck egr valve cause dpf to come apart but other then that the other two have never broke down or had major problems so i guess we got lucky but i still think the BB is the better of the junk IMO
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2015 :  05:26:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree that they are all putting out junk. I long for the days when you work out the bugs for the first couple months and they run or 6 or 8 years without any problems beyond the normal belts, brakes, oil change & tires. I still have several Chevy chassis under BBs and they are the most reliable. I must admit the last two 2010 ICs I got have held up pretty good. Still don't like the dash and student windows.

Just a thought on IC here, did Ward have trouble with windows? I never had one of their buses so I don't know but I know IC is a Ward body. All I knew from the old days was BB was the best and Carpenter was the worst. lol

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2015 :  07:03:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

I agree that they are all putting out junk. I long for the days when you work out the bugs for the first couple months and they run or 6 or 8 years without any problems beyond the normal belts, brakes, oil change & tires. I still have several Chevy chassis under BBs and they are the most reliable. I must admit the last two 2010 ICs I got have held up pretty good. Still don't like the dash and student windows.

Just a thought on IC here, did Ward have trouble with windows? I never had one of their buses so I don't know but I know IC is a Ward body. All I knew from the old days was BB was the best and Carpenter was the worst. lol



As I recall the Ward passenger windows and latches were pretty trouble free.
Buying Ward got International into the bus body business but the current IC bus is not built in the old Ward plant and little about the current IC product is anything like a Ward/Amtran.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 08/07/2015 07:14:17 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2015 :  07:31:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the info, Fastback. I wasn't sure how that was, not that it really matters. I understand why the three are building sub par products I just wish it were different. The real problem is going to be if they don't correct the problem our illustrious government will think they need to be involved even more than they are.
You know what would be neat is if these companies would ask this group what their problems are with the buses they know. Now there would be a think thank! lol

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/07/2015 :  10:08:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It is possible to spec new buses with some non standard components that may give more satisfactory service in your location. For example, you can order IC buses with rivets in the ceiling instead of screws.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2015 :  07:17:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What about a more robust dash?

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2015 :  11:41:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
They added bracing to the dash...pretty solid now (or so it would seem). It only took ten years.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2015 :  2:07:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would be interesting to see how it acts on my old rough roads. I'd love to see some kind of study on the condition of the roads that school buses run on. I'll bet it is well over 50% that is non-paved and in need of pothole repair.

Bryan
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 08/10/2015 :  3:58:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I deliver buses all over my state. Sometimes I'll get into a bus and start going down the road, and wonder why it rattles so bad. Then I get to the area where its used, and I think "I'd rattle too if I had to drive over these horrible roads."

Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 08/11/2015 :  06:46:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Specing rear air ride suspension may help extend the life of bus components on rough roads, dashes, window latches, etc. may benefit.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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