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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  06:52:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are going to give the bus referenced a number as everyone is becoming very familiar with my IH busses.

Bus #7 (07 CE300 W/DT466E) had been in the shop with a ruptured HBP reservoir and a warm no start. HBP reservoir was replaced and oil was changed on bus while in the shop. I felt my "no start while warm" was coming back to due to mileage from last o/c and the early spring heat. If you remember from my last thread "Brake issue causing no start?" the bus started the next morning no problem.

Fast forward a couple weeks, brakes are repaired (proud of myself for that one!!) oil is changed and bus has made a couple routes with no brake or starting issues. Yesterday on PM route I dropped off a student, reached to put bus in gear and release brakes and just got into the throttle and bus died like I switched the ignition off. Restart attempt was just a free spinning engine with very little engine oil pressure made on gauge while attempts to start were made. Pulled it to shop and left it in the lot overnight. Went out this morning early and bus started second revolution like it had no problem!! UGH!!!

I am leaning toward a faulty IPR valve or heat soaked solenoid on the same. The wiring to the IPR might be iffy but I feel it wouldn't "fix itself" overnight just sitting.

I pulled codes using cluster method and got these:

SPN: 51 FMI: 2
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 168 FMI: 4
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 597 FMI: 2
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 2659 FMI: 1
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 3242 FMI: 1
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 8151 FMI: 5
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 8331 FMI: 7
OC: NA SA:

SPN: 597 FMI: 2
OC: 1 SA: 33

SPN: 2011 FMI: 9
OC: 2 SA: 33

Any of the above throw a red flag so to speak for a hot no start or random engine shutdown??

Might anyone be kind enough to give a list of what the Failure Mode Indicator (FMI) codes pertain to? Source Address (SA) also possibly.

MANY THANKS AS ALWAYS FOR ANY HELP OR IDEA YALL MAY HAVE!!

CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  08:11:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update.....

Bus started fine early this am around 6:30. I let bus run less than 10 minutes that time.

After my morning route (8ish) I went out to start bus and drive in the shop and all it would do was turn over... Ugh!!

I am leaning toward a bad ICP sensor or maybe an electrical issue.

More to come as I dive into this thing..

Edited by - CISDbusman on 04/17/2015 12:06:16 PM
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  08:44:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i had a similar hard/no start issue with a 2000 dt466e. started in the morning, went on route, got to school and dropped kids off. and then it wouldn't restart. it would do this along with intermittent power loss while driving. the engine would shut down for a half second every few minutes. after pulling my hair out for a while checking oil pressure and ICP etc, i finally narrowed it down to ecm power relays in the rear run box. relays were getting weak and would fail when they got hot. along with replacing the relays i also replaced their plugs in favor of the sealed large pin style type. never had the problem again. hope this helps.

-Ken-
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  08:51:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs

i had a similar hard/no start issue with a 2000 dt466e. started in the morning, went on route, got to school and dropped kids off. and then it wouldn't restart. it would do this along with intermittent power loss while driving. the engine would shut down for a half second every few minutes. after pulling my hair out for a while checking oil pressure and ICP etc, i finally narrowed it down to ecm power relays in the rear run box. relays were getting weak and would fail when they got hot. along with replacing the relays i also replaced their plugs in favor of the sealed large pin style type. never had the problem again. hope this helps.



Where might this "rear runbox" you speak of be? I could see my issue being a relay or some wiring somewhere now.

THANKS for the reply and the info!!!
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  09:00:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
mine was a 2000 rear engine amtran. i couldnt tell you where they are on your model. but i remember reading this a while back...

http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37801

not really the same problem but all sending links and info on component locations.

-Ken-

Edited by - krmvcs on 04/17/2015 09:03:25 AM
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Winn10
Active Member

49 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  12:56:40 PM  Show Profile  Visit Winn10's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Our CE idm & ecm relays are on the firewall.
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Wolfavenger90
New Member

1 Posts

Posted - 04/17/2015 :  2:13:26 PM  Show Profile  Visit Wolfavenger90's Homepage  Reply with Quote
There are 2 fuses in the battery box that have a tendency to go bad. there is also 2 relays on the firewall right above the valve cover that i have had issues with.

Along the lines of the IPR, if it is original ( has connector pointed away at a 90* angle) then i would replace it with the new updated IPR (connector is straight out the end.

I would also check the injection oil pressure when it wont run.

One last thought is the Cam sensor on the front cover above the water pump. if that is cutting out when its hot then it will stall and not run.
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earl1412
Senior Member

101 Posts

Posted - 04/19/2015 :  12:22:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As Wolfavenger90 stated the fuses at the battery box are for the ECM and IDM, there also is a fuse for the transmission ecm. I have had issues in the past with this system IC uses. I had this happen just last week.
Please check the fuse holders for loose female terminals, and remove the covering at the battery terminal where the 3 10 gauge wire are crimped. I have found that soldering the wires helps reduce the intermittent dropping out of power.
Also strip the kevlar from the harness starting at the battery to the connectors near the starter, to see if there is any corrosion or breaks caused by the protective wrap. (this can be done easier if you disconnect the harness at both ends and work on your bench)
The above has been done to numerous IC buses I have from 2004 to 2008 with good success.
earl
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 04/22/2015 :  11:25:32 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just today we had a bus that would randomly die, and not restart. It was the fuse holders, 3 new holders from napa and some cut and splice and no more problem. cost about 15 bucks.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  08:46:41 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Some of your codes I could find.. pertained to ABS or Brake functions, some of them IDK, can't find a listing for them... the 597/FMI2 code is brake switch inputs do not match.. the 2011/FMI9 is abs data link comm failure, as far as Failure Mode Indicators there are plus 20 of them, around 19 different Source Addresses... If you have access to IC website look for SO8327 manual believe that covers that year of bus, if not send me an E=mail I can send you copies of the pages I have for FMI and SA info..
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  09:10:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfavenger90

There are 2 fuses in the battery box that have a tendency to go bad. there is also 2 relays on the firewall right above the valve cover that i have had issues with.

Along the lines of the IPR, if it is original ( has connector pointed away at a 90* angle) then i would replace it with the new updated IPR (connector is straight out the end.

I would also check the injection oil pressure when it wont run.

One last thought is the Cam sensor on the front cover above the water pump. if that is cutting out when its hot then it will stall and not run.



Battery box fuses were the first thing I checked as I have read of numerous issues with those. All good.

IPR is the older one as mentioned with the 90* connector. New one in hand is the straight connector so its going in regardless. Ordered socket yesterday.

Injector oil pressure check is next on my list. Rounding up gauge and fittings for this currently.

Should I put the cam sensor in also "just cause"? I know the ones on the older IH V8's would leave ya stranded.

Thanks for the reply!!!
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 04/23/2015 :  09:13:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert

Some of your codes I could find.. pertained to ABS or Brake functions, some of them IDK, can't find a listing for them... the 597/FMI2 code is brake switch inputs do not match.. the 2011/FMI9 is abs data link comm failure, as far as Failure Mode Indicators there are plus 20 of them, around 19 different Source Addresses... If you have access to IC website look for SO8327 manual believe that covers that year of bus, if not send me an E=mail I can send you copies of the pages I have for FMI and SA info..



I figure most would be brake or emissions related. I'll shoot you and e-mail.

MANY THANKS FOR THE INFO!!
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2015 :  1:06:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I got to wrench on the bus today. Mowed and weedeated all last week. UGH!!

I made me up some test fittings to connect shop air to the hp oil fitting in the head. Hooked up air hose (150 psi) and it sounded like a toilet was filling under the valve cover. Pulled the dipstick and about blew my hat off. Lots of air bypassing under the valve cover.

Removed the cover and didn't see any bubbles around the injectors so I suspected the "pucks" were leaking. Remove HP oil rail (thats a chunk of cast iron!!) and two of the six "pucks" were missing about 1/3rd of the o-ring and backup ring. A couple of the others had smooshed backup rings that were close to failing.

Installed new "pucks" and new ICP and lubed everything up and reinstalled HP oil rail. Hooked up my air hose to again and had hissing at the #2 puck. I figured I might have pinched an o-ring upon reinstall but all looked good after removal the second time.

I wondered how the "puck" sealed the "poppet" in the center so I took one apart.

Now I am thinking I had a o-ring that didn't go "home" in the injector and it unseated the "poppet" causing air to leak past the o-ring the poppet seals to. (still scratching my head on their design!)

Has anyone had this happen?? Any tips on reinstalling the HP oil rail to prevent unseating the poppet??

I am letting the HPOR sit unbolted while I drive my PM route so that maybe the belleville spring inside the "puck" will make it fully seat this time.

I don't want to button this thing up and wash out an inner o-ring and have to go back into it again.

Thanks for listening!!!

Edited by - CISDbusman on 05/04/2015 2:43:50 PM
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mysterytrain
Active Member

34 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2015 :  6:36:03 PM  Show Profile  Visit mysterytrain's Homepage  Reply with Quote
in dealing with the pucks i have only had success with installing them and running up to operating temp and letting it sit until the next day. if i just start it and let it run a few minutes and shut it off without fail will have one that will not seal. i have had this happen 3 times now, i just start it and drive until operating temp for 10 plus minutes and shut it off and walk away for a day. the only problems i have seen with the high pressure rail so far is every one has had a pinched main o-ring on the head from the factory. first time i had to replace an injector i just replaced the o rings, what a mess, now at $22 ea for a puck i just put in a set.
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2015 :  07:11:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mysterytrain

in dealing with the pucks i have only had success with installing them and running up to operating temp and letting it sit until the next day. if i just start it and let it run a few minutes and shut it off without fail will have one that will not seal. i have had this happen 3 times now, i just start it and drive until operating temp for 10 plus minutes and shut it off and walk away for a day. the only problems i have seen with the high pressure rail so far is every one has had a pinched main o-ring on the head from the factory. first time i had to replace an injector i just replaced the o rings, what a mess, now at $22 ea for a puck i just put in a set.



Let HPOR just sit in place over night hoping the weight of the HPOR and the very weak belville spring would seat the poppet down fully in the injector. I'm no Mechanical Engineer but the "puck" design is horrible at best!! If I were designing them I would put the o-ring with a backup ring in a machined groove on the "poppet" and not in a recess in the "puck" bore. Just a little misalignment and you unseat one side of the "poppet". Ugh!!

Anyone have a resealed HPOR go 100% leak free using air pressure? I'm hoping that a few cooling and heating cycles and the added pressure of the HPOP and any added sealing the addition of engine oil will make will fully seat this thing.

Bad design!!!!

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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2015 :  04:55:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update:
I replaced all the "pucks" and the ICP sensor then had a non seal issue with one of the new pucks. I pushed the HPOR every which way to try and seal the #2 puck with no luck. Next I decided to try it with oil in the HPOR. I made a reservoir out of PVC and some air hose fittings and pushed some oil into the HPOR with REGULATED air. The #2 puck still bubbled and girggled air and oil out from around it. After the second time hooking up the air hose to the reservoir the leak stopped. I figure it took a little hydraulic shocking to fully seat the "poppet" in that puck.

I buttoned it all up and fixed the A/C hose that I made leak and let the bus sit outside till it got up to operating temp then shut it off. It restarted as if there had never been a warm start issue.

I used it on my PM route yesterday and it did wonderful. It even restarted after the route.

So now after thinking I had electrical gremlins I am leaning toward the leaking pucks as the sole culprit. Time and miles will tell. Its amazing what a couple dollars worth of O-rings will do to a 80 thousand dollar bus.......

Someone on here mentioned that they change "pucks" regardless at or around the 85k mark and that has stuck in my head. I now feel this should be the gospel for these engines.

This busses sister is still dead in the parking lot waiting on a stall with the exact same symptoms and my money is on it having bad pucks also!!!!

Thanks yall for your thoughts and help!!
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2015 :  07:36:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Update:

Drove the bus on routes last week. The exhaust "very hot symbol" started flashing on one pm route. Drove bus back to storage building and got to do my FIRST parked regen ever!! Guess the planets all aligned and it let me do it. After about 30 minutes of elevated engine rpm and blueish/white smoke the bus idled back down but lights were still on. Drove on route the next am and got the amber triangle and a buzzer for just a second and all the lights on dash went out.

Took the bus on a 430 mile road trip and only got a exhaust light flash at stop lights while in Dallas.

Bus seems to not be holding the lube oil in the engine for very long now as it has a extended crank time before the lube oil pressure comes up and the bus starts.

It will start now which is nice but I need to figure out the loss of lube oil after sitting for a couple hours now though.

Someone mentioned a check valve above the oil filter so I may try that next.

Thanks again for everyone's help with the repair of this bus.
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