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 Extened crank times, 05 DT466E
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2015 :  10:21:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Alrighty, time to ask the community. I have 11 05 DT466E buses in my fleet. Out of the 11, only 4 like to start. The rest have extended cranking times. sometimes it takes up to 45 seconds of cranking to get them started, and the cold only makes it worse.

I picked the worst one and have been experimenting on it. I have replaced fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, injectors, oil rail pucks, IPR, ICP sensor, Cam and Crank Sensors, Oil pump, intake heater relays. Dead head HPOP and get 5000 PSI. After sitting over weekend still has oil above HPOP pick-up. Intake heaters are working and get hot.

When cranking it has 60 PSI fuel pressure right away, Injection pressure is an requested so around 900-1100. it takes about 15 second and then it starts to build oil pressure.

If i use some eather they fire right up and stay running. IF restarted within a few hours they restart normal. I don't like to eather start my engines so i want to try and find the cause.

If you have any ideas i would love to hear them, thanks.

aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member

538 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2015 :  12:31:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this will apply to this engine or not, but we were told that on our MaxxForce 466 engines, there is a machining flaw in the timing cover that causes oil to leak down and that is a cause of extended cranking. Yours may be too old for this to apply to though.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2015 :  12:37:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I assume you have seen this TSI TSI–04–12–30;

Subject: Cold Weather Startability Guidelines for 2004 Emission DT 466 Engines
Engine Family: DT 466
DESCRIPTION
In order to meet the 2004 EPA emission regulations many changes to all makes of diesel engines had to be
made. These changes were various and included EGR valves, combustion chamber changes as well as
others. As a result of these changes the engines do not start as well in cold weather. These characteristics
are common with all diesel engines and require manufacturers to approach cold engine starting differently
than in the past.
The following guidelines will result in superior cold weather starting.
SERVICE PROCEDURE
NOTE – It is normal for cranking time to be longer on 2004 DT 466 engines than previous models if not
equipped with grid heater and/or block heater.
NOTE – During cranking do not disengage the starter until the engine has reached 500 RPM.
NOTE – Ensure the engine ECM is at calibration level PL01 or higher

It goes on to list the recommendations at various temps, the zero and below recs are: 5W-40 motor oil and grid, block and oil pan heaters

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 02/03/2015 12:42:08 PM
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2015 :  2:14:21 PM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Some of the sister buses start great in the cold. let the gird heater run 1 cycle then bam, starts great. others after 4 cycles still barley start. we run T5 synthetic 10W-40. we also plug all busses in.

If this was just cold weather i would understand but it happens in the summer as well, just not quite as bad.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  05:00:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wonder how the cranking speeds compare between the good starting ones versus the slow starting ones?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  06:11:27 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I have some(4 of 14)2005 and 2006 buses that do the similar and have since 2008 or 9...longer crank times to get them fired warm or cold weather makes a slight difference but not much.... when first one started doing this it was just out of warranty (over mileage limit at 3-4 years of age) and after a few trips to IH dealer for testing, their only recomendation was that engine needed overhauled and had low compression...

These buses will generally start after 10-15 seconds of cranking in warm weather, and slighly longer in cold weather with two to three grid heater cycles and block heater plugged in for overnight warmth 20-25 seconds... I can always get them up and running, biggest issue I have is when a driver freaks out because bus doesn't instantly fire up and have to hold key on longer to get bus running.....

I can say we don't have any that take 45 seconds of cranking to get running, although sometimes it seems like that long when cranking them... I wasn't convinced when dealer told me engine was worn out and needed overhauled, as a sister bus with same miles and maintenance would start IMO normally.... so I did same as you and experimented on the hard starting one... ck'd/replaced many sensors,parts and pressures with service maxx, HP oil for instance comes up well above what is needed for starting psi within 3-4 seconds but engine don't fire for 15-20... installed new stater changed out main battery cables, ck'd, replaced batteries and cleaned connections... never made any difference on startability... still runs routes today, stills starts up as long as you crank for 15-20 seconds till engine fires up...and except on the test bus haven't had to replace starters yet ..

Maybe mine are not as severe as yours? and if there is a answer to this... I'd like to hear it if for no other reason than to settle my curiousity.

Edited by - slippert on 02/04/2015 12:15:15 PM
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  07:47:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have 2 of the 2005-2006 DT466s, when cold, long cranking times then an unnerving high speed rev up and black smoke till they settle down are the norm. They are one of the reasons we switched to 5W-40 motor oil, both to make me feel better about the cold high speed rev up and to help with the cold cranking speed.
When I asked, a rep told me that part of meeting the 2004 emission standards involved lowering the compression ratio. So the cold starting strategy with these engines involves injecting fuel to fill the piston bowls to temporally increase compression and that is what causes the extended cranking, high speed rev and black smoke.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  08:53:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well we all seem to have similar problems. If I ever find a cause or something that helps ill be sure to share it.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  12:39:41 PM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

We have 2 of the 2005-2006 DT466s, when cold, long cranking times then an unnerving high speed rev up and black smoke till they settle down are the norm. They are one of the reasons we switched to 5W-40 motor oil, both to make me feel better about the cold high speed rev up and to help with the cold cranking speed.
When I asked, a rep told me that part of meeting the 2004 emission standards involved lowering the compression ratio. So the cold starting strategy with these engines involves injecting fuel to fill the piston bowls to temporally increase compression and that is what causes the extended cranking, high speed rev and black smoke.



This makes sense given the way those year engines do fireup, rev up and smoke..., just makes me wonder what changed.. to make say 20 percent of mine start more difficult.. and OP sounds like he has closer to 60 plus percent of his that are harder to start...

1)Did something malfuntion in the ECM causing lack of extra fuel to raise compression at startup? or?

2)I wonder why dealer couldn't find any issues when mine were ck'd if this was the case....

Looking back at the buses I have this problem with, All 14 have had a bunch of common parts replaced, same maintenance done on each of them, still something happened to 4 out of 14 to take longer cranking to get running...

11 buses same engine, 3-5 seconds crank time...fireup, smoke black, and rev high enough to send chills down a mechanics spine,

4 same year , anywhere from 10-15 up to around 30 seconds crank time (depending on outside temp) , fireup,smoke and revup.... the only difference is the amount of time you have to engage the starter...

Edited by - slippert on 02/04/2015 12:42:36 PM
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
853 Posts

Posted - 02/04/2015 :  1:56:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A couple of things come to mind: Battery voltage while cranking and ECM "On" threshold. When you're changing out the ICP and IPR are you using the 2501107C1 repair harness? Do you have ServiceMaxx and the ability to take a long crank cold snapshot? If you do and open a case file you might get some good assistance. You can also compare the snapshot data points on the best bus with the worst bus...
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
558 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2015 :  03:56:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have problems with our 2 buses and 2 dump trucks of this vintage. They are the only vehicles in the fleet that are plugged in to a block heater every night when cold. That works! Programming did little.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2015 :  06:44:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

"NOTE – During cranking do not disengage the starter until the engine has reached 500 RPM."

Reaching 500 cranking rpm would seem to be quite a feat at 0 degrees Fahrenheit without everything being right. I wonder how the cold cranking speeds between the buses that are slow to start and the ones that start reasonably quickly compare?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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mysterytrain
Active Member

34 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2015 :  10:02:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit mysterytrain's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had that on one of mine an 07 pre-maxx force, it was the connector at the ipr. also check the fuse in the batt box if it is not tight you will have an injector problem with low voltage.
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mhernandez73
Senior Member

124 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2015 :  06:00:08 AM  Show Profile  Visit mhernandez73's Homepage  Reply with Quote
is there a TSB on this maxforce starting issue were starting to see more of this from our maxforce DT
quote:
Originally posted by aaronwilmoth80911

Not sure if this will apply to this engine or not, but we were told that on our MaxxForce 466 engines, there is a machining flaw in the timing cover that causes oil to leak down and that is a cause of extended cranking. Yours may be too old for this to apply to though.

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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 02/06/2015 :  1:28:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When replacing the IPR i always check the harness adn repair if needed. All of the buses cranks about the same speed. around 300 RPM.
once they get running they are fine so i done suspect a wiring issue. I have also replaced batteries and cables. From the sounds of it, its just a quark of this engine. Hopefully I can replace them in the next 10 years.

I have servicemaxx but thought that snapshots were for the dealer. im not sure how to veiw them myself.
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2015 :  11:03:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just an update. I had one bus that got to the point even when inside the garage overnight it required ether to start. once running it ran beautifully and restarted fine all day. After loads of parts it went to the dealer. They found that the front gear had slipped timing by 10*. They replace the gears and that helped it run even better but still not start.

In the end they say it is caused by slightly low compression on all 6 cylinders and that once its running and warm the compression comes up. So I will be rebuilding it this summer and see how it runs after but its an idea i wanted to pass to everyone else with similar problems.
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valleybusman
Top Member

USA
798 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2015 :  4:10:42 PM  Show Profile  Send valleybusman an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I have one of those . One driver will run the starter for a few seconds . Shut off run the starter again for a few seconds . Shut off and then try to start and starts right up . Not sure why
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