| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
 Posted - 11/07/2014 : 06:09:44 AM
|
Had a BB propane demo at the shop yesterday.
Pretty impressive. We will still stick with diesel for now though.
My newest BB is a 2003.
Any pros cons versus IC's conventional?
A few things I noticed about the BB.
No one piece floor.
Narrower entrance door.
External hinges.
Hood opens "heavier" than the IC.
Two piece windshield.
|
|
|
JoeHEB1
Advanced Member
498 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2014 : 06:17:04 AM
|
| We have 6 new BB with Cummins coming soon, they were supposed to bring us a propane one to check out but never did. I'd like to test drive one, but I think we'll stick with diesel for a long time. Were you able to drive it? The salesman told us it was like driving a car as far as take off power goes with the Roushe V10, supposedly they have no lag like a diesel. |
 |
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2014 : 06:33:21 AM
|
We did drive it.
It runs perfectly, it is so quiet that you hear ALL the road noise though.
We had two drivers test it out also, they really liked the bus overall.
If BB wins our Nov. 15th bid we will also get the Cummins.
I see nothing about the BB that would be a deal breaker.
The BB dealer has an excellent parts/service department. |
Edited by - second.flood on 11/11/2014 04:08:37 AM |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 11/07/2014 : 08:06:17 AM
|
| My observations have been that they build a good bus, but it has poor fit and finish in a lot of areas. Make sure you put some type of covering around the edges of the doorway to the electrical compartment (outside), otherwise the wires tend to wear through against that edge. |
|
|
|
Cal Mc
Advanced Member
303 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2014 : 8:32:09 PM
|
We have 2 BB propane buses we bought for a trial. Quiet, good heat , quick to warm up, lower exhaust fumes around the schools. The drivers love them.
However, no engine/exhaust brake + no preselect downshift = high brake wear. No local powertrain warranty coverage within 100 miles. If you can stand fuel economy at 5 MPG and winter propane prices. Last winter our propane price per gallon was higher than diesel.
One of the engines is using 3 quarts of oil between 5000 mile changes. |
|
|
|
bluebirdvision
Top Member
USA
1081 Posts |
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2014 : 06:43:11 AM
|
As you all know I really like the BB and the propane. I will agree with the fit and finish comment. However, I think with some route time you will find the BB holds up better than the IC. I only have two IC buses but the plastic dash is falling off of both of them. There are lots of rattles and the students windows fall down on one side or the other. BB has had some issues with the windows as well but it is getting better. I have been told that the new ones coming out have an all new window in them. Suppose to stay up like the old ones did years ago.
You can lock in a price for winter on the propane too. 5MPG at a buck fifty beats 8mpg at three fifty though.  |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 11/10/2014 : 3:48:14 PM
|
| I'll add this: unless your dealer does it during pre delivery, make sure you undercoat the seat and aisle trim bolts. For some reason, Bird undercoats, THEN installs the fasteners through the floor. |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2014 : 04:07:50 AM
|
I did notice that, the salesman said they do a second undercoating before delivery. The undercoating that was there seemed really thick and well applied.
I wonder why BB doesn't offer a one piece floor option?
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
I'll add this: unless your dealer does it during pre delivery, make sure you undercoat the seat and aisle trim bolts. For some reason, Bird undercoats, THEN installs the fasteners through the floor.
|
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 11/11/2014 : 3:00:34 PM
|
They do a second undercoat before delivery, but not before taking a bus on demo eh? Sure...heard that before.
I like the on piece floors in IC, does Thomas offer it? Does bird offer a delete aisle trim option? I'm about to bid, I'll find out if nobody here knows. |
|
|
|
JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2014 : 5:38:11 PM
|
| You need to check the "one-piece" floor. There is a 1/2" to 1" gap from the side wall to the edge of the floor covering. So you may eliminate aisle molding but you really don't eliminate a path for moisture and water to get into the plywood floor of the bus. Plus if seats are bolted through the floor, you still have perforations where moisture can wick up or flow down. |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2014 : 04:10:31 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by JRob
You need to check the "one-piece" floor. There is a 1/2" to 1" gap from the side wall to the edge of the floor covering. So you may eliminate aisle molding but you really don't eliminate a path for moisture and water to get into the plywood floor of the bus. Plus if seats are bolted through the floor, you still have perforations where moisture can wick up or flow down.
I like the one piece flooring. Drivers keep it cleaner, easier to sweep and no aluminum trim to replace.
Here in brine country the aluminum trim turns to goo and the screws rust to nothing in a few years of bad winters.
I really think water wicking up is the biggest issue, you are correct that one piece doesn't address that issue. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2014 : 05:09:10 AM
|
BB used to have a "delete trip" option but they don't anymore. Believe me I tried 7 ways from Sunday. Doesn't make sense to me, why would anyone want those trim pieces running down the isle? All you get is dirt and moisture build up.  |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2014 : 09:12:44 AM
|
Our state inspectors have a fetish for aisle trim. If they see a missing screw, they down the bus. You know how the screws won't stay put, so we have run a new screw less than an inch from my old screw only for them to fail us.
It is funny in a way, you can take a screw, push it into the hole with your finger, so its doing nothing, and they are happy. |
|
|
|
1983WardFord
Top Member
USA
1395 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2014 : 2:31:31 PM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
It is funny in a way, you can take a screw, push it into the hole with your finger, so its doing nothing, and they are happy.
...and you can do that with them standing right in front of you! |
Due to the current economic condition, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice. |
|
|
|
Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2014 : 3:24:04 PM
|
| Exactly....and it makes them happy. Bald tire? No problem... Just make sure the trim has a screw in it. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/14/2014 : 05:28:09 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Exactly....and it makes them happy. Bald tire? No problem... Just make sure the trim has a screw in it.
Bureaucrats in action! Trying to justify their job. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2014 : 05:23:24 AM
|
It looks like we will be getting BB.
Propane was a $7000 upcharge.
While interested, admin not remotely ready to take the plunge. Fine by me. |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2014 : 05:30:56 AM
|
| Two BB stock units meeting most specs is $6700 cheaper including trades. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/18/2014 : 2:01:42 PM
|
| I think you'll like them. Were the stock units on the lot or will they be built? |
Bryan |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2014 : 03:53:57 AM
|
| Stock units. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2014 : 10:02:13 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
Stock units.
I know my dealer has told me that "stock unit" means that it is the ones they stock but they also occasionally sell them before they are made. |
Bryan |
|
|
|
second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2014 : 10:11:31 AM
|
I see Bryan,
They are not "in stock" at the dealer. They are expected early December.
Is Cardinal your dealer? |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2014 : 2:42:39 PM
|
| Central States |
Bryan |
|
|
|
RichBusman
Advanced Member
453 Posts |
Posted - 11/19/2014 : 8:05:59 PM
|
I still personally am a diesel guy, numbers don't lie, nor does the reliability of EPA10+ Cummins engines. It also bothers me that many articles about districts switching to propane buses quote retail pump prices and not school district tax-exempt prices, but that's another story.
Stainless steel aisle trim is a good alternative when available... I agree the one piece floor can be nice, but still not perfect due to the seat installations, and any gaps at the sidewalls. I'd argue that proper undercoating, and upgraded marine grade plywood is more important in the long run.
Hopefully one day the school bus biz will offer Altro or Gerflor floors. Excellent and proven product in the commercial/transit bus world, but more cost, which means not a possibility in school buses until the demand is there:
http://www.altrofloors.com/Products/Bus-flooring
http://www.tarabusbygerflor.com/tarabus_us/ |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/21/2014 : 2:09:37 PM
|
| Interesting flooring system. I had never seen that before, thanks for posting. I think everyone knows where I stand on propane so I won't go into it here but suffice to say I'm not sure what numbers you are looking at that are not lying to you. At the current district pricing we are seeing only about 5 cents per mile savings on fuel. However, the repair and maintenance on a propane engine are far more economical than any diesel will ever be. Simply put, diesel engine parts are way over priced for the school bus market. I believe we will eventually see less initial cost on propane units than diesels. Getting all three large bus makers in the market will help tremendously. All that is left to put into place is engines from IC and Thomas that are proven. Time will tell. BB is making too much money in the market for Thomas and IC to just leave it alone. All three companies will continue to develop systems to one up the others. We live in an awesome time, friends! |
Bryan |
|
|
|
Sherm
Top Member
USA
621 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2014 : 12:21:36 PM
|
Add another district to the propane list...I'm recommending the purchase of 3 units. I've hammered this diesel versus propane comparison hard; I just can't find a downside to modern propane technology that is any worse than the downsides to modern diesels. And if I can save any money at all, we can certainly put every penny to better use. |
|
|
|
bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 12/05/2014 : 5:43:36 PM
|
Awesome! Welcome to the club. Please keep us posted on your progress and after you get them as well.
Also, I will be having a little time here in the next week or two so I plan to get some updates out there on our last purchase. It's some useful information on the propane units not unlike some of the quirky trouble we have been seeing posted here with the diesel units. |
Bryan |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
BB propane.
