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eshover
Senior Member
146 Posts |
 Posted - 04/16/2014 : 1:41:33 PM
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Well here is the new thread on propane buses. We have 2 out of a fleet of 17. One is older, 2000 so it really doesn't count because there is no comparison to the new ones,totally different system. The reason I was asking Bryan about his buses is because we are not getting very good mileage which of course relates to not being able to take long activity trips. We have 1000 gallon system at our shop to fill it.
Ours was built in late 2012 so that makes it a 2013. We just got it in July of 2013 as a demonstrator. It has Ford V10 with the Roush system.
Don't know a lot about it yet but would like to hear other peoples experiences with theirs.
It is one of the most quiet buses you will find and it does have air ride suspension.
ED |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2014 : 2:16:52 PM
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| I'm not going to be able to tell you any more about the v10 than you already know. I love ours so far. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2014 : 2:24:43 PM
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| To answer the question from the other thread on where we fuel our buses; we have a fueling station here at the school. It is a 500 gallon propane tank with a high pressure differential pump and GG20 fill nozzle. The high pressure differential pump is very important to keep in mind, no other type will fill these buses, at least completely full and/ or for very long. The pumps that are used on a grille bottle will fill them but not full and they will wear out after a short time. The GG20 nozzle is very user friendly for your drivers and is called a "low emission" nozzle. This is because when it evacuates the propane (after fueling and before disconnection) there is very little that comes out the small holes in the nozzle as compared to the style that most companies use when filling the large tanks for home heat. I'm not sure of the cost because my propane supplier has provided it with the fuel bid. I am thinking somewhere between 12k & 15k (could very well be wrong but that is in the ballpark). |
Bryan |
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bus a groove
Senior Member
70 Posts |
Posted - 04/16/2014 : 2:44:51 PM
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We have had 2 BB demos. Vision and Micro Bird G5. We are interested in the Vision with max seating capacity.
Before I got the demos I was concerned with a lack of power. Well my concern was blown out of the water. The propane buses have more than enough power as they downshift and put the power to the ground at any feel of a load.
Saying that. My new concern is how much of loss am I going to see with my MPG. Unloaded on flat ground at a steady speed I averaged between 5.4-5.7 MPG over the course of about 300 miles. Also the Vision was still Special Ed size.
We are located in the Sierra Foothills of Northern California. We do have some routes that don't have too many hills but I would like to get some real world everyday use numbers of MPG. Our Transit diesel buses are getting between 5.5 and 7.5 mpg. I feel if the propane buses fall in 4.5-4.0 or below MPG would not be beneficial to us as we would also be losing seating capacity.
I was overall impressed with the propane powered buses
My ideal setup would be a lease to own so if it didnt work out for me I could return the buses |
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eshover
Senior Member
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 05:39:52 AM
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Bryan, How long does it take to fill your bus and do you have the larger tank on them? At the present time we are averaging 3.6 MPG. I know it should be better but have been talking to BB rep to see if something is not correct on settings or whatever. This week I set the dash to watch instant fuel mileage and cruising on level road at 55 MPH it showed about 4.6 - 4.8 MPG. Ours will only get about 175 miles before the alarm comes on for low fuel. I have to fill it every 2-3 days. I fill them so it is a pain to have to keep track of when they need fuel.
ED |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 06:10:51 AM
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Yeah, I can difinately see that fueling that often would be a pain. My new one fills at 13 gpm which is near double our older one at 7gpm. You might check to see if the driver is driving it like a diesel. The reason I say that is our drivers put the pedal to the metal on the diesels and as you know you don't need to do that on a propane. Our new bus has the large tank.
bus a groove, what are you paying for fuel? Also, don't forget that you will never have to replace a particulate filter or egr cooler. That has to count for something toward the overall cost of ownership. |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 06:34:15 AM
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My question about the fueling.... is it a process that drivers can do?
When we had propane 25 years ago with a fueling station the drivers were not comfortable with fueling their own buses. |
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eshover
Senior Member
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 07:21:59 AM
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Bryan, Yes this driver does put the pedal to the metal so to speak and we have been told that will make a difference. I just wish we had the bigger tank.
bus a groove, the bus we have has about 7000 miles on an oil change and the oil looks like new. Oil changes are further apart on LP's. We have an old fill system but I think the new systems are much easier to use.
Bryan, what is your oil change interval on LP's ?
ED |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 10:19:44 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
My question about the fueling.... is it a process that drivers can do?
When we had propane 25 years ago with a fueling station the drivers were not comfortable with fueling their own buses.
This system is very easy. It's a little more involved than a diesel pump but not much. Pull hose out of cabinet, take protective cap off end, screw onto bus, pull and lock trigger on nozzle, flip remote valve on, clear meter, push on button. Then when it's fueled; turn switch off, push remote valve down, release trigger on nozzle (small amount of propane gas evacuates from three holes in side of nozzle), unscrew nozzle, replace cap, hang hose back up, & close enclosure doors. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 10:22:15 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eshover
Bryan, Yes this driver does put the pedal to the metal so to speak and we have been told that will make a difference. I just wish we had the bigger tank.
bus a groove, the bus we have has about 7000 miles on an oil change and the oil looks like new. Oil changes are further apart on LP's. We have an old fill system but I think the new systems are much easier to use.
Bryan, what is your oil change interval on LP's ?
ED
Right now I'm only at 8k but I am thinking of going to 10k on the older bus because I've just now went to synthetic on it. Still on factory oil on the new one and will stay with regular oil for a few thousand miles to break it in. |
Bryan |
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JRob
Advanced Member
207 Posts |
Posted - 04/17/2014 : 1:46:33 PM
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A couple of things to consider. LPG has 60% of the energy content of diesel fuel. Therefore, a rough estimate is you will get at worst 60% of the mpg you get from your diesel. With this in mind you can do a simple exercise to test if you can save money.
Let's say you go 10 miles on a gallon of diesel on a route(that's great MPG but this is just for arguments sake). You'll go 6 miles on a gallon of LPG on the same route. So over 60 miles you use 6 gallons of diesel and 10 gallons of LPG. Retail diesel is roughly $4.00 so you spend $24 to go 60 miles (Once again, I know schools don't pay retail but for this exercise...
Therefore, you'd have to pay $2.39 or less for LPG to save money.
So the key with LPG is getting a good price from a supplier and locking it in. Lower maintenance, etc. has potential for savings depending on the operaton but the most immediate savings is in spending less on the fuel so managing that part of it is critical.
That 60% of mpg is just energy content. You can improve it relative to diesel if you control idling, modify how you drive and accelerate, and so on. There is no magic solution and you have to work to wring out all the potential savings. However, that is going to be the case with any alt fuel choice and really it's the same with diesel. Diesel just has the largest cushion for inefficiency elsewhere in operation since it's mpg is the best available in on-highway fuels. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 04:15:34 AM
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| JRob, your illustration is correct in theory but in reality there ares so many variables it is really hard to put those numbers in practice. I think the efficiency of these engines will improve but right now the 60% you're talking about would be the very best we can get from these units. My theory is that the more things you add to an engine the more problems you invite. That and the cost savings shares the top spot for me in wanting to continue on the path we are on. The easy of maintenance has to be in there too. Will these things make it easier for a large fleet in maintain? I think so and I think in the long run we will be able to go to a smaller crew to maintain a fleet. Now I know that doesn't sound good for a group of mechanics but the alternative is cutting services and with that we still loose personnel. Just my two cents. |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 06:10:57 AM
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I know there has been some banter diesel/propane here.
My biggest concerns are:
1. A uniform fleet, converting to an autogas fleet would take nearly 22 years at my school.
2. I have often wondered the price fluctuation effect on secondary/lower energy content fuels. Seems to me that price changes would have an exaggerated effect as more fuel is used to perform the same task.
3. If autogas were to suddenly catch on and sales increased dramatically, supply/demand would possibly change the dynamics of the autogas cost benefit.
4. In my district a move to a more expensive propane bus would require a sales pitch, and I'm not comfortable selling something with such a limited track record. I just recently had this experience in regards to Lion Bus. All I could do was give the theory of long life expectancy, cost benefits etc., but with no real life data to back it up.
5. I am strongly against any secondary fuels that require my tax money as a subsidy to subsist.
6. Propane is a byproduct of refining oil... it is not some miraculous product with no environmental negatives. It comes from the same place as diesel. Kind of like electric cars.... zero emission until you visit a coal fired electric plant, and see the strip mines to produce that coal.
7. The thought that propane engines will improve in efficiency, yet propane has less energy available so this impact will likely be limited.
8. Less maintenance, my diesel units are serviced at 450 hours which converts to 7,000 to 9,000+ miles depending upon use.
I can see savings in regards to emissions, and they could be substantial.
9. What happens if Roush/Ford makes a business decision that autogas isn't a profitable venture?
10. Lion bus is developing an electric bus, if the electric proves to be cheaper/cleaner/more efficient, does everyone jump from the propane ship and board the electric ship?
This is a good thread to kick ideas around. |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 06:25:49 AM
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One concern might be is that there is no track record for aluminum headed full size school bus engines.
The Cummins ISB and the MaxxForce DT are approved for use in vehicles with far greater GVWs than the Ford V10 which in reality is not much more than a 5.4 liter pickup truck V8 with 2 additional cylinders.
I also can't help but note that all the propane delivery trucks around here are diesel powered, if anyone can buy propane at wholesale prices it would be those folks and yet...........?? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/18/2014 06:31:51 AM |
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eshover
Senior Member
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 07:32:02 AM
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I know that LP is a newer idea in school buses but they burn cleaner with no DEF and run quieter. In theory there should be less maintenance and easier to repair but time will tell.
I started the thread to get other peoples views and opinions and it has been very interesting to read these. Keep going with the banter.  |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 07:53:22 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by eshover
I know that LP is a newer idea in school buses but they burn cleaner with no DEF and run quieter. In theory there should be less maintenance and easier to repair but time will tell.
Its not really all that new to some of us  , in the 1980s we ran alot of buses on propane as gasoline prices took a spike and diesel had not really taken widespread hold in the school bus market. Near that time gasoline powered bus market took another blow from the Carrolton bus disaster limiting the gas engines available to convert. Diesel became the widespread engine and fuel of choice. Now fuel prices and the EPA standards have opened the door to more consideration of alternative fuels.
The propane difference today from the 80s is fuel injection and factory assembled and warrantied units rather than aftermarket conversions. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/18/2014 07:54:38 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 10:35:38 AM
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Second.Flood, you sound like a man after my own heart. I had all those questions too. I'll try to give you some of the answers I found, may not answer all these due to time.
1) Uniform fleet- This would be no different than what Fastback mentioned about changing over from gasoline to diesel. It's just something that will happen over time.
2)Price fluctuation- Even though we are just coming off of a big spike I think, historically, we are looking at a fuel that is stable in price. The chances of a problem like they had this winter (shipping) again is very slim in my opinion.
3) The likelihood of the school bus, delivery vehicle, etc. use running up the cost of propane because of demand is not likely in my opinion. I can't find the number right now but the percentage of usage by autogas customers vs. home heating etc. is very small. Adding these vehicles will not create much of a demand, in the overall scheme of things, even if everyone thought it was a good idea and every bus in the country was running on it.
4)The cost difference is not that much, check it out. Also, as compared to other alternatives it is the lowest up charge.
5)I agree with not wanting to use gov funds to subsidize. My units cost me about 38 cents per mile before we pay road tax (which is the same as we pay for diesel) at today's propane price. That cost was lower before I ran out of booked propane.
6) 90% of propane is derived from natural gas. In fact most of the propane that is produced by oil refineries is used by the refinery, especially in the winter months.
9) What if- There are no guarantees in life but I know what you mean. The fact that there is more than one company doing these, plus the fact that there are a pretty large number in service, along with the engine being in production for gasoline gives me peace of mind. In fact there are many more of the Ford engines out there than the 8.0 that Clean Fuel is putting into production but that still wouldn't deter me from buying an 8.0.
10)I think cost is going to be a factor for electric for a while. in addition, I could see it working for cities and garbage trucks but with school buses the range is going to be a problem unless they have a monumental breakthrough in battery technology (I wouldn't put it past them at this point, there are some awesome things happening)
Fastback, I wouldn't even be here (propane) had the EPA not gotten their nose in our business. lol |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 11:43:24 AM
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bwest
What did your recent bus cost and how is it configured?
Same question to eshover. |
Edited by - second.flood on 04/18/2014 11:44:24 AM |
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Crown
Senior Member
89 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 11:45:09 AM
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| We've been running quite a number of Cleanfuel and Roush propane powered school buses for a while now. All I can say is that it's been good. |
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got a min
Active Member
31 Posts |
Posted - 04/18/2014 : 1:07:24 PM
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| I don't know a lot about propane. I like diesel but if we can save some money why not hear what people have to say. I have one question every propane delivery truck I see is diesel powered. If it's that good why don't they use it? |
Edited by - got a min on 04/18/2014 1:15:04 PM |
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eshover
Senior Member
146 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2014 : 12:20:38 PM
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The bus cost somewhere around $70,000 with Ford 6.8 V10. 415 C.I.D. = 362 HP @4750 RPM & 457 ft.lb. torque @3250 RPM.
The transmission is shown on the build sheet as Ford 6R140. 6 speed Torqshift AT.
Air brakes & rear air suspension. 65 passenger BBCV. We have the smaller LP tank so useable capacity is only 67 gallons, the larger tank has 93 gallon useable capacity according to Roush Cleantec website. The most I have put in the tank is 50 gal.
That's about all I know about it so far. I think I would have a fight on my hands if I told the driver she couldn't have it anymore because she likes it.
ED |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2014 : 1:27:06 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
bwest
What did your recent bus cost and how is it configured?
Same question to eshover.
I can't give out the cost here but it is north of what eshover said because we had a few options on it including A/C. At last check the upcharge over a diesel is like 1,500 bucks or there bouts. Take into account the cost of repairs on emissions components, DEF, & fuel on diesels & 1,500 doesn't sound like a lot of money. At least to an organization that keeps these things for the long haul. Now, if you have a 5 year and out program then you are probably not going to benefit as much. (I have another opinion about the 5 year leases but I'll keep those to myself) |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2014 : 2:01:25 PM
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| bwest, do work for a private bus company? Just curious why you can't give the cost of your bus? |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2014 : 04:36:30 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by second.flood
bwest, do work for a private bus company? Just curious why you can't give the cost of your bus?
Ditto, Curious also.
Actual competitive bids, that eliminate any bus salesman's spin enabled by knowledge that a buyer is not going to consider purchasing the competitor's diesel bus anyway, show a $6,864 upcharge over a 220 hp Cummins. Add another $1700 if you want the extended range fuel tank. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/22/2014 11:03:50 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2014 : 05:19:25 AM
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| Public school, and the amount we spent on the unit is public, but I'm not the one authorized to give that information. I probably give out too much here on occasions anyway. lol |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/22/2014 : 09:25:29 AM
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Come on..... you sound like you have some political aspirations.
I bet the bus was about $86,000.
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Public school, and the amount we spent on the unit is public, but I'm not the one authorized to give that information. I probably give out too much here on occasions anyway. lol
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Edited by - second.flood on 04/22/2014 11:37:12 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 05:37:29 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
quote:
Originally posted by bwest
Did you guys see this article posted today?
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/Channel/Bus-Maintenance/News/2014/04/21/Indiana-district-sees-maintenance-savings-with-propane-buses.aspx?ref=Newsline-20140422&utm_campaign=Newsline-Tuesday-NEW-20140422&utm_source=Email&utm_medium=Enewsletter
I saw it, I couldn't help to note that they failed to mention they could buy diesel engines that only held 15 quarts of oil rather than the 32
I wasn't aware of that. Wonder why anyone, in the school bus industry, would desire a large sump like that?
If you want the heaviest duty available, 660 lb. ft. of torque, wet sleeved, rebuildable in chassis, inline six cylinder diesel available in a conventional school bus then you end up with one that holds 32 quarts of oil.
The very capable and proven ISB Cummins diesel, also up to 660 lb. ft. of torque, that holds 15 quarts of oil and gets outstanding fuel mileage is now available in all brands of full size conventional buses.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/23/2014 05:52:33 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 06:56:17 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
If you want the heaviest duty available, 660 lb. ft. of torque, wet sleeved, rebuildable in chassis, inline six cylinder diesel available in a conventional school bus then you end up with one that holds 32 quarts of oil.
The very capable and proven ISB Cummins diesel, also up to 660 lb. ft. of torque, that holds 15 quarts of oil and gets outstanding fuel mileage is now available in all brands of full size conventional buses.
[/quote]
I thought you were talking about a different sump in the Maxforce. |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 07:24:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
If you want the heaviest duty available, 660 lb. ft. of torque, wet sleeved, rebuildable in chassis, inline six cylinder diesel available in a conventional school bus then you end up with one that holds 32 quarts of oil.
The very capable and proven ISB Cummins diesel, also up to 660 lb. ft. of torque, that holds 15 quarts of oil and gets outstanding fuel mileage is now available in all brands of full size conventional buses.
quote:
I thought you were talking about a different sump in the Maxforce.
Well there are 2 totally different Maxxforce engines;
The inline 6 MaxxForce DT holds 32 Qts oil.
The V8 MaxxForce 7 holds 19 Qts oil.
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Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/23/2014 07:27:30 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 08:59:06 AM
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| Yeah, I knew that, lol. I was thinking the inline. I guess to this fellow, in the article, there is only one engine. I'm sure he was just stating what he has had in the past. |
Bryan |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 09:23:19 AM
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Hey Bryan,
Why did you buy A/C? Was it just because it was already equipped as such (demo)? Kind of runs against the whole money saving theme.
And why did you trade in a bus valued at $25,000?
I just traded in a bus valued at $55,000....it had issues that could not be resolved under warranty.
If these Cummins have the troubles that the Navistar emissions had, I would be tempted to consider something else. By all accounts the Cummins should be better though.
And I have BB writing me a propane equipped quote using the same specs as my recently delivered diesel units. I'll share the upcharge here when I get it. |
Edited by - second.flood on 04/23/2014 09:27:28 AM |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 09:26:03 AM
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| Sure, they just now bought their first 5 Bluebird buses to go along with their 155 other IC buses, all with MaxxForce DTs and they are totally unaware that some diesels might not need 32 quarts during an oil change. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 04/23/2014 09:29:59 AM |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 04/23/2014 : 09:44:07 AM
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Fastback, you're funny.
second.flood, I don't know where the 25k came from, hope I didn't give that impression. We traded a 16 year old bus, I think they gave us 2 or 3k for it. A/C is the school board's thing not mine. I would just as soon not have them, the dog gone things are a pain and eat money in maintenance and I told them that. |
Bryan |
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Topic |
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New Propane Buses
