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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2008 : 5:41:49 PM
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| We have 16 2005 IC CE's in our fleet all with the VT365. Within the last week, three of them have gone down with bad injectors. What could be the cause of so many injector failures all at once? Could we be getting bad fuel? Any ideas? |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2008 : 5:51:51 PM
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It seems like the injectors just flat wear out. Eventually they start missing injections when the engine is under load. Maybe this is what happened to you?
IH apparently has modified "split-cap" injectors available to fix some of these injector heartaches, see here:
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17370&whichpage=2
That was a while ago though, I don't know how these new injectors are holding up. |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
Edited by - Nick on 09/25/2008 5:59:46 PM |
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wright11
Senior Member
Canada
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 06:04:41 AM
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| just BAD engine design, thank god this motor is obsolete..we have 3 of these ,,and we rent a stall at the dealership for repairs!!! |
I'D WOULD RATHER BE CUMMIN THAN STROKIN ! ! ! !
I.C no future!! |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 08:03:05 AM
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IT's not at all a "bad design", same injectors in the DTs with no troulbes to speak of.
Keeping good claen oil in them and good fuel pressure is the KEY to long component life. All of the removed injectors that I have seen have been WORN out from dirty oil, the spool valve faces polished shiny from wear. This causes hard start/excessive smoke/misfire on cold start, but warm they run normally.
Heck, 20 years ago we were doing injectors in 8.2Ls every 50k-60k and the 6.9Ls often were junk by 100,000 miles. We accepted that as required maintenance!
We've come a LONG way from those days! |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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wright11
Senior Member
Canada
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 10:15:54 AM
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| it could also be the new ULSD, normal diesel has lube properties, but the ulsd has none or very little |
I'D WOULD RATHER BE CUMMIN THAN STROKIN ! ! ! !
I.C no future!! |
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wright11
Senior Member
Canada
159 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 10:18:26 AM
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| modmech,,,why did they discontinue the 365 then???? |
I'D WOULD RATHER BE CUMMIN THAN STROKIN ! ! ! !
I.C no future!! |
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cabinover
New Member
United States
3 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 12:39:54 PM
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I can tell you this little tidbit, make sure that when you change a fuel filter that you refill the housing with fuel. These injectors don't like not having fuel to lubricate them.
I've been told by one of International's reps that when a 365 runs dry they're instantly a candidate for injectors. Take it for what it costs. |
Trying to keep 'em rolling |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 3:36:07 PM
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John, you make a good point about the older diesels having problems as well. My only question is that, why don't the DTs have the same problems? I"m sure plenty of 466 owners don't change the oil as often as they should. There has to be a difference in the design of the injectors for each engine (even if they are basically the same and work on the same principle), or perhaps an event that is occuring only in the 365 that is causing this problem. Do you/International know anything other than dirty oil to cause this? Perhaps certain maintenance practices (such as the fuel filter changes), vibrations, driving habits, etc. would be possible causes.
Rick: The reason for discontinuing the design was due mainly to emissions. It was probably cheaper to design a brand new engine then try to fix the issues and meet current emissions standards on the same engine. Perhaps they needed a larger displacement to acquire the torque characteristics they wanted and still be able to meet emissions requirements. There could be 100 reasons why they designed a new engine, but it wasn't just because the engine wasn't a great success (although I'm sure that is a contributing factor, it was not the SOLE factor). |
Edited by - International-9.0 on 09/26/2008 4:48:26 PM |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 5:00:22 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by wright11
just BAD engine design, thank god this motor is obsolete..we have 3 of these ,,and we rent a stall at the dealership for repairs!!!
That's what the mechanic told me when he was working on my bus yesterday afternoon. He told me that engine was prematurely put into production and never should have made it out of research and development.
Anyway, why the mechanic was working on my bus yesterday... in the middle of my high school run, I'm doing a stop, and the bus stalls and won't restart. Another one of the '05 IC's with the VT365. I tried replacing the 40 amp fuse in the battery cable only to find that wasn't blown. So they sent a mechanic out to do what he could on-site, and after about an hour he finally called for a tow truck. The engine would turn but wouldn't catch, and the yellow engine light was on. The mechanic checked all the electrical and couldn't find anything. Any ideas? |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2008 : 8:26:37 PM
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The DTs have a much larger oil pan for the same HP and duty cycle and they are more likely to be optioned by buyers that are more tolerant of slightly higher up-front costs and bigger annual budgets so an extra oil change per year is not even on their radar.
The VT365 was NOT rushed into production. In my opinion, there are some things about how it's installed that can add to the list of problems (PCM fuse and Clean Power Connections to name a few) that add to it's reputation as being unreliable. The BASE ENGINE is just fine, sure there were some that had harness problems or EGR valves stick, but the MAJORITY of the problems revolve around three areas, none are the manufacturer's "fault" from what I can see. Add to that the fact that many sat for a year before they were purchased because of bidding and pre-builds, the HUGE cooling system and sitting in HUMID climates for 3 months w/o being run all add to troubles that are not design flaws as much as occurrances that someone without INTIMATE knowledge of the whole "order to operator" system would not and could not think of.
1) EGR coolers failing due to plugging of the OIL cooler with debris from a contaminated cooling system. This is a two-fold issue, a) bad block heaters that "sluffed"; b) poor re-fill practices.
2) STC fitting failures - this appears to be completely vendor related from what I was told, parts not delivered as specified, and the part fails.
3) Extended oil drains polishing the injector spool valves from wear particles in the oil. The OCI on an engine that BEST fits that vehicle's operating conditions is almost NEVER a simple mileage rule. You NEED to take into account miles, engine hours and fuel use. International CLEARLY states that the OCI is base on ANY ONE of those three, WHICH EVER COMES FIRST. This is almost never actualy monitored. Me = guilty too.
If you want to see some injectors torn up FAST, use synthetic oil and extended drain intervals!!! The Ford boys that tried this were having stiction issues in 20,000 miles! The injectors were built to prevent stiction, but the milling can be worn away fairly quickly firing 1500 times per minute on dirty oil. Another factor is that the DTs don't spin as fast so you get fewer firings every hour, LOTS fewer. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 09/26/2008 8:31:36 PM |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 05:57:47 AM
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The VT 365 was "packaged" up so as to fit in tight applications such as Ford vans, so all that "stuff" got placed in the engine "V" which led to the VT365s cooling system being plumbed in series. This type of plumbing can lead to those domino type of failures where a problem in one component takes out a component down the line.
The VT365s VGTurbo depends on engine oil pressure to move its vanes so there is no key on, key off movement like in a DT466.
The VT365 retains nearly one gallon of oil in its system that never drains out during an oil change, the percentage of retained versus drained oil is much higher than in a DT. In the 15 quart refill Ford applications over 25% of the oil circulating after an oil change is used oil that never drained out. This is whats actuating the injectors. Over extend the drain intervals and use your imagination.
Throw in the chaffing harnesses, electrical issues and sticky EGR valves and there you go or don't go.
The design of the Maxxforce 7 V8 corrects all these issues.
VT365 Survival guide; Stay on top of or ahead of the oil changes. Do not run out of fuel or neglect fuel filter changes. Do not tolerate any cooling system leaks. Use a Vacuum and fill tool when refilling cooling system to eliminate EGR cooler killing air pockets.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 09/27/2008 06:13:27 AM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 07:16:19 AM
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Everything you say is correct, but the galon of left over oil part, I'm not agreeing with that. The HPOP reservior holds about a Qt, just like the T444E/7.3L PSD and the reservior on the DT holds 1.5-2.2 qts depending on the model year and front cover configuration. So actually, the DTs have more "undrained" oil as a percentage than the V-8 does. I completely agree however, that this IS an issue with the design.
The oil actuated VGT is actually common with the pre-EGR DTs with the HT rating. Not all of them had it, but many did. The design is not bad, but under extreme conditions, either from rust or carbon the oil activated VGT does not have enough power to free up a sticking unison ring where the electriacally actuated ones often will.
International knew the poppet style EGR valve may cause troubles but Ford insisted that there not be "another module" for it, so they tried it the Ford way for 2002 and 2003 and they were right, the valve does not work as well as it should. The 2004+ VTs use a stepper motor type valve like the DTs and are much, much better. THE single biggest issue with the EGR valves is IDLE TIME, and in the bus world, you got LOTS of that. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 09:22:23 AM
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That was very enlightening information guys. I knew there had to be some reasoning as to why the VTs were more prone to failures. So if I were to change oil and coolant (filters as well of course) religiously and keep idling time to almost none, would this eliminate most of my injector issues? (at least yielding what the manucaturer would consider to be a normal service life for the injectors)
What was the logic in using oil pressure to control the turbo vanes? Why not just put electric motors on them from the start?
I used to wonder what the logic was behing the whole HEUI principle, but I think I figured that out. My best guess is, at the time, this was the only developed way to control the pressure at which the fuel was injected. This allowed for different pressures under different engine operating conditions. Cam operated injecters with electronic solenoids would only be able to inject at a consistent pressure (only the amount and timing of the fuel injected was controled). Am I barking up the wrong tree, or can somebody add to that?
It just seems (aside from wiring harness issues or poor connection problems), that electronic would be simpler and more reliable than having to have a HPOP, control valve, special and very expensive injectors and having work to worry about dirty oil so much.
There was an obvious advantage to this system because it was used for so long. I believe the later series of T444Es to be the best modern V8 engines International has made. These seem to keep on going forever with little trouble. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 6:33:02 PM
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9.0,
From what I have seen, CLEAN coolant (remote FILTER - a particulate filter, NOT a "DCA/SCA" type!), closely monitoring oil change intervals to strictly keep then within the reccomended intervals, and reducing idle time will make a MAJOR difference on your operating CPM - lowering it.
The HEUI system works on hydraulic multiplication. If you have 1,000 PSI of "ICP" (Injection Control Pressure) to the injectors, you get nearly a 7:1 multiplication of that at the injector nozzle, or about 7,000 PSI. That does not sound great at first.
T444E ICP ~3,200 PSI = Injection pressure of ~22,000 PSI
DT466EGR ICP ~5,300 PSI = Injection pressure of ~37,000 PSI
MaxxForce 7 (V-8 w/diesel common rail) = Injection pressure of 29,000 PSI
MaxxForce DT (HEUI) ICP ~ 6,000 PSI = Injection pressure of ~43,000 PSI
MAxxForce DT (2010 - RUMOR) ICP ~ 8,000 PSI+ = Injection pressure of 56,000 PSI!
You CANNOT get much over 25,000 PSI injection pressures w/o HEUI, it's simply too hard on the cam lobes, push tubes, rocker arms etc. Diesel Common Rail is currently limited to about 32,000 PSI of injection pressure.
More Injection Pressure = better atomization, lower emissions, fuel burned more completely, more control of the combustion process, better mileage and a cleaner engine. ALL GOOD! |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 8:04:32 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by ModMech
Everything you say is correct, but the galon of left over oil part, I'm not agreeing with that. The HPOP reservior holds about a Qt, just like the T444E/7.3L PSD and the reservior on the DT holds 1.5-2.2 qts depending on the model year and front cover configuration.
The remaining oil is not just in the HPOP resevoir, here are the specifications verbatim, right out of an International service manual; "Lube system capacity (dry) 23 quarts"
"Lube system capacity (including filter) 19 quarts"
Copied and Pasted below;
"International® VT 365 engine features and specifications
Engine
Diesel, 4 cycle
Configuration
4 OHV/1 Cam-in-Crankcase V8
Displacement
365 cu. in (6.0L)
Bore and stroke
95 mm x 105 mm (3.74 in x 4.134 in)
Compression ratio
18.0:1
Aspiration
VGT turbocharged and Charge Air Cooling (CAC)
Rated power @ rpm Base rating shown. See Appendix A for other ratings.
175 bhp @ 2600 rpm
Peak torque @ rpm
460 lbf•ft @ 1400 rpm
Engine rotation, facing flywheel
Counterclockwise
Combustion system
Digital Direct Injection (DDI)
Total engine weight (auto with oil)
459 kg (1094 lb)
Cooling system capacity (engine only)
10.2 liters (10.8 qts)
Lube system capacity (including filter)
18 liters (19 qts)
Lube system capacity (dry)
21.8 liters (23 qts)
Firing order
1-2-7-3-4-5-6-8"
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
Edited by - origcharger on 09/27/2008 8:06:26 PM |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 10:27:43 PM
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| I thought HEUI wasn't going to meet the 2007 emissions?? |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 10:42:17 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0
I thought HEUI wasn't going to meet the 2007 emissions??
Well, IH doesn't call it HEUI anymore(since that's the Cat term for it), they call it "Electro-Hydraulic Generation 2" or G2 for short. But at base it is a hydraulically actuated, electronically controlled unit injection system, which is what HEUI stands for. The G2 system does meet EPA 07 emissions. |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
Edited by - Nick on 09/27/2008 10:42:43 PM |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 06:00:09 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by International-9.0
I thought HEUI wasn't going to meet the 2007 emissions??
Well the 2007 MaxxForce DT and the MaxxForce 5 which is just a VT365 minus 2 cylinders still have HEUI.
The VT365 was capable of meeting 2007 emissions. Basically since their engines needed a "redo" for 2010 they chose to do the V8 early because the current offering had lost consumer confidence. They are going to cancel the MaxxForce 5 by 2010 so its not going to be an issue. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 06:09:03 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by cabinover
I can tell you this little tidbit, make sure that when you change a fuel filter that you refill the housing with fuel. These injectors don't like not having fuel to lubricate them.
I've been told by one of International's reps that when a 365 runs dry they're instantly a candidate for injectors. Take it for what it costs.
The abscense of fuel is tough on the injectors as they need the fuel to "cushion" their operation. Running out of fuel and not properly bleeding the air out can also damage the DTs injectors. |
Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 07:39:04 AM
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In any engine there is oil in various places like the crank drillings, block passages, oil cooler etc that cannot be drained at service. My comments were specifically directed at the differences in HPOP reservior volumes, and none others.
HEUI is still a term used by International, both casually and in documents. The "G2" is simply that the injectors have been completely re-designed and they were first installed (G2 injeectors) in the EGR products (2002 for the VT365, 2004 for the DTs). Those G2 injectors are exactly the same as those in the all 6 cylinder MaxxForce engines except the Big Bore (MF11 & MF13) which are Bosch Diesel Common Rail types like the MF7 (6.4L) V-8. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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International-9.0
Advanced Member
USA
459 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 08:03:15 AM
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| So, currently the only IH engines to use common rail are the 6.4 and the Big Bore engines? Why haven't they converted the other DTs over to common rail as well? I thought they could achieve higher presssures? Is that system more expensive? Would it require a complete engine redesign? I didn't know the Ford version of the 6.4 was so quiet until I heard one and thought it was a gas engine at first. I didn't even know until I saw the diesel badge on the side of the truck. Amazing what technology can do. To think, we've gone from noisey 9 LITERS to almost noiseless 6.4 engines injecting at pressures over 30,000! |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 08:33:14 AM
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DCR is essentially technology limited right now to 33,000 PSI or in that close range.
HEUI is currently "unlimited" in Injection pressure due to the internal injector pressure multiplication. To achieve the 33,000 PSI of Injection pressure with a HEUI system you need only about 4,400 PSI of ICP and that takes a LOT less HP than to generate the full 33,000 PSI.
Also, when a DCR injector "sticks" it sticks WIDE OPEN, when this happens you hydro-lock the engine OR burn a piston and window the block before you even know that anything is "wrong". When a HEUI injector sticks, it injects fuel once, and that's it. You get a noticable misfire and have it fixed. That right there, is enough for me to say HEUI all the way! |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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origcharger
Top Member
United States
619 Posts |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 08:52:08 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ModMech
My comments were specifically directed at the differences in HPOP reservior volumes, and none others.
My comments were specifically directed at oil remaining in the engine after draining and none others.
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Operating; Seven T444Es, One MaxxForce 7, One VT365, Four DT466s, One E-450 6.0 and one Mercedes in a C2. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 04:15:22 AM
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| VT365 injectors will experience stiction symptoms beginning at 45,000 - 50,000 miles regardless of oil change intervals. We change oil and fuel filters at 5,000 miles and have this issue in all 22 buses. We currently have 8 sets of the split cap injectors in use but our highest mileage bus is only up to 25,000 miles so far. We have 22 of these units and many have over 100,000 miles, so the failure patterns have become predictable to us. The changes to the design of the split cap injector were in direct response to the wide spread problems encountered with this engine. We continue to lose EGR coolers but at a reduced rate. Our failures are not a result of the EGR cooler running dry on AF. We actually see the coolant use begin and can predict the failure approaching and send it to the dealer for warranty repair before the coolant even gets down to the add line on the bottle. For the above mentioned dying out problem, make sure your harness has been replaced at the batteries. It is not the fuse that fails but the holder gets loose and overheats the fuse. Also, take the electrical connector out of the IDM relay on the center of the firewall and inspect the terminal. We have been having these fail requiring replacment/repair of the plug. There is a new group of AFC's on this engine that all will want to follow through with. One is a low coolant sensor, the second is some turbo work, the third is a newer design change that gets rid of the STC fitting. A group of large fleets in our area just had a meeting with IH corp folks on this exact engine. I believe that the basic engine is fine, but there are so many weak links in the parts used on this engine. I have spent the last four years trying to keep on top of these and it is very difficult...especially if you are like us....a high mileage fleet. The DT466 is a dream compared to the VT. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/29/2008 : 4:50:11 PM
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| So Bassman, no problems with the split-cap injectors yet? |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 03:25:30 AM
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| So far every one perfect start and perfect run...but we're only up to 25,000 miles on them so the jury is still out. |
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Nick
Advanced Member
USA
333 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2008 : 10:42:51 PM
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| Just a note, they are still making the VT365 under the MaxxForceD brand for military applications. Seems like for all military versions they use diamond coated injectors to let the engines run on jet fuel. Maybe they should use these injectors in all their products to help with the injector issues in the VTs and DTs. Just a thought! |
IC the future, and it is bright. |
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mdf1237
New Member
United States
1 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 12:53:24 PM
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I have an 03 VT365. International has not been able to get it to run correctly for over 2 months. Changed all the injectors twice. New fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator, changed out all the fuel.
They are giving up and I cant run the bus. Any thoughts out there?
MIke |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4544 Posts |
Posted - 01/31/2009 : 5:58:45 PM
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| Fire and lots of it? |
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 02/01/2009 : 4:23:39 PM
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| If it's an '03 it's not the VT365. It would be the T444E. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
Edited by - BBInt.10 on 02/01/2009 4:24:34 PM |
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Bassman
Top Member
USA
558 Posts |
Posted - 02/02/2009 : 03:46:21 AM
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| What are your specific symptoms? |
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garygmh
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/19/2011 : 11:31:07 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by BBInt.10
We have 16 2005 IC CE's in our fleet all with the VT365. Within the last week, three of them have gone down with bad injectors. What could be the cause of so many injector failures all at once? Could we be getting bad fuel? Any ideas?
I have a 2006, 2007 and 2008 International all with the piece of crap VT365. God help me but I wish I'd never heard of International. And I say that after having bought over a dozen other International trucks. Till I got these three pieces of crap and heard nothing of help out of International I was a die hard IH fan. Heck, my business was the poster child for IH what with well over a million in IH trucks. Now, I'd rather shoot them than buy from them. I'm looking for other VT365 owners to go in on a class action law suit against IH. If you or anyone else is interested my email address is garygmh@gmhassociates.com mobile phone 609-658-3777. |
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Joh
New Member
1 Posts |
Posted - 09/20/2011 : 9:36:57 PM
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I've also been working on a 2006 international 4200 with a vt365 and I can't get the darn thing started, I changed the fuel pump and still nothing, the only thing I get from the trouble code 254 is "fault mode ID: 8-Abnormal Frequency, pulse width, or period, anyone know exactly what that refers to?
because this truck is seriously driving me insane... |
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member
USA
280 Posts |
Posted - 09/21/2011 : 6:47:43 PM
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ModMech, I think the biggest problem we all have with the VT365 is that it is just not as reliable as other engines we have in service. Nor is the "upgraded" version of it.
There are many of us that will be specing away from International in the future, based on the performance of these two engines. |
CMTT,CMAT,CMBT |
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mastertech
Advanced Member
274 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 2:01:24 PM
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joh check for wires rubbing on the turbo heat sheild by the ecm. We had a couple short out the cam signals . While cranking the engine the tach not registering rpm is a good sign of that.
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BBInt.10
Top Member
USA
1042 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2011 : 6:35:54 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by BJ Henderson
There are many of us that will be specing away from International in the future, based on the performance of these two engines.
Very true. My company has been buying Visions with the Cummins in them since 2009. My lot has just four VT365's left. One of them currently needs injectors again. I've been in my Vision for a little over 2 years now. Not one running issue in all that time, and that Cummins packs a lot more power than a VT365. A couple minor electrical problems in the body but that's it. |
If all your problems are behind you... you must be a school bus driver. |
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Topic |
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VT365 Injector Failure
