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fleettechllc
Active Member
United States
36 Posts |
 Posted - 04/06/2007 : 4:51:37 PM
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Hey guys, the last time I postes a question it seemed like everybody got their panties in a bunch over correct advice...lets try this again. :)
I've got a 2007 DT530e 315hp that seems to be really sluggish on take off. There was an inactive trouble code for #4 injector but all seems to be ok when doing injector tests. I ran the air management test and a fault code comes after the test is complete. DTC 345 ERAMS Fault. It says that is has to do with not getting the correct response when changing the Turbo output during the test yet there are no other codes in the ecm related to the turbo or egr system. What are the correct numbers for boost psi, back pressure, and egr % at full throttle? It seems like there is a problem starting to devolp with the turbo but I'm not sure? The truck only has about 25,000 miles on it and was just serviced about 3 weeks ago.
Does anybody have any experience using the air management tests in the MD software? Can I expect the results to be accurate?
Thanks in advance! |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 5:32:54 PM
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Engine temp cold? Fully warmed up? Doesn't matter?
Lazy manifold pressure sensor? |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
Edited by - IBTMech on 04/06/2007 5:33:49 PM |
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 5:47:04 PM
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no perf specs for a 530.
nor a 315 570
does the tubo pass the bounce test? will it move freely with the ign off
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its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch. |
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fleettechllc
Active Member
United States
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 7:40:07 PM
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| Bounce test? Please explain. It doesn't seem to matter with temp. |
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mrschoolbus
Senior Member
USA
78 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 7:45:47 PM
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Perform the Bounce Test Procedure
Note: Before performing this test for the first time, technicians should check a known-good
turbocharger to be aware of how the linkage should feel and sound when it is working
properly.
1. Turn the ignition key-switch to the OFF position.
2. Attempt to move the turbocharger linkage through its full range of motion by hand.
Rotate the end-link attached to the actuator as a crank to move the linkage. The linkage
should move smoothly and not chatter or hesitate.
3. Move the actuator linkage away from the engine and towards the frame rail. Release the
actuator linkage. The linkage should fall back towards the engine, bounce once, and then
return to its original position. Perform this test a couple of times to recognize the #147;bounce#148;
characteristic of the mechanism.
Decision Step 2A: If the turbo fails the bounce test, perform the Linkage Check
Procedure.
Decision Step 2B: If the turbo passes the bounce test, go to Step 3 and perform the Precycle
Check and Voltage / Ground Check while the pre-cycle is occurring.
Step 3: Perform the Pre-cycle Check and Voltage / Ground Check to the actuator under the load of the Pre-cycle
1. Connect the turbocharger breakout harness between the engine harness and the
turbocharger actuator pigtail.
Note: The male/female connector has an additional retention locking feature that must be
disengaged prior to separating the male/female connectors. This slide locking tab may be
coated with paint that will be required to be scrapped off to ease disassembly.
2. Turn the ignition key-switch to the KEY-ON ENGINE-OFF position.
3. Setup a Voltmeter to measure engine wiring harness voltage between the actuator
power and the ground terminals during the pre-cycle as follows:
Pin 1: Actuator Power (+)
Pin 2: Actuator Ground (-)
Use an assistant to cycle the key-switch. This will allow the technician to measure the voltage under the load of the pre-cycle. In addition, this will allow the technician to observe
the pre-cycle operation.
4. Observe the turbocharger linkage during pre-cycle movement. The linkage should rotate
through its range of motion all of the way out towards the frame rail, then rotate all of the
way back in towards the engine, and then rotate back out about half way.
5. Repeat the pre-cycle three times, with at least three seconds of key-off time between
the tests. Each pre-cycle should be completed in less then one second. The linkage should
move through its range of motion smoothly. The linkage should not chatter, vibrate,
hesitate or slow down.
6. Complete the pre-cycle tests. Make sure that the ignition key-switch is in the KEY-ON
ENGINE-OFF position.
7. Attempt to move the linkage by hand after the pre-cycle is completed on the last key
cycle. The linkage should not move.
Decision Step 3A: If the voltage is low (more than 0.5 Volts below Vbat) during the precycle,
repair the circuit as needed.
Let me know if it passes the bounce test and the voltage/ SRA test. MrSB |
Edited by - mrschoolbus on 04/06/2007 7:53:30 PM |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 09:57:42 AM
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Fleet,
Good! You cound the Air Management Test (AMT)!!! You go to the head of the class. Do you have the later version (2004 and newer) that support the full AMS testing with EGR? I *think* that is versions 4.2 and higher, but I'm not certain. I know V4.8 and higher work.
The diagnostics are covered in specialized training for this software provided by the local dealers. I suggest you check and see of you can get into one of the "Master Diagnostic" classes. I know it helped me A LOT.
First things first. The AMS checks wether the ECM gets the expected changes in EBP (Exhaust back pressure) and MAP (Manifold Absolute Pressure) when it commands the VGT (Variable Geometry Turbo) actuator to move. This can be affected by the EGR valve sticking - most commonly due to excessive idle time; (ala: carbon build-up on the valve).
What you don't know is if the Turbo actuator ever recieved the signal from the ECM. Without a break-out harness, we need to use other methods that are not exactly 100% proven, yet very effective. The procedures others have listed are WITH a Break-out Harness installed. You CANNOT accurately test ANY electrical circuit unless it is plugged in AND under load. So DO NOT use a voltage test for the actuator w/o the break-out harness for it. You WILL be lied to by the DMM w/o the harness.
Turn the key ON. The actuator MUST "pre-cycle", if not, it is either dead (killed by voltage spikes), not getting GOOD power and ground or stuck. Turn the key off. You MUST hear a "bounce" from the actuator when the key is then turned "OFF". No bounce, but a pre-cycle means the thing is sticking/binding.
To start with, you MUST run ALL "Diagnostic" tests, EVERY TIME there is some problem with the engine. If you skip tests, you will mis the bad wire that actually caused the problem.
With the Key On, open MD and select "Vin+". This will connect to the ECM and bring up some basic data. ALL pressures should be basically ZERO with the key on and engine off.
Now, open the "Diagnostics" by choosing it on the toolbar (names of stuff, not pictures). Do EVERY test: Standard, Cont. Monitor, and output state hi/low. The actuator MUST move when you cycle from output low to high. If it does not, it is either stuck, or not getting the signal to move (this would normally have caused a code during the standard test). Cont. Monitor will run for ever until you stop it. That's fine. DO NOT run the "Output State" tests longer than 2 minutes I think it is. There is no reason to anyway. Those tests WILL NOT turn themselves off.
When the engine is warmed up, about 160*F, you can do the engine running tests. Again, "Diagnostics" then KOER tests, start at the top with the "Standard", then move onto the Air management (output state is redundant here).
A few things cause AMS test failures.
As discussed above, wiring problems to the actuator (power, ground, signal), stuck linkages, burned up actuators (over-voltage is a VERY common cause), and stuck vanes inside (from excessive idle time).
A plugged or restricted EBP signal tube will also cause the test to fail. Clear by using a grease fitting on the sensor port, and pushing grease thru, then re-install the sensor.
A stuck EGR valve will cause the AMS test to fail. Generally 345 code.
A leak in the CAC system will fail the test, if it's detectable enough.
Most often, it's the EBP tube, EGR valve, and most commonly a dead or stuck actuator.
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If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 04/07/2007 10:04:25 AM |
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fleettechllc
Active Member
United States
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 1:24:36 PM
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Thanks for all the GREAT advice guys. I did as told and inspected a known good setup so I could see, feel and hear what should happen. I found that I could hear the precycle of the auctuator but no bounce once the key was turned off as I could on the good engine. I stoped there knowing that with only 25,000 miles they are probably going to want to take it in for warranty. Is this a common problem on the new DT's, seems like I've seen an awful lot of new actuators on these trucks?
ModMech - Are the training sessions open to private repair shops or are they mainly for dealer and large fleet tech's
Thanks Guys! |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 1:51:37 PM
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Fleet,
I first was made aware of this from our local IC dealer, so fleets of all sizes etc can take the class as far as I know. You just need to contact the local International or IC dealer to get registered.
The most common cause of binding, is corrosion on the linkage pins. Most of the time this is due to "road salt" and other chemicals that are put onto the roads to control ice - ALL of them are VERY corrosive. I suggest lubing the linkage pins at each service. It WILL save you tons of problems like this.
All I can say is you did exactly what you needed, and you found the problem. Great job. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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IBTMech
Top Member
USA
973 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 5:07:06 PM
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| ModMech, what would you recommend for a lubricant? It gets pretty hot near that compressor housing and I don't need any underhood fires. |
If it doesn't fit, FORCE it.
If it breaks, well, it needed replacing anyway.
Pullin' wrenches for 45 years. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 6:58:10 PM
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50:50 mix of ATF and diesel fuel.
Lubes GREAT and will not burn w/o a DIRECT flame. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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jeepcjron
Advanced Member
USA
262 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 06:50:58 AM
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you need to verify it is the linkage and not the sra causing the bind. remove the pinch bolt from the sra end and recheck for binding in the linkage. if it is the linkage here is the p/n if its to far gone.
Linkage Service Kit new part: 1876951C91 if disassembled to free up use never sieze. otherwize as modmech stated with the mix
also actuater issues need to be address if the following
(Replace the actuator if it does not have a suffix letter stamped next to the part number.
or Replace the actuator if the suffix letter next to the part number is A, B, C or D.)you will need your dealers help with this if it is warranteeable. there is a check list we must complete to obtain a turbo
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its like a slinky! useless but fun to watch. |
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fleettechllc
Active Member
United States
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 08:09:09 AM
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| The actuator linkage was a "little" sticky. I used some penetrating oil to free it up. It moves back and forth pretty smoothly by hand however there is no movement from the actuator at initial key-on just the normal buzzing. I didn't see the last post until after I worked on it so I don't know the part number suffix. Have the dealers been supplying new actuators under warranty to private repair shops? Any idea on the cost of a new one? |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 6:43:23 PM
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Fleet,
If the actuator does not pre-cycle, either it is not getting proper voltage and/or ground, or it's DEAD.
It looks like actuator time. You cannot get paid warrenty or parts as a non-dealer to replace this or any other part. Those warranty repairs are "dealer only". |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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fleettechllc
Active Member
United States
36 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 4:35:40 PM
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| Does anybody know what the "book" time is to replace the actuator? |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 08/25/2016 : 3:15:54 PM
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| Diag time is 1.5 for dealer. R&R time varies from 2.7 to 7.0 depending on application for 2010 emissions. No actual time listed for I-6 engine pre 2010. For end user add 30% to time. Actual SRT's are for warranty purposes only but do provide a guideline to follow if adding 30%. |
Brad A. Barker |
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international dt 530 e low on power
