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Admin
Administrator
1251 Posts |
 Posted - 10/01/2001 : 5:30:36 PM
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How do you feel about the following statement?
"At my operation, there is an invisible wall separating school transportation personnel from educators and administrators."
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MamaLoca
Advanced Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 09:47:04 AM
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In my humble opinion this is a true statement. It seems that we (the Transportation Personal) are only important when it comes to delivering cargo. As trained professionals we lack the respect and recognition from the Administration.
Are we not certified by the state?
Are we not required to maintain that certification to remain employed?
Are we not tested in numerous ways to prove we are capable?
The sad part is that there are as many Drivers that do not want the responcibility. They depend on the employer to keep them on schedule and maintain this and do not want to be employed full time because they are afraid it will entail that they are valid members of the Education process and thus be more involved. Many of us have bought into the theory that we are "Just Bus Drivers" I myself would like very much to be a full time driver to dedicate all my resources to the job, unfortunately at my rate of pay I have to maintain other employment as well and so my resources are divided.
Devide and conquer. We will most likely stay among the Non-Professional members of the Education Industry.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2001 : 4:13:36 PM
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We have no such walls. I'm an administrator and I'm in the shops and the drivers area all the time. If something is wrong or if someone has a problem they are quick to point it out to me. I know its an old cliche, but my door IS always open for folks to see me!
Joe
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2001 : 11:56:57 AM
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quote:
How do you feel about the following statement?
"At my operation, there is an invisible wall separating school transportation personnel from educators and administrators."
I would have to agree with MamaLoca for the most part.
However, I'm not all that convinced the so-called "invisible wall" is all that invisible. Else how could great administrations and their employees find such walls and claim victory over them by bringing them down?
I believe most walls are deliberately established and visible, to remind employees (defined by the courts as "Servants") to keep their place as determined by their employer (defined by the courts as "Master").
Because some administration's demonstrate a jerk-like attitude toward their fearful employees does not mean such walls, including walls of indifference, can not be overcome. But it does seem to first require the bus drivers get their ducks in an effective row.
I believe Northwest Schools (Ohio) bus drivers demonstrated how to hold at bay what some would observe as a retaliatory or bully-like superintendent. What happened is at:
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=1052.1
However, in Flagstaff (AZ) seven bus drivers have yet to overcome what some would consider a superintendent's particularly offensive wall of indifference toward safe school bus environments and decent treatment of their school bus drivers. What happened is at:
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=736.1
Strange thing about walls between some administrations and their employees. It seems to take a threatening administration and fearful employees to build such walls. And, it seems to take an administration and their employees turned decent and honorable, and both sometimes courageous, to bring those walls down.
Those that accept the challenge to bring down the walls between their administration and employees are better for it. Those not willing to do the work simply continue a sick legacy, suffering the consequences of their fears, or worse yet, their indifference.
You, at least, and any who want can sniff out and seperate the worst of two lots by understanding these simple attitudes:
"You are just a bus driver."
- and/or -
"I am just a bus driver."
I am the bus driver and my job is to help keep kids safe. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 10/04/2001 09:55:50 AM |
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thomasvista2012
Top Member
USA
747 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2001 : 12:09:05 PM
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In some districts, especially ours, there is a wall between the two.
Drivers are hired in our district as "Non-Instructional" employees, and that title automatically grants us NO RESPECT given to us by school administrators. We are not seen as professionals. In fact, transportation is the dumping ground for all accusastions and blames. Everytime something goes wrong, suddenly transportation is to blame.
That is one thing working in the field that I despie the most. Like MamaLoca said, "Are we not certified by the state, are we not tested" and so on.
Wagonmaster, well he seems comes from a priviledged district. I hope I don't make him mad here, but his case isn't the case in most instances.
All I will say is...the school district and administrators need to INVEST IN THEIR DRIVERS AND TRANSPORTATION EMPLOYEES. True, I have more than bashed my fellow transportation employees in previous posts, maybe, just maybe they'd be more dedicated to their jobs if they were taken interest in and treated like the professionals they are!
"Gotta love those buses!" |
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BusBoss
Senior Member
105 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 05:49:01 AM
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There is no wall between my department and educators/administrators. It is of paramount importance that these two groups work cooperatively on behalf of the students. I have fashioned my department's relationship (I am a Transportation Manager) with school administration to allow that to happen. I won't say there aren't miscommunications or sometimes even, lack of communication - it happens. As with any relationship, you must constantly work at it.
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John Farr
Top Member
USA
642 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 08:55:23 AM
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Several years ago the Federal Mediations and Concilliation Service helped our district implement the Relationships by Objectives (RBO) program. This was in response to perceived "walls" in various areas, especially teaching staff. We had some "walls" in the transportation department, too.
This program required commitment from the top down - and we received that. Following extensive multi-day training together we embarked on a system of consensus-building. Each site has an RBO committee consisting of the site administrator and 4-6 persons designated by the union heads.
The collaboration process is cumbersome and only the most important issues are selected for review. If one member cannot support the group's recommendation, we must "go back to the drawing board" until all can support.
The system really works well. The trust relationship between me and our union reps was good, but is even better.
NO WALLS!
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2001 : 10:11:38 AM
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quote:
... "The trust relationship between me and our union reps was good, but is even better."
I like this. Trust has got to be a major key to successful occupational relationships.
Trust is a natural part of ending adversarial relationships between administrations/employees/unions/parents/kids. But that trust must be based on the knowledge that everyone involved is doing what they are supposed to be doing.
Kids can not accomplish what is expected on the bus without the trust that their bus driver means what he or she says;
Bus drivers can not maintain a healthy school bus environment without the trust that the school and parents are ready and always willing to help keep those kids safe;
Schools and parents can not trust a bus driver that does not keep them informed or fails to ask for help when the bus environment becomes hostile and unsafe.
When it comes to trust there is no generation gap. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 10/04/2001 10:13:30 AM |
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wchazybus
Active Member
13 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 04:46:49 AM
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There are in most operations, some type of walls between management and employees. These walls can be real or imagined, but in either case they need to be breached.
Everyone in a school district needs to be a part of the process of allowing students to reach their potential. This process starts with employees believing that they are a part of the system. Bus drivers need to be made aware of how important they are in the school district.
When a transportation supervisor in unable or unwilling to promote professionalism in the department, the wall gets higher. It is the transportation department's responsibility to let people know what they do, how well they do it and how much they care about being involved in the education process.
School bus drivers are professionals in all definitions except their self-image in most cases. If we can put forth the effort to change the "just a bus driver" attitude, we will go far in breaking down the walls, real or imagined.
Bus driver "Heal Thyself". Let the world know how important you are. Let people know that you are professional. Tear down those walls. FOR THE KIDS!
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/05/2001 : 11:10:32 AM
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quote:
"... School bus drivers are professionals in all definitions except their self-image in most cases.
wchazybus,
Most can agree with much of what was said in your post. I especially like, "It is the transportation department's responsibility to let people know what they do, how well they do it and how much they care about being involved in the education process."
In most cases, but not all, employers cultivate their bus drivers into the mind set, "I'm just a bus driver and my job is just to drive the bus."
Frank, Bus #150 probably said it best in a recent post: I think everyone realizes that there actually is NO school bus driver "shortage". Instead there is a shortage of people willing to work what may be the longest work day of any "part time" job, for poverty level wages, and few, if any benefits. Pay, benefits and respect for the bus drivers time are horrific in most areas.
The concept of a bus drivers profession or trade is a relatively new concept, promoted mostly by a few school bus drivers and expectations from parents.
But such concepts come with a price tag, as is the case in so many other specialized professions and trades. To keep payroll as low as possible the industry must discourage long-term orientated specialized trade concepts. This is simply because those that specialize in a trade often expect higher pay and social recognition beyond what the school bus industry is willing to acknowledge.
Halifax, Nova Scotia, (Canada) is an excellent example of what can happen when cost-cutting is decided more important than experience. You can read about what happened to the school bus drivers in Halifax at:
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=1333.1
Food Clerks or Checkers in major grocery stores make considerable more than cashiers in 7-Elevens and cashiers in major department stores. Food Clerks went from a mission to feed the community to a mission to feed their families as well.
In school districts -- even in some contracted-out areas (Laidlaw & First Student) -- pay is much higher where employees have overcome employer guilt trips about decent pay. These bus drivers had to first understand that their time had value, and secondly, a willingness to work together to establish employer respect for their time and decent payroll and benefits to meet the demands of a specialized trade.
Here is what I believe is reasonable pay, anywhere in the country: Bus driver training at no less than minimum wage; DRIVER1 (trainees and subs) starting at $10PH to a ceiling of around $12.50PH. DRIVER2 (Experienced and longer term career drivers) starting at $12.50 to a ceiling of $21PH.
If these numbers are correct, the reasons should then be obvious as to why it is important to employers bottom-line to make walls that continue suppressing school bus driver recognition and pay. Bus drivers must learn to bring those walls down.
The trade concept is essential to restoring an experienced core of school bus drivers. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 10/17/2001 3:47:13 PM |
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largebus
Advanced Member
USA
468 Posts |
Posted - 10/07/2001 : 5:50:24 PM
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Between school and district administration there is more than an invisible wall there is a solid dark red brick wall. With the Transportation administration (ie the director, Head Driver, office staff, garage, etc) there is less of a problem, but I know many of the drivers have problems with all of the above. They seem just disconnected with what's really going on.
"Getting them there is half the battle" |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 10/09/2001 : 08:55:26 AM
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Sorry to hear so many of you having problems in this area. Sure makes me re-think some of the things we do around here.
Joe
Edited by - wagonmaster on 10/09/2001 09:09:34 AM |
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Amy
New Member
6 Posts |
Posted - 10/10/2001 : 07:26:03 AM
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I am a new driver... just started this year. Our school transportation office monitors the radios so we can contact them OR the company we work for - whichever we need to contact. I've noticed a condescending and rude tone directed at drivers from the transportation office on many occasions. It was totally unnecessary, as sometimes the driver was just requesting a little clarification. I've worked in office administration and customer service positions before choosing to be a driver. I chose driving a school bus in order to work the hours I wished to work. I like the kids and feel that this is more important than any job I had watching over someone else's financial interests.
After going through the training and seeing just how much responsibility and finesse is required in handling a bus filled with darling (sometimes) children - I have a lot of respect for drivers who have done this for years. It is insulting to be talked down to over a radio that broadcasts to over 100 buses, not to mention the scanners in homes throughout our county. If you tell the drivers that you are available to them if they need you, then treat them rudely, what you are really saying is, "I'd like to see you in a position where you need something from me so I can take a luxurious power trip at your expense by belittling you in front of your co-workers, community, and students."
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buswench
Active Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 10:39:25 PM
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Well, this is sure interesting ! The Transportation Directors / Administrators don't have any walls in their environments however the drivers by and large seem to have some walls up in theirs. If I say really loudly PEOPLE.. THE EMPORER IS STILL NAKED... Does it conjur up an image? Are you seeing things that might not be there? Perhaps you don't see things that are there then.. A little understanding for the shoes the other guy is wearing would turn the mortar of the walls into a sandstone that could be broken eh??
The administrator lives in the world of document.. document.. balance the budget, take the complaint calls, apologize for the humanity in the drivers / teachers/ cafeteria workers / maintenance workers/ deans Defend the correctness of the same. Justify pay increases that don't match tax revenues, then find the money. Attend the IEP meetings and find some tactful way that is politically correct to say to a parent,
"I know that the dreams you had for your beautiful child the day they were born are shattered right now.. I know your heart feels as though a dagger has been run through it,BUT,little Johnny is not behaving on the bus either,the same as the classroom, he really does need special services" An administrator knows they are going into a meeting like that only to tear the heart out of a parent.
An adminstrator also knows the true value of a great bus driver. This is the person that represents your school district each and every morning to thousands of people. This person knows not only a stop location, but the students themselves. If driving were the only skill involved with excellence in school bus driving, there would be many more drivers. The excellent school bus driver is in the freshmen games, along with the 3 parents who attend, cheering on the team. An excellent school bus driver takes their vacations during the summer, because they don't want a substitute on their route during the school year. It matters to an excellent school bus driver, if a young student has no way to get into the house, and they don't just drive off. It matters to an excellent administrator that they have to rearrange ideas frequently.
Keeping those people who are excellent in their choice of vocations should be the primary objective of administration. It is doubtful that the tax payers of any given state will fund the schools in a way that acknowledges the service a committed teacher/busdriver/maintenance worker/etc deserves. If money is the bottom line for you, education is probably not where you belong anyway. If you feel right now, that you're a driver, and you're not in education, then probably you're hauling the wrong load right now. Remember, many of the people who are treating you like "just the bus driver", went to school with, and got the same degree as 200 others that are working in the business field right now making considerably more money in a different field. Out of those two hundred, twenty are really financially successful. This causes the teacher/ administrator the same dilemna that you face... money or happiness... Those that still choose the job they are in, respect you for your choice, because they understand your heart. Those that don't are miserable themselves.
Janus
Until
Senior
Transformation
"the bus driver"
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buswench
Active Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/16/2001 : 10:44:43 PM
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Janus - Ancient Roman god of gates and doorways, often depicted with one head facing each direction, always watching for everything.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 3:19:32 PM
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quote:
If money is the bottom line for you, education is probably not where you belong anyway. If you feel right now, that you're a driver, and you're not in education, then probably you're hauling the wrong load right now. Remember, many of the people who are treating you like "just the bus driver", went to school with, and got the same degree as 200 others that are working in the business field right now making considerably more money in a different field. Out of those two hundred, twenty are really financially successful. This causes the teacher/administrator the same dilemna that you face... money or happiness... Those that still choose the job they are in, respect you for your choice, because they understand your heart. Those that don't are miserable themselves. --Janus, Until Senior Transformation, "the bus driver"
Janus,
Your post is an excellent way to present the work of great administrators and their appreciation for their employees. I would even say that your presentation, concerning the trials and tribulations of public school administrators, is probably among the best I've read any where -- until arriving at the quoted part above.
That part of the post looks straight from the hip, direct, honest, real life and all that. But for those that refuse the guilt trip response, every time they dare talk about providing a decent living for their family, they understand and are annoyed by what was said in the last part of your post.
"money or happiness" -- Rubbish -- Neither one is relevant to the other.
Money is an external bartering device that can help pay the rent, provides some food, clothing and what ever else the family is looking for.
Mature happiness comes first from within and is not, in reality, dependent on the external.
I've yet to meet a career bus driver where money was his or her bottom line. That characteristic is most often found among administrations and school boards -- not school bus drivers. For bus drivers, money comes up a distant #2 on the list, "The #1 reason school bus drivers quit."
A lack of respect and honor toward the school bus driver's efforts -- and including respect for the bus drivers time as reflected appropriately in their payroll -- may be one of the the primary reasons for school bus driver disenchantment. It has nothing to do with what parents think. Informed parents are endlessly supportive.
The maltreatment of school bus drivers comes much more so from administrations and school boards than from parents. I believe maltreatment is the actual reason for the school bus driver shortage in this country.
I can also believe the golden days of suppressing decent school bus driver incomes, and denial of the actual time drivers spend on the job, is nearing a conclusion. The school bus driving job is maturing into a trade, not just a job.
Across this country school bus drivers are beginning to make noise. It will take a lot more oil than a cost-of-living squirt to quiet those bus drivers wheels and make the bus wheels go round-n-round. (jk)
Just a note: Your description of administrator tasks and tribulations can also represent an excellent description of bus driver tasks and tribulations. No wall there.
The #1 Reason School Bus Drivers quit:
http://forums.delphi.com/n/mb/message.asp?webtag=2safeschools&msg=565.1
Edited by - jk on 10/18/2001 12:53:43 PM |
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buswench
Active Member
USA
38 Posts |
Posted - 10/17/2001 : 6:57:52 PM
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The point that I was hoping to make earlier, is that funding in the entire realm of school business,does not reflect the supposed commitment we (as a collective whole) have for education. Yes some administrators have really healthy paychecks, but some also have doctorate degrees with vast resources and knowledge and some could make five times their salary, if they chose business over education. A bus driver that drove mail around would make 3 times the paycheck. An aide that assisted in a county jail would make 3 times the salary. A mechanic that works for the city would make 2 to 3 times their salary. Teachers that chose to teach in a private college would make twice the money, with half the headaches. An administrator that can balance a school budget, and keep the many different groups running, would make 2 to 3 times their salary as a CEO of a large company. I understand and acknowledge that there are some unscrupulous individuals in the school business, just as there are in every business. I just wholeheartedly disagree with ideas like funding the study of art such as piss Jesus (controversial artwork at Chicago Art Museum with a large grant given by the US govt.), while not funding the entire educational system.
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2001 : 11:33:08 AM
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quote:
The point that I was hoping to make earlier, is that funding in the entire realm of school business,does not reflect the supposed commitment we (as a collective whole) have for education. Yes some administrators have really healthy paychecks, but some also have doctorate degrees with vast resources and knowledge and some could make five times their salary, if they chose business over education. A bus driver that drove mail around would make 3 times the paycheck. An aide that assisted in a county jail would make 3 times the salary. A mechanic that works for the city would make 2 to 3 times their salary. Teachers that chose to teach in a private college would make twice the money, with half the headaches. An administrator that can balance a school budget, and keep the many different groups running, would make 2 to 3 times their salary as a CEO of a large company. I understand and acknowledge that there are some unscrupulous individuals in the school business, just as there are in every business. I just wholeheartedly disagree with ideas like funding the study of art such as piss Jesus (controversial artwork at Chicago Art Museum with a large grant given by the US govt.), while not funding the entire educational system.
Maybe it's just me, and I mean no offense, but it seems the quote above contradicts some of what was said in an earlier post.
I can agree that, "Yes some administrators have really healthy paychecks." Too healthy in my opinion. I happen to believe that no public school district superintendent should be paid more than 10% above the highest scale for school teachers in that district. What happened to the "money or happiness... Those that still choose the job they are in, respect you for your choice, because they understand your heart." ??
The concept just mentioned seldom has a place among school administrators, simply because so many superintendents and other administrators are paid far and above what is necessary for a very comfortable living.
It seems obvious that the present system of invisible and visible walls are not working, certainly not when teachers are dropping out of public school at a greater rate than students. Yet, relatively new teachers incomes are far above that of many experienced schools bus drivers incomes. Where are all these teachers going? And why?
Meanwhile, a great many school bus drivers live in poverty, their families do without. In some areas bus driver wages or time are cut even more, while raises go to administrators and other school staff.
I can wholeheartedly agree that administrations often waste funds doing things like "...funding the study of art such as piss Jesus (controversial artwork at Chicago Art Museum with a large grant given by the US govt.), while not funding the entire educational system." But these issues, as well as the entire realm of school business, seem to be for a separate thread.
"Is there an invisible wall separating school transportation personnel from educators and administrators?" I believe there are a variety of walls, contesting only that these walls are not invisible.
Low budget transportation concepts and walls are visible, can be hostile and continue to eat away at the livelihoods of school transportation's core experienced drivers. While this nation's level of core experience has been declining school bus related deaths are on the increase -- So much so that crash investigators now mention that they look closely at the bus driver's experience when investigating bus accidents. (Didn't hear bus driver experience as a primary interest until just recently. Actually, previously heard that experience was not that relevant.)
School bus drivers, like administrators want to stay, they want to work. School bus drivers, just like some school and district administrators and teachers, simply want to be able to earn enough to provide for their families. No wall there.
Have a nice day. (jk)
Edited by - jk on 10/18/2001 1:11:18 PM |
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MamaLoca
Advanced Member
USA
400 Posts |
Posted - 10/18/2001 : 4:23:43 PM
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I am truly impressed with the responses to this question. I also see that each group seems to be fairly consistant in thier opinions. I don't think the intent was to imply that one group has more invested in our respective jobs than another. Sure we could all go to the private sector and make our millions. That's not the point.
We choose to work with the children. It is our investment in the future. Any adult who takes or makes the time to touch a child's life makes a difference. The idea that a School bus driver is not an intigral part of the team is insulting.
I have a great boss and head bus driver/trainer. They do thier best with the resources they are alotted. The idea that proper funding for transportation takes resources away from education is counter productive. These kids are learning important social interactive skills on the bus.
A well trained, dedicated driver overseas this far better than a disgruntled, underappreciated driver.
Along with insuring safe transportation, drivers and administration could and should make strides towards providing a professional environment that shows it's appreciation, both spiritually and monitarily, to everyone involved.
Smile, it makes people wonder what you're up to. |
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Busrepair
Senior Member
121 Posts |
Posted - 10/23/2001 : 1:19:56 PM
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I believe we, at times, feel that there is a wall because of certain decisions that are made. The only advice is if there is it is a wall created on both sides. If you do not try and only complain it will not get any better. The best thing is to try to have administration stop back and speak with the drivers on issues. It has to start somewhere. Go to your supervisor, pick a day to have a carry in breakfast, and invite the administrators to it. To just sit around and complain does not help. The drivers here have went as far as inviting the superintendent to ride on a bus route (which she did).
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JK
Top Member
USA
7307 Posts |
Posted - 09/30/2012 : 6:07:48 PM
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Incredible, this thread is over a decade old. Are we better off today than 12 years ago?
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Topic |
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The gap between administration and transportation
