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BusBoy 1
Advanced Member
USA
212 Posts |
 Posted - 11/03/2004 : 7:18:42 PM
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Howdy all
I have a Question about recap tires I have worked on buses for 10yrs now and I have always stood strong on using virgin tires on our buses well like a lot of schools in our state we have had to make budget cuts so I started using Recaps on the rear of some of our route only buses and that saves alot of money. I have not had a failure to this point. Now the question I have is I have alot of recaps on hand and one of our route/activity buses needs new rear tires and I was thinking of putting them on this bus is a rear eng bus and I was a little concerned about the extra weight. the bus is a 60 pass and the most kids on an average trip would be 25 to 30 our longest highway travel would be about 100 miles oneway on this bus. What do you guys think would I chance failures. I would like to know what others think of recaps. THANKS!! |
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Brad Barker
Administrator
USA
874 Posts |
Posted - 11/03/2004 : 7:30:27 PM
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I watch my recaps fairly close and have had good success with them as long as I stay within the limitations that I have set. I never cap a tire that is older than five years old and never cap a tire more than twice. If a casing has had a sidewall injury it gets junked. I do run them on my local route buses with rear engines but not on my long trip buses. I have had some failures on trip buses that have been costly. Only new tires on them. I prefer Michelin virgin rubber because the casings last longer for capping purposes. I have used BF Goodrich, Bridgestone, Continental and General in the past. I pay less than $90 for a capped tire and only buy tread designs that have 26/32 of rubber.
Brad |
Brad A. Barker |
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wagonmaster
Top Member
USA
2298 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 06:54:31 AM
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We use exclusively recaps on the rear of our buses, including those on long trips. We even pull the new tires off of the rear of new buses and put recaps on them to utilize those new tires more efficiently. If you buy top quality caps and put them on top quality casings, you're good to go! We have been using Goodyear and Michelin casings , mostly Michelin for years with great results. Like Brad, five years is MAX on the casing, although we would cap them three times if we could in that time frame, but usually we can't get that many due to the time limit. We use a Bandag "cold" process 22/32" tread as a minimum and it will wear AT LEAST as well as original tread XZE Michelins on the drives of my RE units. Use them with confidence. When you see a failure, and you will evenually, it is usually NOT the recap that fails, but rather the casing that has failed. Need to analyze them carefully.
Good luck!
Joe |
Joe
Land of the Free, because of the Brave! |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 11/04/2004 : 08:40:16 AM
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We used to run re-caps on the rear as well. We would even pull the virgin drives off (XZAs) use them for steer tires, and intall caps on the rear of our new equipment. Then two things happened. First, I took over the shop, and second I actually sat down one day with the tire guy and figured out all the numbers.
We don't even consider a recap anymore. It's finantially a lose-lose proposition for us. That alone was enough, but if you read ALL the MN school bus inspection and specification manual, you will find that you CANNOT use "repaired" tires in ANY position, even if recapped. No plugs, patches, sidewall repairs, boots nothing.
Basically, caps were running about $90, and we got 60,000-70,000 miles from them, and the casings were only worth $20 as "Bs". Virgin tires were $240-$260 and we got 90,000-110,000 miles from them, and they were worth $85-$95 as "A" casings. Add in the failures, the number of tires lost to damage, the number we had to buy because we could not run repaired casings, and it was totally a lose-lose deal. That did not even factor in weather checking, cap seperations, or the additional labor to change more tires every year.
Using "high side" numbers, $260-$90 = $170, 170/100,000 = $0.0017/mi.
Where $90-$20 = $70, $70/65,000 = $0.00107/mile. Add back that about 20% or so of the recaps were "purchased" due to the turn-ins being damaged, the cost for those is (Casing $90 + Cap $90 - $10 (turn in credit)) = $170. $170/65,000 = $0.002615/mile.
As you can see, if you have to purchase even a small number or casings, or have yours repaired, it gets very expensive and quickly.
We run XZE's for steer tires, and XDAs for drives (or the BFG equivelant if they are "on sale"). We get excellant service from thses tires, few problems with cords or unusual wear. We also check the toe every summer and adjust as needed. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 11/04/2004 08:49:50 AM |
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Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 11/08/2004 : 8:07:59 PM
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| Mod Mech, I dont know how you can justify savings by buying new tires. Especially in your situation, not being able to use a repaired tire, the losses are even greater. Every time you get a nail hole or sidewall cut you loose up to $260 vs. $180. Its a shame your state is so stupid with their regs. Testing has proved that a properly repaired tire will be stronger in the repaired area than the rest of the tire.http://www.retread.org/packet/index.cfm/ID/16.htm |
Edited by - Joe Hartnett on 11/08/2004 8:56:54 PM |
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Craig Thoricht
Senior Member
USA
177 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 04:05:27 AM
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IMHO-
Our small district(4800 students- 31 buses) ditched caps exactly for the reasons outlined by Mod Mech. We also had to consider we only have 2 mechanics for the buses plus 26 other vehicles. If we had the luxury of more people we could perhaps get into studying this more closely.
Arguments can be made to justify capping but it just does not make sense to us.
Craig |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 07:14:38 AM
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Joe,
We typically get at least $150 for a "damaged" tire with good tread left, and almost nothing for a cap in similar condition. The damage rate of virgin tires if WAY less than with caps, I really don't understand how that can be, but we get VERY few flats now. A few per year on over 100 units. The weather cracking issue, is also no longer an issue. We used to cap, and we would only be able to run most Michelin caps to about 6 years old before the sidewalls were getting rotton, the GY's were 3-5 years depending on the year of Mfgr. As we all know, a badly weather-cracked tire is worthless for trade-in, but still legal and useable. Add to that the reduction in our shop's tire labor, and it is clearly a win-win for us. If you put more miles/year on them, I'm sure that would change things. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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rswboe
Top Member
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 10:24:47 AM
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| 60 TO 70K on a rear tire? Are you guys running mostly highway, or rural? I can't get more than 40k on ANY tire position. We are urban / suburban. I've tried every major brand, and settled on Bridgestone, they seem to run the best here. |
Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right! |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 3:05:18 PM
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| We run 12R22.5 XZU-2's, and siped Bandag OmniBus caps. We only cap one time, and don't run anything with more than a standard nailhole repair (and only on the rear). The Michelins get 45,000-60,000 depending on the driver. We can drag out more by moving the fronts to rears w/ 8/32nd left. This keeps fresh tires up front. We run caps on about 50% of the big bus fleet on non-trip buses. We're also running several sets of BS's. The R250's don't do as well in our fleet, but they're ok. We rarely junk a tire out, usually due to road hazzards. Like running into a grader blade! But to the original question on retreading...I have no problem running caps. My Bandag dealear does good work, and the product and costs work for me. |
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3116
New Member
USA
5 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 10:49:57 PM
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Michelin has the XZESA cap it has a solid shoulder to help withstand scrub. We get good life out of them. I like Michelins they have a thick sidewall and they bead up easy 
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 11/09/2004 : 10:56:36 PM
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rswboe,
10R22.5 XDAs in city bus service, w/11R22.5s we get 90-120,000. We've switched to mostly 11R now. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
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flyboy
Senior Member
USA
147 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 10:34:30 AM
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| We run over 180 school buses of all sizes from 36 pass to 84 pass conventionals as well as transit(type D) both front and rear engine. We run only recaps on the rear after the original tires wear out. We have virtually no failures except for the run flats or damaged sidewalls. We specify only the Bandag,(cold cap)type process and only on our own casings which are Michelin,Bridgestone or Goodyear. We only cap twice and then scrap the casing. We save a bunch on tires by using caps,and apparently so do most heavy truck operators. Caps are safe and economical when you do it right. |
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rswboe
Top Member
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 10:51:13 AM
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| We run 10R's & 11R's, but we don't get nearly the mileages I see some of you posting. I wonder if it's an application problem, or a local condition. Most of the local shops I talk to in this region have similar experiences to mine, and fairly comparable mileages. |
Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right! |
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Mechan1c
Top Member
USA
853 Posts |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 5:47:22 PM
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Richard,
I've always felt that solid outer ribs like 3116 mentioned, and like the XDA's Mod runs, as well as the XZU-2, help a lot. Also, going from the minimum tire needed to cover the load, to one size up makes a considerable treadlife improvement. An example is going up to an 11R22.5 from a 10R22.5. Or in my case 11R22.5 to a 12. The increase in footprint makes a huge difference. The price difference is easily justified by the lower operating costs. Proper air pressure is also important. Use a load and inflation table to detirmine what's optimum for your buses. Tom. |
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ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 11/13/2004 : 12:40:30 PM
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Mechan1c brings up a good point about sizing and inflations.
Here are more of our specifics.
Size: 11R22.5
Brand/model: Michelin/ S: XZE, R: XDA (or XDHT)
Inflation: S: 75, D: 80 (conventional 71/77 pass); S:90, D: 80 FE; S:80, D:90 RE (only have 2)
Our steer tires last a minimum of 50,000 miles, and the drives a min. of 95,000. All "inner city" routes w/potholes etc., and a 2-5 mile drive from the terminal to the route. I have recorded as many as 65,000 miles on steer tires, and 115,000 on drives (set). We rotate inner to outer every brake job, and side to side in front at 11/32 or so. |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
Edited by - ModMech on 11/13/2004 12:42:54 PM |
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Recaps
