| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
 Posted - 03/17/2004 : 5:42:13 PM
|
| We purchased our 9, 5.9ISB's in 2000 and 2001 and have had all but 1 injection and lift pump fail. At that rate of failure I belive that Cummins should have recalled these fuel systems, thus preventing breakdown on the highways. This has cost over $1400.00 just in towing costs let alone down time. We also found out that our local Freightliner dealer was not authorised to repair this engine under warranty and had to have two re-towed from there to Cummins. Im suprised no one has posted the same complaint. I have never had pump failures on the 9.0L's,DT360's,DT466's,DT466E's and 3126B's. The only pumps we have ever replaced were on 6.9's and 7.3's and that has been awhile ago. |
|
|
charwood
Active Member
12 Posts |
Posted - 03/17/2004 : 9:07:07 PM
|
HI JOE,
WE HAVE 14 5.9 ISB ENGINES FROM 1999 TO 2003. WE HAVE ONLY HAD ONE FAILURE. THAT WAS A LIFT PUMP ON ONE OF THE 1999 MODELS. STRANGE PROBLEM...I WOULD THINK THAT CUMMINS WOULD WANT TO BE FINDING OUT WHAT'S GOING ON...GOOD LUCK!
WOODY |
 |
|
|
Craig Thoricht
Senior Member
USA
177 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 04:46:09 AM
|
Joe-
We have 6 ISB's and one of those Bosch injection pumps failed. Replaced under warranty, but you do raise an interesting question. Why doesn't Cummins or Bosch admit an obvious problem? I'm guessing but perhaps the same legal type that won't allow them to admit oil leakage problems on these same engines was consulted for this as well.
I also wonder if this is a Bluebird specific problem because of the installation of the engine. |
|
|
|
rswboe
Top Member
USA
675 Posts |
Posted - 03/18/2004 : 09:53:13 AM
|
| I have about 20 ISB's in my fleet, and we have had very few problems with these engines. I had two ECM failures and two or three lift pumps. This is since '99, most of these units are 50k+ at present. All were repaired under warranty. |
Live each like it's going to be your last, one day you'll be right! |
|
|
|
Isellbuses
Top Member
Canada
828 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2004 : 10:40:52 AM
|
Here is something to look for. I have been to see three customers and the problem seems to be stemming from a couple of areas.
In the case of Freightliner or Blue Bird the failure rate is in the 70% range for lift pumps and 30% for injector pumps with REAR CENTRE FRAME MOUNTED FUEL TANKS. By that I mean behind the rear axle.
In the case of Blue Bird TCs with side mounted tanks the failures are almost nonexistent. We only had side mounted fuel tanks with the new lift pumps on the ISB engines for a year, but it really does seem to be a problem with rear mounted fuel tanks. The problem seems to be from the distance the fuel is pushed and pulled so to speak. The pumps were designed for a smaller distance.
|
|
|
|
Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/24/2004 : 5:01:07 PM
|
| I was wondering myself if the rear mtd. tank was contributing to the failures. The Cummins people havent said anything about it an have been repairing under warranty. Havent seen any failure with 7 Cat 3126B's from same year, with same fuel tanks. Im wondering what the fuel inlet restriction is reading and what the spec is. I also wouldn't expect the failures to be happening to the injection pumps, only the transfer pumps. |
|
|
|
wrenchmen
Senior Member
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2004 : 5:43:10 PM
|
...this is old news for me!..I have openly complained on this forum about the unreliability of the cummins ISB...from fuel and oil leaks to the electric transfer pump and VP44 injection pump failures...our fleet was plaqued with these failures...most start off as a low power complaint and a code 368..ecm cannot control vp44 timing...or something close to that...so out it goes for warranty and they only replace the electric transfer pump...{which if you do this yourself...make sure you get the small wiring harness as, the old pump had the wires hanging off a couple inches..and the new one has the connector right on the pump}...then several days later...problems again..now VP44 is bad...so out it goes again.
Some would have code 368 and could be driven back in a derated mode, others would completeley fail and had a code that said..VP44 internal error..must be serviced by bosch.
the theory is that since this VP44 is completley lubricated by fuel, a fuel supply problem, like bad transfer pump, or running out of fuel can cause internal damage.
I have heard of the possible location of the fuel tanks being a concern BUT...there are many unhappy dodge pickup truck owners with this same problem..and there tanks are nowhere near as far from the engine as a school bus...these guys went so far as to install aux. fuel tanks in there pickup beds and replace the cummins tranfer pumps with holley high volumn race pumps..and I dont believe it made a difference....I will see if I can find those topics and link them.
I too cannot believe there has not been a class action suit against cummins for this unreliable system.
These problems caused us to spec Cat on all our new buses..we have about 40 cats now and have had oil leaks at the oil cooler gaskets and some leaking HUEI oil lines...but deffinatley not as much problems as we have with these ISB's |
|
|
|
wrenchmen
Senior Member
USA
115 Posts |
|
|
wrenchmen
Senior Member
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 03/25/2004 : 6:29:48 PM
|
more interesting reads...these guys all own dodge pickups and are petitoning chrysler to do something about these failures...they all believe the location of the fuel tank is the problem...one guy said the spec for this transfer pump..{made by carter for cummins}..is supposd to be located 3' from the fuel source...I dont know where he got this info..But..like I said before..in a school bus, front or rear engine, Truck or piece of off-road equipment...the fuel tank is Alot further than in a pickup truck. If this is in fact the problem, this is a Huge issue that will affect many different vehicles.
check it out.....http://www.turbodieselregister.com/forums/showthread.php?s=70be9085b13cb51ff82fdd2043ab074b&threadid=75368 |
|
|
|
Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 03/26/2004 : 6:40:12 PM
|
| Wrench, thanks for the great info. Lots of kids and drivers will be stranded by this problem, I just hope their not on a highway or railroad tracks. It sounds like reporting each failure to the NHTSA would be the proper step to take. The Dodge pick up truck guys are installing fuel pressure guages to give them a heads up on a failure. Im wondering if fuel pressure should be checked at each filer change. One note on the Cat 3126B, we have had 3 or 4 of the high pressure oil line failures out of 7 (2001 model years). |
|
|
|
Isellbuses
Top Member
Canada
828 Posts |
Posted - 04/01/2004 : 1:37:05 PM
|
I am just curious why you want Cummins in the first place. We have had no issues with T444E and DT466 engines. The IC uses the DT466 in the FE and both in the CE 200. The new CE300 has the VT365. Cummins was good and relatively reliable, but we always had fuel pump and injector pump issues. Do you remember the radial pumps???????
Every now and then gas still seems like an option, but then I look at the price $3.50 a gallon here in Canada. Oh well, we should have kept Persia after the first world war.
:) |
|
|
|
ModMech
Top Member
USA
948 Posts |
Posted - 04/02/2004 : 08:26:08 AM
|
The Navistar engines are by no means problem free. The PSD (444s) have injector problems and valve cover electrical issues, the New DTs have oil rail leaks, and waterpump/front cover problems. None of these however are nearly as bad as the latest Cummins stuff (I resisted typing junk). The VT365 is a whole different game however. They have been PLAGUED with issues, granted moreso in the Ford products than Navistar. I hear things are pretty much "worked out" on engines produced after Nov. '03.
I WANT THE DT 360 BACK!!! |
If you want customer service, you NEED an International! |
|
|
|
cowtown
New Member
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 04/06/2004 : 06:18:21 AM
|
| We continue to have problems with the Cummins ISB Pumps...WHY? The transfer pump goes and it's fixed under warranty, you know the injection pump is next but they won't replace until it fails.......most times within the month and sometimes a couple of blocks after leaving their shop.I have approx. 200 of these and over 80 are coming off warranty....scary. |
Harry Davis |
|
|
|
BigDaddyT
New Member
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 04:23:39 AM
|
I am a dodge owner and am very familiar with the transfer pump issue. If the pressure drops below specs it can damage the injection pump. The spec is 8psi under load at wot for those interested. The specific pump used in the dodge application is in a out of spec location. We have found that installing a high volume low pressure fuel pump near the tank that the problem can be eliminated completely. This will bring up reliability to levels that you would expect.
Cummins and DC have said very little. They have through emails admitted that the vp44 was a disappointment in its first few years. It MAY have been designed for fuel with more lubricity. The lift pump is cheaper to replace than recall. So they ignore it. Most dont know it is failing til after the warranty is up. I have installed a full time fuel pressure guage so that I may moniter my fuel pressure. It is cost effective for me as it protects the 1400 dollar injection pump from running with insufficient lubrication.
Good luck. I hope you can fix your problems. |
|
|
|
Sticks
New Member
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 05:30:47 AM
|
I am another Dodge truck owner that has gone through the Lift Pump (LP) and VP44 replacement. First the LP was replaced, and the dealer ignored the injector pump error codes in the ECM. 3k miles later and a different dealer, another LP was replaced along with the VP44. The weak VP forced the LP to work harder than it was designed to and burned it out.
Along with what BigDaddyT said, there are a number of us (Dodge truck owners) that have either installed an after market fuel pump on the frame rail, or simply relocated the OEM pump just forward of the fuel tank, upgraded the fuel lines to 1/2" all the way to the VP44, and installed a fuel pressure gauge. That I know of, there has not been another failure of a VP44 with the upgraded systems that are being used.
Just the installation of the fuel pressure gauge alone is enough to keep an eye on the health of the system and get the repairs/replacement done before serious damage occurs.
Every engine out there has it's own particular issues that can cause down time and expense. This is the major 5.9 ISB issue, and a couple of easy fixes. |
|
|
|
Jeff Miller
Active Member
USA
25 Posts |
Posted - 04/09/2004 : 2:32:17 PM
|
| We have 9 ISB's rangeing fromm 98 to 2000. Of those only one has it's original engine and none of them have an original vp44 injector pump. We also go through lift pumps on them apx every 1200 hr.s They are in a 35 ft bus made by collins and seem to be extremely underpowered for this application. The fuel tanks are mounted in the front half of the bus (rear engine ).We sit at 9600 ft above sea level and I think this may have something to do with our short engine life. We also have 5 new ISB's ( not my decision to buy cummins engines again), of those we have lost one that had only 60,000 miles on it. I should say that our old ISB's died at anywhere from 55,000 miles to 70,000 miles.We are currently arguing with cummins about warranty, they are denying responsibility. I would strongly recommend against the ISB in any heavy duty application |
|
|
|
cowtown
New Member
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 08:37:43 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigDaddyT
I am a dodge owner and am very familiar with the transfer pump issue. If the pressure drops below specs it can damage the injection pump. The spec is 8psi under load at wot for those interested. The specific pump used in the dodge application is in a out of spec location. We have found that installing a high volume low pressure fuel pump near the tank that the problem can be eliminated completely. This will bring up reliability to levels that you would expect.
Cummins and DC have said very little. They have through emails admitted that the vp44 was a disappointment in its first few years. It MAY have been designed for fuel with more lubricity. The lift pump is cheaper to replace than recall. So they ignore it. Most dont know it is failing til after the warranty is up. I have installed a full time fuel pressure guage so that I may moniter my fuel pressure. It is cost effective for me as it protects the 1400 dollar injection pump from running with insufficient lubrication.
Good luck. I hope you can fix your problems.
|
Harry Davis |
|
|
|
cowtown
New Member
Canada
7 Posts |
Posted - 04/12/2004 : 08:40:35 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by BigDaddyT
I am a dodge owner and am very familiar with the transfer pump issue. If the pressure drops below specs it can damage the injection pump. The spec is 8psi under load at wot for those interested. The specific pump used in the dodge application is in a out of spec location. We have found that installing a high volume low pressure fuel pump near the tank that the problem can be eliminated completely. This will bring up reliability to levels that you would expect.
Cummins and DC have said very little. They have through emails admitted that the vp44 was a disappointment in its first few years. It MAY have been designed for fuel with more lubricity. The lift pump is cheaper to replace than recall. So they ignore it. Most dont know it is failing til after the warranty is up. I have installed a full time fuel pressure guage so that I may moniter my fuel pressure. It is cost effective for me as it protects the 1400 dollar injection pump from running with insufficient lubrication.
Good luck. I hope you can fix your problems.
What type, model and brand of "high volume low pressure fuel pump" did you use?
THX
Harry |
Harry Davis |
|
|
|
LPRESTON
Active Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 07:51:54 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Hartnett
We purchased our 9, 5.9ISB's in 2000 and 2001 and have had all but 1 injection and lift pump fail. At that rate of failure I belive that Cummins should have recalled these fuel systems, thus preventing breakdown on the highways. This has cost over $1400.00 just in towing costs let alone down time. We also found out that our local Freightliner dealer was not authorised to repair this engine under warranty and had to have two re-towed from there to Cummins. Im suprised no one has posted the same complaint. I have never had pump failures on the 9.0L's,DT360's,DT466's,DT466E's and 3126B's. The only pumps we have ever replaced were on 6.9's and 7.3's and that has been awhile ago.
|
|
|
|
LPRESTON
Active Member
USA
10 Posts |
Posted - 04/21/2004 : 07:53:57 AM
|
quote:
Originally posted by Joe Hartnett
We purchased our 9, 5.9ISB's in 2000 and 2001 and have had all but 1 injection and lift pump fail. At that rate of failure I belive that Cummins should have recalled these fuel systems, thus preventing breakdown on the highways. This has cost over $1400.00 just in towing costs let alone down time. We also found out that our local Freightliner dealer was not authorised to repair this engine under warranty and had to have two re-towed from there to Cummins. Im suprised no one has posted the same complaint. I have never had pump failures on the 9.0L's,DT360's,DT466's,DT466E's and 3126B's. The only pumps we have ever replaced were on 6.9's and 7.3's and that has been awhile ago.
WE ARE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS. WE HAVE 6 TRANSIT ISB 5.9 THAT WE PURCHASED IN 1999-2001. WE HAVE HAD 4 OR 5 OF THESE FAIL THE FUEL PUMPS. SOME REPLACED UNDER WARRANTY NOW IT IS OUR OUT OF POCKET EXPENSE AND IT HAS COST US PLENTY ALSO. |
|
|
|
wrenchmen
Senior Member
USA
115 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 07:14:38 AM
|
The VP44 saga continues.....
Just had a 2002 BlueBird TC2000 quit running on the road...active
code 368, VP44 error...this bus has 51,000 miles on it.
2 more 2002's in our fleet also have intermittant {inactive}
code 368's....hopefully I can schedule them for repair before
they quit running. |
|
|
|
Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member
USA
4177 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 3:31:22 PM
|
| The bus I normally ride to school, an 84 passenger 2000 Thomas MVP EF, called it quits today for this reason. Apparently a similar bus has been at the dealer for over a month for this problem as well. |
Mike's Bus Yard - http://buses.zwebpages.com - Since 1999
|
|
|
|
Joe Hartnett
Advanced Member
USA
359 Posts |
Posted - 04/28/2004 : 7:03:12 PM
|
| More bad news on this engine. The basic warranty is limited to 100,000 miles and extended warranty dosen't cover the fuel pumps. |
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
5.9 ISB Injection & Lift Pump Failures
