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PHW
Top Member

USA
1345 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2004 :  2:37:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Feb. 5, 2004 01:22 PM

RICHLAND TOWNSHIP, Mich. - A 12-year-old girl was recovering Thursday after being stabbed seven times while riding a school bus, apparently by a teenage girl who randomly chose her as someone to try and kill, a law enforcement officer said.

The victim, a seventh-grader at Gull Lake Middle School, was taken to a hospital and treated for her injuries, said Lt. Terry VanStreain of the Kalamazoo County Sheriff's Department.

VanStreain said the 15-year-old suspect, a freshman at Gull Lake High School, was in custody at the Kalamazoo County Juvenile Home.

The sheriff's department asked the county prosecutor's office to file charges of attempted murder, carrying a concealed weapon and carrying a weapon in a school zone.

The teenager told police that she had been thinking about hurting or killing someone "for some time" and decided to take a steak knife to school on Wednesday, the lieutenant told the Kalamazoo Gazette.

story @ http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0205schoolbus-stab05-ON.html

CrownBus1
Top Member

USA
633 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2004 :  4:07:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is absolutely HORRIBLE! I hope that whoever did this receives adequate punishment.

Bus 1
1985 Crown
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92FrdCarp#11
Top Member

USA
1455 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2004 :  4:31:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit 92FrdCarp#11's Homepage  Send 92FrdCarp#11 an AOL message  Click to see 92FrdCarp#11's MSN Messenger address  Send 92FrdCarp#11 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I am glad that the bus driver did the right thing.

Johnny

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musicalmechanic
Active Member

USA
29 Posts

Posted - 02/07/2004 :  07:35:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It's a scary world out there. I know that I'm a mechanic for one of the schools in the Cleveland area who just got hired about 8 months ago (by the way, I love my job). My boss literally has a cabinet full of knives and other weapons that he found on the bus. He's been working here about 25 years, and he's had to call the cops probably a dozen times for finding a gun just laying on the bus. Personally, I don't think they pay drivers nearly enough in some areas.
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Bevey
Active Member

USA
37 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2004 :  03:00:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bevey's Homepage  Click to see Bevey's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
It all boils down to one question...why aren't the parents involved in this child's life?

Morals are all shot out the window and no one seems to take time to spend with their children and love them as parents should.
People ask, "Why does this have to happen?"
Answer: Public schools kicked GOD out of school.

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Tmac0384
Advanced Member

USA
375 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2004 :  3:44:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Tmac0384's Homepage  Send Tmac0384 an AOL message  Send Tmac0384 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
ok, how completely horrible & tradgic for the poor victim who didn't do anything to provoke this incident! my heart goes out to her. as for the suspect, 'what the hell is wrong with her crazy a$$?' (my opinion) what kind of things was this suspect doing in her free time to make her ever think of such a horrible act? that girl needs some severe psychological help, NOW! and i bet that her parents aren't to involved in her life, that's probably why she committed such an act?! well at least it was only one victim and not the whole bus, driver included! i just hope the victim recovers quickly with ease. and as far as the suspect, keep her a$$ locked up. because who knows if she'll ever try to attempt something like this again!?

sometimes older is way better than new.




some photos of mine: http://community.webshots.com/user/Bus213
(it's a work in progress... tons of photos to come!)
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2004 :  7:07:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bevey

Answer: Public schools kicked GOD out of school.



Although it remains possible, I'm convinced that God or no God in that school likely does not result in this kind of behavior. That bible story that includes Cain - how much God did that kid have in his life? And what better parents are there than Cain's parents in that story? Parents involved or not involved with this kid is not relevant to this kind of act, in my opinion. For all we know she may come from a Christian ethic family. Right now she may be a kid, but in few years she will certainly be an adult and I believe a killer. She has killing in her heart - a thrill seeker at the expense of another's life. Shrinks have a name for those they can't explain or help - Freaks of Nature! I'm no shrink - regardless I would consider this kid a high risk future repeat offender and not correctable. She belongs under 100 percent supervision for perhaps the remainder of her life. I would jump on the band wagon in a heartbeat to support that kid put on trial as an adult. My mom used to say: "If the devil lies to you don't believe him! And if the devil tells you the truth don't believe him! Even when she is truthful she's a liar, in my opinion, and not to be trusted. She's a lier and a murderer ... her lies in court would help open the door to her killing someone in the future.

I have no objection to the Christian ethic in our public schools, including God stuff posted here and there, and including the Ten Commandments. Regardless, I'm not convinced that God or human council would do much in this case. (jk)

Click Here to find out The #1 reason some school buses are violent places



There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.


Edited by - JK on 10/23/2005 12:13:55 PM
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MrsBuslady
Active Member

Canada
28 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2004 :  8:16:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How horrible for all the students and driver on that bus. One thing to remember is, the one who did the stabbing is still a child. Not to say what she did is acceptable in any way, but she must be EXTREMELY mentally disturbed to stab that girl. She was laughing when police arrived, she WANTED to kill someone. No one knows her family situation, but generally, severe mental illness isn't always the fault of parents. It sounds like she has a bi-polar disorder. Too many children today are getting rytalin and not being treated for mental disorders. She needs to undergoe a full mental assessment, hopefully she can be treated and become a normal adult. In fact, all those kids on that bus need counselling!
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2004 :  9:03:39 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBuslady

... It sounds like she has a bi-polar disorder. Too many children today are getting rytalin and not being treated for mental disorders. She needs to undergoe a full mental assessment, hopefully she can be treated and become a normal adult.


What difference at this point what the brain condition is? No shrink I know of, and I've encountered a few excellent shrinks in my Ombudsman and state work would ever guarantee any drug or therapy would somehow make that kid a normal adult. The nature of the act itself at near maturity can be sufficient to declare an anomaly that requires lifetime supervision. Off the medication or lifetime therapy and away she goes looking for a target. I suppose it would be alright for her to live locked up in your house with your pets and your kids. I have no problem with that as long as she's kept hundreds of miles away from my 14 grandkids. The kid's behavior as presented draws from within me a rage and no consideration to an attacker ... the VICTIMS, and the future victims, these have my full concern and have my full empathy. Were I to catch such an attack on one of my children I have reason to believe the attacker would be shot on the spot and having to deal with that event before considering attempting an on the spot therapy session with a whacko attacker. (jk)

Edited by - JK on 02/09/2004 10:57:55 PM
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bosslady
Advanced Member

USA
336 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  05:35:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree, JK. I have 8 grandchildren and it is scary now-a-days to even let them go to school. Afraid they might run into some whacko like this "child". She should be tried as an adult. 15 is certainly old enough to know right from wrong.
I am so tired of all this psychiatric-babble. Everyone who commits a crime or an act of violence can't help themselves, they have some mental disorder. WHAT A LOT OF BUNK! Some people are just plain mean and evil. If they don't have a mental illness, then they blame it on an unhappy childhood or their mother spanked them or some other rot. There is always a mental disease of the year. Have you noticed a few years ago, no-one had ever heard of Bi-polar. Now everyone has it.
I know lots of people who had bad parents and an unhappy childhood. They overcame it and became responsible adults.

It seems as though half the children in our school are on Ritalin. That many children can't possible be ADHD. In a lot of cases the parents just didn't want to deal with the child who had gotten out of hand. No one knows what the use of some of these long term medications are going to do to these children.

Even if a person is not a Christian, I would think they would want to raise their children to be a good, honest person, a responsible adult, who supports themselves and their family, and has compassion for others.
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MrsBuslady
Active Member

Canada
28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  07:31:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well JK, ever hear 2 wrongs don't make a right? Since when is it acceptable to be a vigalante? You'd shoot a 15 year old on the spot? Your the judge, jury and executioner? What if that 15 year old was one of your grandchildren. 14 of them, statisticly, one of them could be a bad apple. Yes I agree that too many people blame there problems on terrible childhoods, or psychosamatic brain disorders, but psychophrenia is a real condition, and unless you know someone who has the disorder, you are clueless. Some cases can't be helped, but MANY can live normal lives with proper medication and therapy. I have a close relative who is a paranoid psychophrenic and after years of insitutionalzation, drug treatment and therapy, she is now again a normal member of society. The juvenile detention centres are full of kids that society has given up on. Lock em up and throw away the key! We have created all these monsters as a society. We took God out of schools, spanking away from parents, gave them television and media overload, and spend no money on community centres and youth programs. We have created these kids with adhd. Some doctors do over prescribe ritalin, but don't knock the numerous kids that need it. I have 3 children, and I don't know how I'd feel if one of them was attacked in this way. Sure, I'd be angry and filled with hate at first, but IF the child that did this was able to be rehabilitated, I would want the system to do all that it could to help them. I agree, that there are a few kids out there who are just plain evil, like the boys in England who killed that 2 yr old years ago, kids like this do exist, but before you condemn, get all your facts straight. I know that I'll probably get some hate mail for this, but it is my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  09:44:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBuslady

Well JK, ever hear 2 wrongs don't make a right? Since when is it acceptable to be a vigalante? You'd shoot a 15 year old on the spot? Your the judge, jury and executioner? What if that 15 year old was one of your grandchildren.


Ever hear violence begets violence?

Over baked thinking! The same trap so many elitist shrinks fall into, helping to escalate their suicide rate among themselves to the top of the occupational list.

My rage would double, if that is possible, were one of my own to commit or attempt to commit such an act.

Who gave the thrill-seeking rapists, child murders and serial killers the right to do what they do? What fetish or anomaly is present in the mind of any woman that chases after serial killers, wanting to nurture them, to love them, to make them well again?

Stopping a murder by killing a murderer in the attempt, (or even after an event, then the preditor restrained by the court), is not vigilantism or taking any law into one's own hand. It is ending a specific misery on-the-spot that must not prevail to spread its misery again and again upon an endless historical list of bodies rendered lifeless after otherwise nice persons have had their way and secretly justified their acts against those innocent.

And what do you think the shrinks call normal? Ted Bundy was a real nice guy, was he not? He was certainly raised in a good Christian home with life benefits simply not available to many disadvantaged kids that do not commit rape or murder. Normal in virtually every way was he not?

It begins with a fantasy, killing over and over again in their mind, then for those Freaks!!!! it becomes reality, their reality, their normal, and their misery. The job or duty of all, including the courts, is to apply a restraint to these that guarantees the misery will not be repeated from that attacker or preditor.

Regardless, if you want to take a killer into your own home, locked up and hundreds of miles away from my 14 grandchildren and kept barred away from society, having access only to you, your other pets and your kids, then I have no objection to that. (jk)




Edited by - JK on 02/10/2004 1:08:14 PM
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bosslady
Advanced Member

USA
336 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  12:17:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
There are some children who are legitimately ADHD, but many are being medicated because their parents don't want to deal with the problems they themselves have created. One of my daughters is a Dr. who has children brought to her by parents who insist the child be put on medication, My daughter says they do not meet the criteria to be ADHD and when she won't put the child on the medication they leave in a huff and say they will find someone who will. I personally know 2 different sets of parent who WANTED their child on medication so badly they kept taking the child to different Drs until they found a quack who would medicate them.

My feeling are that most people who can kill someone (or attempt to) for no other reason than the thrill or fun of it, can not be rehabilitated. Look at the man in Florida who abducted and killed the girl. How many times had he been arrested. MANY. If they had locked him up a long time ago that little girl would still be alive.
I am not a violent person but if someone were trying to kill one of my grandchildren, I could probably kill them, and if they suceeded you can bet I would do everything in my power to see they were executed or that they never saw the light of day again.
My family is my life. I can't imagine losing one of them and God help the person who would try.
I am not a part of the "We" who created the criminals of today. I raised 3 very good, responsible adults and they are bringing up my grandchildren the same way with all the help from me they want. I have worked hard all my life, gone to church, have never taken drugs, never committed a crime, helped my neighbor.
I certainly have compassion for people who deserve it. I haven't heard anything yet that makes me think this girl deserves my compassion. My compassion goes to the victim and her family.
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MrsBuslady
Active Member

Canada
28 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  3:51:14 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I can't fathom how the topic got on to serial killers, but I was talking about a 15 yr old girl. Let an educated doctor make the diagnosis on whether or not she can be healed. Like I said, there are some people who can't be rehabilitated, like Ted Bundy. They're sick beyond repair as an adult, but when they were 15, they may have been able to be helped. Jeff Dahmer had a fascination with dead animal carcasses, that should have been a sign. Because this girl acted on sick fantasies at an early age, maybe she can be helped. The brain is a very delicate organ that doctors are only beginning to understand. All I was trying to say is that MAYBE this girl can be treated. I hope she can.
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2004 :  5:28:57 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBuslady

All I was trying to say is that MAYBE this girl can be treated. I hope she can.



You were saying a whole lot more than that. The topic included serial killers because in that girl's heart multiple murders have already been committed. When the fantasies were no longer enough, it is then that she went for reality, choosing a random victim, as do many killers of this type. She didn't get her fantasy fulfilled in reality this time, and I for one am unwilling to give her another chance.

I know this position is harsh, unyielding and draconian to the max. Seldom do I take such a final position. A few may wonder what's up with that? Count the number of the innocent that multiple repeat predators gave no other escape but death. Count the number of children abducted, raped, murdered by repeat offenders. These were people that the shrinks often said were not a risk, would not repeat. They were safe to be entered back into society - now nice people - now normal gentle souls thanks to wonderful drugs and ground breaking therapy. All Rubbish!

Those filthy offenders all started with the first one and that is where a decent society would end it. It is gravely indecent not to end the misery of the predator as well.

Perhaps the main difference in our thinking is that you see a human in that near adult that you say might be made normal someday. And I see what has the great potential by her demonstration to becoming a rabid monster near full bloom - a creature in need of a thrill. You are right, however, that a near adult with the heart of a serial killer didn't quite blossom into reality this time. The public act may have been that of a desperate showoff that wanted to be caught and get lots of attention in the process. That's of no consequence - most serial killers want to be stopped, and want to kill until they are stopped. And most, if not all, love the attention they get from their horriffic acts after they are caught.

There may be some intervention at this quickening stage that may have some effect. While she spends the remainder of her life under 100 percent adult supervision? Is that it? Is that the plan for that creature? (jk)

BAD GIRLS: WOMEN WHO KILL

Edited by - JK on 02/10/2004 9:29:28 PM
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bosslady
Advanced Member

USA
336 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  05:31:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I may sound very unforgiving and without compassion, but I have reason to be.
In 1990, my daughter married a man who had been married before. He had a beautiful little girl by his first marriage. She was blonde with big blue eyes. Her name was Ashley. My son-in-law and his ex-wife had joint custody of her so our famity had grown to love her.
One September day while Ashley was playing on the play ground of the apartment complex where she lived with her mother, a 14 year old girl took her behind the building and brutally murdered her. There was no apparent reason for the murder and none was ever given by the girl. Ashley was 4 years old when she was murdered.
The 14 yr old girl was sent to a home for juvenile's and was released 3 or 4 years later. She won't even have a record.
Ashley's family is still suffering. Ashley would have graduated high school this year.
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MrsBuslady
Active Member

Canada
28 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  08:19:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm so sorry to hear your story Bosslady. I can understand your anger. My point was, some kids can be rehabilitated. I don't know the whole story, but 3-4 years for murder seems unjust. I can understand, coming from Canada, we have the Young Offenders act, which is a joke. You can commit a horrible murder a month before you turn 18, get a slap on the wrist, your name never released, and no criminal record. I strongly believe that the system needs changed, but just locking kids up forever wont solve it either. You give a 15 year old 25 years for murder, put them in prison, they do there time, get parole at 40, and what do you have on the streets then? An istitutionalized woman with zero social skills, who has no regard for human life. Most of the perverts who molest and murder kids did time in the past, but the system lets them out. There are doctors that say they WILL reoffend, but time is served sorry, your released. The criminals have the law on there side, victims have none. Last year in Toronto, 10 yr old Holly Jones was murdered and found dismembered. In the hunt for her killer, it was discovered that there were over 200 convicted sex offenders living within 2 km of her home. 200, and NO ONE knew. The identity of these pervs is protected. Sorry to wander way off topic, but I believe that most of the problems lie within our justice systems. No one gets rehabilitation anymore. They get locked up, serve their time, and get a free pass home, whether they show remorse, are mentally ill, will reoffend, all that is irrelevant. Sorry again for your situation Bosslady, and Jk, I do agree with you half way, but I still feel that MOST teens/young adults can be rehabilitated. But again, the Justice system *****, think about it, Karla Homalka gets released in 2005.
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  09:58:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bosslady

Ashley was 4 years old when she was murdered. Ashley's family is still suffering. Ashley would have graduated high school this year.



Here is where comes the ongoing misery when an event does not end to its proper conclusion. For those who ask God for help, forgive, move forward, struggle with the anger -- COPE!!! -- still every birthday, every Christmas, an outfit in the store, a child that looks just like ... a misery is rekindled every time, giving the predator an extended and powerful thrill, the power to destroy not only the innocent, but to continue tormenting those connected to that one as well.

When the moment arrises how is it explained to another child that the murderer of an innocent continued on? The predator was given all sorts of attention, even notoriety, then set free again to live in the community, in the neighborhood, sometimes next door to another home and their children. How comforting is that?

There is no proper and just conclusion to that process. A preditor committing one act violates two mother's wombs beyond forgiveness in this mortal land and that must be acknowledged by the court.

There are some that say killing the murderer makes us just as bad as what the murderer did. That's a gross distortion or an outright lie. Ending the predator's misery also brings the event to its proper and just conclusion. An explanation can then be given that acknowledges the value of an innocent life grossly malused and the value of they whom suffered after the predator did his or her horrific deed.

A conclusion to a predator's horrific act should be proper, just and without celebration. (jk)


Edited by - JK on 02/11/2004 10:09:23 AM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  6:17:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Feb 11 2004
CNEWS - Canada - Red Deer Advocate
RED DEER, Alta. (CP) -- A 16-year-old student has been charged with second-degree murder after another teenager was stabbed to death during an after-school fight at a bus stop.

Both youths attended North Cottage high school, a small alternative public school for students in this central Alberta city who were having trouble in regular schools.

The victim was also 16 years old.

The accused is charged under the Youth Criminal Justice Act and therefore cannot be named. Under the act, the victim can only be identified with the consent of the parents. They have declined to give such consent.

The pair were waiting for a city bus Tuesday when the scuffle broke out, RCMP said.

The driver pulled up to the stop during the skirmish.

"He opened his doors and one fella got on the bus and ran to the back of the bus and sat down," said Roger Bouchard, operations superintendent for Red Deer Transit. "Somebody else came to the door and said, 'Hey, that guy just stabbed my friend.' "

The driver looked out the window, saw blood on the snow and radioed for help. He waited until emergency crews arrived while the suspect sat quietly at the back, Bouchard said.

The victim had been stabbed once in the upper chest and was pronounced dead on arrival at the hospital. The accused was arrested at the scene.

Click Here for story

Cases of school violence have occurred in other Canadian communities at various times:

In a high-profile case in 1999, a 17-year-old student in Taber, Alta., was shot dead in a school hallway by a 14-year-old boy who was the subject of persistent teasing and bullying. The two students didn't know each other.

In 2002, a female junior high school principal in Toronto was injured when she was stabbed in the back with a letter opener while disciplining a 14-year-old female student.

Six youths attack a 17-year-old in Sault Ste. Marie, Ont., with a hatchet in 1998. The victim needed 20 hours of surgery to reattach his arm, fingers and ear. (Red Deer Advocate, CP)

Click Here to find out The #1 reason some school buses are violent places

Edited by - JK on 02/11/2004 6:23:22 PM
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JK
Top Member

USA
7307 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2004 :  6:52:15 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The Associated Press

Feb 4 2004
The News Tribune
MIAMI, FL - A 14-year-old boy was apparently stabbed to death in a school bathroom Tuesday, and a schoolmate was charged with first-degree murder.

Jaime Rodrigo Gough was cut with a sharp object and bled to death, said Miami-Dade schools spokesman Mayco Villafana. Other students at Southwood Middle School found Gough's body around 8:30 a.m., officials said.

Michael Hernandez, 14, was charged after he was interviewed for several hours, police said.

Juveniles charged with first-degree murder in Florida are charged as adults.
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 01/10/2005 :  10:56:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Teen faces hearing in Gull Lake stabbingSaturday, January 10, 2005 - kalamazoo gazette

A 16-year-old accused of stabbing a younger girl on a Gull Lake school bus in February is scheduled for a preliminary examination in court on Jan. 20.

Alexandra Riel is charged with assault with intent to commit murder, which carries a penalty of up to life in prison, and carrying a concealed weapon, which carries a sentence of up to five years in prison and a $2,500 fine.

Riel, who was a freshman at Gull Lake High School when the incident took place, is being tried as an adult because of the seriousness of the Feb. 4 attack and so that she could be evaluated at the state's forensic psychiatric facility in Ypsilanti, said Kalamazoo County Assistant Prosecuting Attorney Nancy Skocelas.

"You can only access that facility for people charged as adults," Skocelas said. "There's no comparable (evaluation) facility for juveniles who are criminally acting out because of psychiatric problems."

Riel, a new student in the school district who had recently moved here from England, was riding the school bus home when she suddenly brandished a steak knife and stabbed a 12-year-old sitting in front of her, officials said.

The girl was stabbed seven times in the arm and back. The injuries were not life-threatening. The two girls did not know each other.

Police said Riel was laughing when they arrived at the scene after the attack and that she told police she had been thinking about killing or hurting someone for some time.

Immediately after the attack, Riel spent time in the Kalamazoo County Juvenile Home before she was transferred to the Hawthorne Center, a Detroit-area residential psychiatric facility for children. Prosecutor Jeff Fink said it appears from Riel's file that she is still at the facility.

Besides a psychiatric examination to determine whether she can be held responsible for her actions, Riel underwent a competency evaluation to see if she could understand the charges against her and assist in her defense, Fink said.

After months of psychiatric treatment, Riel has been determined to be competent to stand trial, Fink said. However, the prosecutor's office has not yet received a report on whether Riel was sane at the time of the attack. If that report is not filed by Jan. 20, the preliminary examination will be adjourned, he said.

Officials would not say whether Riel was being treated for psychiatric problems before the attack.

The victim's father is suing Gull Lake Community Schools, saying officials failed to protect his daughter. A trial in the federal lawsuit likely would not happen before summer. The case is assigned to U.S. District Judge Gordon J. Quist.

http://www.mlive.com/news/kzgazette/index.ssf?/base/news-12/1105377605199460.xml

http://www.rememberallyceea.com
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
Top Member

Canada
1180 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2005 :  09:55:36 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Assailant in bus stabbing pleads guilty

Tuesday, September 27, 2005 - The Kalamazoo Gazette, MI -- Alexandra Riel, now 17, pleaded guilty Friday to assault with intent to do great bodily harm less than murder, which carries a maximum term of 10 years in prison, for stabbing a younger student in the back and arm in February 2004.

Although Riel was 15 at the time of the incident, which occurred on a Gull Lake Community Schools bus, she was charged as an adult with assault with intent to commit murder, which carries a life sentence or any number of years in prison, and with carrying a concealed weapon, a five-year felony.

Under the plea agreement, it is expected that Riel will continue her mental-health treatment in a secured facility.

click for full story
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IC RE 1629
Top Member

United States
5097 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2005 :  12:54:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That is bad! I hope the person responsible is punished good!
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william
Top Member

USA
1912 Posts

Posted - 09/30/2005 :  11:34:33 PM  Show Profile  Click to see william's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I can't help but believe that someone who has been sitting around and thinking about hurting someone or killing someone is mentally deficient. There has be some underlying reason why these things happen with young children. Surely on an emotional level, our first impulse may be to lock this evil thing up and throw the key away, but at what point do we consider providing help? What if this were one of our grandchildren? Who can understand what abides within the dark recesses of the human mind anyway? If psychiatry and psychology were exact sciences, perhaps we would have at least some of the answers. Taking God out of the schools seems to be blamed for most of the problems we have with youth today, but the last time I checked, no court had ordered it out of the home. I went to school in the 50's when God was in the schools but I don't remember that our lives were impacted by that more that the knowledge of the swift punishment, corporal and otherwise, we were sure to exact from our parents if we didn't toe the line. When Brown vs. the Board of Education was being implemented in the American South, did the recitation of prayers at the start of the school day, quoting Bible verses, or invoking God's name in the pledge of allegiance foster feeling of propinquity? The answer is no. There are a miriad of reasons why things happen in our society, and you have touched on a few of them. I just think we should consider avenues other than punishment for some of these children, and perhaps Alexandra is one of them.

William
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JK
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USA
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Posted - 10/01/2005 :  1:12:27 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by william

... Surely on an emotional level, our first impulse may be to lock this evil thing up and throw the key away, but at what point do we consider providing help?

Help is provided when an horrific event is brought to it's proper, just and final conclusion.

When help is not effective before the fact, then help is brought after-the-fact, including help in consideration of the merciless killing of an innocent child, and in respect to that child's family, and to the infected community at large.

Help is also brought to a creature that saw children as prey for sick entertainment and other sick pleasures - permanent, complete help that cures the killer of that killer's misery. There are a few natural and artificial cures that require the patient to die in order to effect the cure.

A loss of innocence remains in the heart of the remaining victims, two mothers wombs violated and both complete in the knowledge that the rampaging creature will not violate another innocent child.

When accomplished without celebration, then Justice provided the creature can be a much more powerful cure in these matters than therapy and drugs. The cure can, in fact, be guaranteed, and the value of the victims subjected to these crimes acknowledged in a proper and just way.

God in schools, in respect of this country's founding ethics, is a powerful intervention against all sorts of aberrations children are at risk of evolving into. Leave kids to themselves long enough and the outcome is a group of monsters consuming each other, not a group of euphoric children holding hands and singing tra-la-la-la-la. Simply have the bus driver and monitor (why the monitor anyway?) step off a typical school bus full of kids for ten minutes or so for a clear interpretation of this thought.

What I find surprising is so often about the only way to remove ignorance, at least temporarily concerning these things, is through the threat of imminent destruction and misery, when the entire group are thrown into an impending disaster. But even then death may have it's way without a trained ethical response guiding some of the kids and adults alike. And still death will take some. The remainder too often turn vicious, unyielding and intolerant. And still others, when brought out of their greatest fear - rescued from death and misery and are once again safe - these then demand an explanation, one that often includes condemning whoever they think is god today.

Most peoples and governments are compelled to have something greater than themselves to hold them accountable, and when thus, can without question in my mind hold a nation intact and strong.

For these reasons, and hope and faith, the question is not about God in schools, but about who is going to play god over children's evolvement in our schools and eventually within our society. Is it the evolutionist occults? Is it the government? How about the Supreme Court? Is it the ACLU and other special interests? The press? Is it the bureaucrats and politicians? Is it the church? Is it the people?

Were it the people, there is no question that even the least among those that respect God's roll in this nation, myself the least of the least, hold something beyond ourselves, our government and our supreme court to be held accountable to.

"God save the United States and this Honorable Court!" - These words, are announced formally in the Court Marshal's opening proclamation when the Supreme Court sits in session. The language goes back at least as far as 1827. O. Smith, Early Indiana Trials and Sketches: Reminiscences (1858) (quoted in 1 C. Warren, The Supreme Court in United States History 469 (rev. ed. 1926)

Where no God is acknowledged, a God with ethics and perfection exceeding the greatest mortal or body of mortals on this planet, then someone or some elitist group is always going to play god. Check the history of governments and their courts making themselves god. Just look at the Supreme Court, now more powerful than ever before in America's history.

'We The People' becomes insignificant, numbered, and without recourse.

Ultra liberalism has always been a clear and present danger toward decency. They demand rights for themselves, the corrupted and unprepared - all while violating decency, justice for all, and religious freedom. That outcome has not changed, even in the greatest Nation that has ever existed on this planet.

The liar, by definition, must lie and perpetuate lies. They demand tolerance for themselves and their freedoms - just give us a chance - all while pursuing removing, literally cutting-off, the freedoms and rights of those unwilling to yield. Freedom of religious exercise/expression is the greatest target that must be removed from the people for the liar to prevail.

Which statement is the truth, concerning Americanism?

"Public prayer is unamerican and immoral." - Joe Cook, Director of the Louisiana ACLU.

"Without God, there could be no American form of Government, nor an American way of life. Recognition of the Supreme Being" is the first -- the most basic -- expression of Americanism." -Dwight David Eisenhower.

The separation of church and state clause is not in the Constitution of The United States of America, but does exist in full context in the constitutions of communist countries. These governments are officially atheist.

Where there is no God, where are the teachings and protections for our children and their right to evolve in an ethical environment that presents the perfect example for these little ones to follow?

Where then is the government's ethical/moral compass to be anchored? In the Supreme Court, where US Supreme Court Justice, Ruth Bater Ginsburg, said she wants children's right to sexual privacy lowered to age twelve?

How about NAMBLA and the ACLU? Now there's a bunch that certainly loves kids in their own way and only want the best sexual perversions for them.

These godhoods have wrought wonders upon a great Nation: Sodomy is protected - prayer is not. Pornography is protected - the Bible is not. Sexual predators are protected - children are not.

And The Legal Defense and Education Fund? I would think they must love kids, at least after they're born. Perhaps that's adequate enough to make them god over the people of this nation.

To the escalating disdain of our founding fathers insights under England's courts brutal attacks on religion and the religious, we continue these days conceding goodbye to majority rule and hello to oligarchy and domestic terrorism against this Nation's foundation and heritage. The first amendment has been turned upside down. Our counrty is next.

I'm sticking with the founding fathers of this nation and who they said God is, having given their lives to establish a Religious Nation that grew to become the greatest super-power in all of Earth's history - Under the authority of who? One Nation under who? In who did they trust?

But at what point do we consider providing help? Well, I would supose that from a practical perspective, whether or not there is a God might be irrelevant. God still belongs in our public schools and can help. (jk)

"The foundation of our society and our government rest so much on the teachings of the Bible that it would be difficult to support them if faith in these teachings would cease to be practically universal in our Country." -- 30th President Calvin Coolidge, 1923



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Edited by - JK on 10/01/2005 6:54:57 PM
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william
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USA
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Posted - 10/02/2005 :  10:55:49 AM  Show Profile  Click to see william's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Lets get one thing straight. The USA is not a religious nation. Nor was it founded to be such. Iran, Saudi Arabia and some other nations in the world are religious nations. We are a nation of many religions and the first amendment to our constutition says that no laws will be enacted to respect any religion. If a school, a state entity, has a law that says all children would begin the day by reciting a Christian prayer is that constitutional? If we are a religious nation what religion are we to be? And is it really the role of a public school to teach religion? Religion should be taught in the home, churches, seminaries, convents and bible colleges, I believe. I hope there never becomes a time in this country when religion pre-empts the constitution. Speaking of those founding fathers, most of them had personal knowledge of the consequences of state supported religion.

William
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JK
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USA
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Posted - 10/02/2005 :  1:55:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by william

Lets get one thing straight. The USA is not a religious nation. Nor was it founded to be such.

Who taught you this stuff?

I consider you intelligent, logical thinking and useful in your other posts on other issues, but this issue does not seem to fit your usual expertise, (nor mine for that matter), nor need it in this country in order to express an opinion. That can be considered a part of freedom of religion, not free from religion or a demand to subscribe to one religion.

Our public education system itself was established by churches, ministers - the religious - including virtually, if not every, major university in this Nation's earlier history.

The Constitutional signers themselves were virtually all professing some form of a Christian religion in their debates, included professed Judeo/Christian religious ethics and themes (a belief in the biblical God of Israel) in the Constitution, on all major government buildings, mass printed Bibles, began school classes and government sessions with prayer, called for national fasting and prayer, and incorporated Judeo/Christian religious ethics into the laws of the United States of America. Many were ministers and active in their teachings and in their establishment of the greatest 'human rights documents' on the planet.

Read the founding debates. Which God do you think they were referring to? Allah (Arabic/Muslim version)? Some plant, tree or animal? The planets, their satellites and the sun? One Nation Under gods?

Where was Jefferson at the time the constitution was in debate? What did he say about those calling him an expert concerning the Constitution?

The founders made this country a place where many diverse religions could flourish without government interference -- ...the free exercise thereof clause, which does actually exist in our Constitution.

The few events where government had the authority to intervene (such as human sacrifices, polygamy and such), where mutually created and supported by the churches.

Read Noah Webster's Blue-Back Speller, a public schooling, private schooling and home schooling book of the time and for 100 years after it's first publication.

Read your history, this country's founders are worth getting to know. Their authority to rebel and commit their criminal activities against England's government, courts and laws came from who?

Have a nice day. (jk)

'Virginia Bill for Religious Liberty' originally written by Thomas Jefferson. The preamble to that Bill stated among other things: "That no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burdened, in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief."

"In brief this battle over public and nonpublic schools did not originate with the Founding Fathers, or the First Amendment. For one thing, there weren't any public school systems at that time. The Founding Fathers were themselves the products of religious schools, homeschooling, or were largely self-taught." - School Choice Articles, Copyright 2000, David W. Kirkpatrick

"Citizens, by birth or choice, of a common country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections. The name of American, which belongs to you in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of patriotism more than any appellation derived from local discriminations. With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles. You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the independence and liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts of common dangers, sufferings, and successes." - from George Washington, September 17, 1796, Farewell Address.

Noah Webster's Blue-Back Speller:
The great American educator Noah Webster first published A Grammatical Institute of the English Language, otherwise known as the Blue Back Speller, in 1783. His goal was to provide a uniquely American, Christ-centered approach to training children. Little did he know that this remarkable gem would become the staple for parents and educators for more than a century and would help to build the most literate nation in the history of the West. Many of the Founding Fathers used this book to home school their children, including Benjamin Franklin who taught his granddaughter to read, spell, and pronounce words using "Old Blue Back." - Available from Amazon.com



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Edited by - JK on 10/02/2005 10:25:51 PM
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Sandra (Ennis) Nunn
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Canada
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Posted - 10/02/2005 :  7:43:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Read the founding debates. Which God do you think they were referring to? Buddha? Ala? some plant, tree or animal? The planets, their satellites and the sun? One Nation Under gods?
J.K.

J.K.,
I think that you may be "mixing your metaphors," so to speak, in religious terminology . . . and potentially insulting many pious followers of several major religions, including Christianity.

Buddha, "The Enlightened One" was a great spiritual teacher on whose teachings the practice of Buddhism is based. Buddha was not God or a god.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha)

For Arabic speaking people, the Arabic word for God, is Allah. Arabic-speaking Muslims, Christians and Jews (all monotheistic religions) use the word "Allah" when referring to the One Divine Creator. It is the term used in Arabic translations of the Bible.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allah)

Sandy
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JK
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USA
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Posted - 10/02/2005 :  9:06:11 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sandra (Ennis) Nunn

quote:
Read the founding debates. Which God do you think they were referring to? Buddha? Ala? some plant, tree or animal? The planets, their satellites and the sun? One Nation Under gods?
J.K.

J.K.,
I think that you may be "mixing your metaphors," so to speak, in religious terminology . . . and potentially insulting many pious followers of several major religions, including Christianity.



Thanks for the info. I made the correction. Should have caught the Allah misspell. Seen it enough times. There's no intent to offend, only to present the predominant religious foundations in this Nation's beginnings. Know too little about specific world religions to make the better presentations in that regard.

The world religions are not an area I intend to study. Religion itself is not an area that holds my interest or one I spend much time on. It is in my thoughts because of the intensity of its presence in the charters, other founding documents, letters, debates and speeches that dominated the time. There are perhaps others far more able to clarify America's founders relationship with God and how that relationship and the Bible shaped The United States of America and the founding documents.

Regardless, it remains the founders of the United States of America were professing a God specific to the biblical God of Israel, and incorporated laws and the people's rights around the theme of the Bible and professed so in public debates amd speeches.

Ones' history is worth remembering, has certainly been the case with many traveling here from other nations, remembering their heritage. For those of us born here, America is our heritage as well, to remember and respect and regardless of what faith is professed. (jk)

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Edited by - JK on 10/02/2005 11:12:12 PM
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ICfan
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USA
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Posted - 10/03/2005 :  08:31:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit ICfan's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Is it there a code the driver has to radio to base if there is a knive found? That is horrible, and the person who did it should be put in Jail

Tyler Roys Weatherman and International Fan,

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william
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USA
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Posted - 10/06/2005 :  11:53:14 PM  Show Profile  Click to see william's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
In the first place, I never questioned the founding fathers belief in a supreme being, or God or the support they gained from the Bible. I stand by what I said. This nation was not founded to be a religious nation. It is a nation wherein you can practice any religion, even if you are Muslim or Buddhist. However, I don't believe the word God appears in the U.S constitution. JK, the words one nation under God was not even in the pledge of allegiance when as a child I first started to recite it. And, it was Jefferson himself who first used the phrase separation of church and state, wasn't it? I do not profess to have more expertise than the next person when it comes to religion. I have my thoughts on it, however, and I do have faith which is the cornerstone of any religion, don't you think?

William
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JK
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Posted - 10/07/2005 :  01:39:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by william

... And, it was Jefferson himself who first used the phrase separation of church and state, wasn't it?

Well, actually, no. The phrase you mention is [edited from: an eastern European phase, specifically a communist phrase I believe. - To: not original to Jefferson.] Jefferson was in France at the time the constitution was being debated. He adamantly denied being an expert in the constitution and admonished those that attempted to present him as such. "God" is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence four times, The Constitution itself includes the phrase, "In the year of our Lord ..." All 50 continental states mention "God" in their Constitutions. The phrase, "under God" was added to the Pledge to separate American beliefs from Communist beliefs. On January 14, 1969, Skelton, in a short commentary on his television series, The Red Skelton Hour, spoke seriously for a moment about the Pledge of Allegiance. He mentioned "One Nation," to mean, "so blessed by God." He concluded with an interesting observation: "Since I was a small boy, two states have been added to our country, and two words have been added to the Pledge of Allegiance: Under God. Wouldn't it be a pity if someone said that [the Pledge of allegiance] is a prayer, and that would be eliminated from schools, too?" "Skelton's Pledge of Allegiance" has won 42 awards and was read into the Congressional Record on two occasions. Skelton's Commentary on the U.S. Pledge of Allegiance is available from: The International Shrine Clown Association. Click on the flag (about halfway down the page) to hear Red Skelton recite his Pledge of Allegiance. One way to remember Red Skelton is to simply say, "Good nite, Good bye and God Bless."

Again, read your history. Those rebels against England's government and courts, and why they did what they did, are worth getting to know, in my opinion.

Good nite, Good bye and God Bless. (jk)

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Edited by - JK on 10/13/2005 9:30:52 PM
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william
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Posted - 10/08/2005 :  11:40:28 AM  Show Profile  Click to see william's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
JK, I had not intended to get into a religious discussion when I wrote my post on 10/02/05, and I notice that the forum members have steered clear of joining in. But when you stand upon your soap box and exhort me to know my history, while yours is rife with inaccuracies, I am bound to respond. Thomas Jefferson used the phrase "separation of church and state" in 1802 in a letter he wrote to a baptist leader who had fears that the United States was appointing a certain denomination as the national church. In his letter, Jefferson wrote " the First Amendment has erected a wall of separation between Church and State". Roger Williams (the founder of Rhode Island), said in 1662 that the chruch and state need not be. Jonh Adams said that this nation was not a Christian nation nor was it created to be. At any rate, most of our founding fathers were Deists, which allies them closer to the Muslims than Christians. Dating a document In the year of our Lord, was common pratice in those days, but does not make this a nation founded on a particular religion, Christianity or otherwise. Note that no religious test to hold a public office is allowed by the Constitution, nor is the phrase "so help me God" required in any oath. The placing of your hand on the Bible during a swearing in ceremony is not an absolute requirement. By way of contrast, go to any religious country and you will find that in order to hold any government job, you have to be a member of the religion that country was founded upon. The Communist Manifesto was published 56 years after Jefferson's letter, andt the Communist Party came into being in 1918, the year after the Bolsheviks under Vladimir Lenin overthrew Czar Nicolas of Russia. Lenin changed the name from Bolsheviks to Communist Party in order to differentiate his brand of socialism from other socialist goverments in Europe at that time. I remember well watching the Red Skelton show the night that Red did the pledge of allegiance part. I like any other American could not help but be moved by the way Red presented it. For twenty five years, I was a proud member of the United States Navy and have always been a religious person. I have been to more countries than I can count, and one thing that always stands out is the particular genius of the glorius men who founded this country. These men, all religious and believers in the existence of a higher power, had the foresight to create a nation where all religions were to be a personal, rather than a state matter. And yet, you and some others, continue to attempt to revise their vision and foresight by insisting that this nation was founded to be a religious nation and in particular a Christian nation. I believe this inclination is for no other purpose than to further political agenda. Good nite, Good bye and may God bless.

William
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JK
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USA
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Posted - 10/08/2005 :  2:17:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit JK's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by william

JK, I had not intended to get into a religious discussion when I wrote my post on 10/02/05, and I notice that the forum members have steered clear of joining in. But when you stand upon your soap box and exhort me to know my history, while yours is rife with inaccuracies, I am bound to respond.

... At any rate, most of our founding fathers were Deists, which allies them closer to the Muslims than Christians.

Hello, had some time available to return to this thread. (Don't know what happened to my last post - must have overwritten it.)

Concerning more about your post, had no idea the Founding Fathers often referred to or that there was such a comfort zone that more aligned the Founders with the Muslim faith. Although it is certainly true the Founder's were often cautious toward attacking any religion, that would not seem to imply that they also thought themselves or the Judea/Christian's "Jesus," when following the logic trail, was more in alignment with the Muslim faith or deist beliefs. The government at the time printed Bibles, not the Koran.

Jefferson's bible crashed into oblivion while Washington's book of prayers sustained. The ACLU has claimed that the Founders were confused. I'm not convinced that was the case either.

Nor does silence on this side-topic or on any topic today and here indicate agreement or disagreement, just as George Washington said in his days, "Silence does not mean agreement."

My understanding is a deist believes that God is not involved in mankind's affairs and that He is not a personal God to whom one can rely upon. The God of a deist may have begun creation, but He is not available now to help us in our time of need.

Granted, not all is what it seems. Regardless, it would certainly seen my understanding of a deist does not fit the Founders beliefs, although no doubt some would fit, and others when angry at a situation might lash out in letters and other writings.

Claims the country was only 10% Christian are still made, but doubt that few could have had such a great influence in our Nation's early religious/government themes and public displays. Today a few enforcing their will on the people is possible - not as likely back then.

From reading opinions on the time and some of the original letters it seems clear that, "People were more divided and realigned over religion than they were over their nationality." (Ancient Manuscripts - EVS HOLDING COMPANY, LLC., 2001)

Religion is an unusually touchy subject that nonetheless does have a place for civil discussion and opinion here, and even in public schools, but for my part relates to the founder's beliefs in what they said and what they did, not necessarily what I might believe, or what you might believe. And there are contradictions in writings and actions - definitely a struggle that still left government buildings laminated with Christian religious themes, as well as Christian teachings in public schoolbooks, and on and on.

Were there no such national religious themes included in national government behavior then there most likely would be no biblical laminates and references in state constitutions, on old government buildings - including the supreme court building, government paid paintings, emblems, sculptures and statues, city seals, crosses on hills and the like.

The ACLU and other special interests would not be going about attempting to remove or deface these historic revealings, because they simply would not exist. What the ACLU does in their efforts, by the way, is a big money maker for them funded by taxpayer dollars.

Jefferson's clause is a metaphor and politics, not law. He is not the inventor of the thought. Some 2000 years ago can be found references to this issue. I recall something Christ was supposed to have said along the thought: "... render unto Caesar what is Caesar's ..."indicating a separation between Church and State, but nothing compared to what is happening or the manner in which it is happening in our government today - or - the government, depending on ones' perception these days.

Nor did the founder's create the manner of separation between Church and State forced upon the American People these days. Government by the people is supposed to serve the people and promote their affections, not order the people around based on the whims, inclinations and revisions from the few.

Even the concept of public schools under the control of government was considered a dangerous adventure. They may have been right about that as well.

Be it a single Church, the Press, the State or the Court, no one single group in power seems able to prevent eventually corrupting themselves, then the people. It would seem then only the people by their vote, and primarily the commoner, have that ability through a national embracing of an ethical/moral standard to anchor themselves and having their authority under ... who? The founder's placed the responsibility for this Nation's continued existence and freedoms upon The People, in the hope that would sustain this Nation.

In a rather strange (strange because it involved the FBI) study of Jefferson's letter to the Danbury Baptists, which contains the phrase "a wall of separation between church and state," James Hutson, chief of the Manuscript Division at the Library of Congress, concluded that Jefferson's letter was written as a partisan counterpunch, aimed by Jefferson below the belt at enemies who were tormenting him more than a decade after the First Amendment was composed. And because Jefferson consulted two New England politicians about his messages indicated that "he (Jefferson) regarded his reply to the Danbury Baptists as a political letter, not as a dispassionate theoretical pronouncement on the relations between government and religion." --FBI Helps Restore Jefferson's Obliterated Draft, By James Hutson.

Here's a few more quotes from James Hutson's article:

In 1985, Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist lamented that "unfortunately the Establishment Clause has been expressly freighted with Jefferson's misleading metaphor for nearly 40 years." LIBRARY OF CONGRESS INFORMATION BULLETIN, June 1998

"In the 1790s Jefferson developed a more favorable view of Christianity that led him to endorse the position of his fellow Founders that religion was necessary for the welfare of a republican government, that it was, as Washington proclaimed in his Farewell Address, 'indispensable for the happiness and prosperity of the people.' LIBRARY OF CONGRESS INFORMATION BULLETIN, June 1998


Click Here for full article

While not getting too radical over this side-issue I would suppose it might help if we looked at what Jefferson included about religion, and about the courts as well. And, again, keep in mind, he seemed to contradict himself in other letters, at least according to some.

But I must warn in advance, this is probably not history that can be quoted in public schools under todays' standards. American History, at this level, and although promoted in public schools until the last fifty years or so, would seem way too religious for public education today. American History should be studied at home and in church anyway, at least according to todays ACLU and other special interest and individual promoted standards.

These quotes are not as pretty for some, they're not fancied up to revised interpretations, and doesn't seem deist either.

Jefferson's notes on the State of Virginia, 1781 -- "God who gave us life gave us liberty. And can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are a gift from God? That they are not to be violated but with His wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just, and that His justice cannot sleep forever."

Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Virginia Q.XVII, 1782 -- "The error seems not sufficiently eradicated that the operations of the mind as well as the acts of the body are subject to the coercion of the laws. But our rulers can have authority over such natural rights only as we have submitted to them. The rights of conscience we never submitted, we could not submit. We are answerable for them to our God. The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."

Thomas Jefferson to William Branch Giles, 1794 -- "The attempt which has been made to restrain the liberty of our citizens meeting together, interchanging sentiments on what subjects they please and stating their sentiments in the public papers, has come upon us a full century earlier than I expected."

From Thomas Jefferson - Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382 -- "One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others."

Thomas Jefferson to Elbridge Gerry, 1799 -- "Did we ever expect to see the day, when, breathing nothing but sentiments of love to our country and its freedom and happiness, our correspondence must be as secret as if we were hatching its destruction!"

From Thomas Jefferson's First Inaugural Address, March 4, 1801 -- And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions.... error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it.... I deem the essential principles of our government.... Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; ... freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeas corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected."

Letter from Jefferson to Benjamin Rush April 21, 1803 -- "I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Leesburg Citizens, 1809 -- "While the principles of our Constitution give just latitude to inquiry, every citizen faithful to it will deem embodied expressions of discontent and open outrages of law and patriotism as dishonorable as they are injurious." (Note: Although this quote shows up often, can't locate the specific original issue. Seems to be concerning differences in opinion and calling for public discussion and petition, rather than screaming crowds and rioting.)

Thomas Jefferson to Jean Baptiste Say, 1815 --"The manners of every nation are the standard of orthodoxy within itself. But these standards being arbitrary, reasonable people in all allow free toleration for the manners as for the religion of others."

Jan 9, 1816 Letter to Charles Thomson -- "It [the Bible] is a document in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus."

Thomas Jefferson -- "The studious perusal of the Sacred Volume will make better citizens, better fathers, and better husbands."

Jefferson on the Judiciary branch
Sept 6, 1819 -- "The Constitution is a mere thing of wax in the hands of the judiciary, which they may twist and shape into any form they please."

Sept 28, 1820 letter to William Jarvis -- "You seem to consider the judges as the ultimate arbiters of all constitutional questions; a very dangerous doctrine indeed, and one which would place us under the despotism of an oligarcy...The Constitution has erected no such single tribunal...knowing that to whatever hands confided, with corruptions of time and party, its members would become despots."

Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Johnson, June 12, 1823, The Complete Jefferson, p. 322 -- "On every question of construction (of the Constitution) let us carry ourselves back to the time when the Constitution was adopted, recollect the spirit manifested in the debates, and instead of trying what meaning may be squeezed out of the text, or invented against it, conform to the probable on in which it was passed."

Thomas Jefferson (may be interpretive - see website) -- "Never trust a government that doesn't trust its own citizens with guns."

More on Jefferson's Politics & Government (Etext Center, University of Virginia Library)

Now then, unless there is something more you would like to add to this side-issue or argue about, please do so. By no measure am I interested in interfering with your right to ...the free exercise thereof, a clause which does actually exist in our Constitution. (jk)

Was George Washington a Christian?
Click Here for full article

Links that may help support your view of this issue:
FIND LAW: The Separation of Church and State: Have We Gone Too Far? By Brian J. Hershorin, Submitted 2003: Click Here for full article

Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church (Note the switch from Church & State to State & Church.) Click Here for full article

Jefferson's Jesus Nation
Click Here for full article

America's Most Famous Deists
Click Here for full article




There is no school bus driver shortage!
Properly train, effective support and pay that retains.


Edited by - JK on 10/16/2005 10:09:55 AM
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william
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USA
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Posted - 10/18/2005 :  9:55:43 PM  Show Profile  Click to see william's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the information.

William
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CPSBUS67
Senior Member

USA
113 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2005 :  9:53:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
this is why we (first Student Columbia Mo) do not transport 6-12 with k-5 kids

GIVE ME A THOMAS AND NO ONE GETS HURT!!!!!!!
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