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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
 Posted - 11/24/2003 : 06:02:28 AM
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| I think the intention will be to let the district set the standard as opposed to the factory setting the switch arrangement. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 06:06:10 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter
quote:
each individual driver can arrange them however they want to.
That's the problem. What about when your bus is down and you have to drive a spare? What about standby drivers? Every time you drive a bus that is not "your" bus, you have to search for switches. A standardized layout significantly reduces the time spent attempting to familiarize yourself with the controls.
quote:
Each switch takes a few seconds to register after it has been moved, but
then it works regardless of the slot you put it in. So if you prefer switch "A" to be above switch "B", you simply put
switch "A" into the slot above switch "B" and wait a few seconds while it registers.
So what you're saying is that the electrical system has been complicated to increase the time required for repairs when it does fail? Please correct me if I'm way off, but that's what I'm reading from this.
No Peter, that's not what I'm saying. Did you even read my post  ? I'll wait for your response because I seriously think that you didn't even read my post  . |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 08:13:56 AM
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quote:
I saw a demonstration on smart switches about a month ago, and it was very easy to do.
I have a question regarding the smart switches. Since the smart switches are easy to move from one location to another (on the switch panel), does that mean they can easily be stolen from the bus?
May sound like a ridiculous question, but it sounds like it would be possible, unless I am missing something here. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 09:15:53 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by B. Busguy33
quote:
I saw a demonstration on smart switches about a month ago, and it was very easy to do.
I have a question regarding the smart switches. Since the smart switches are easy to move from one location to another (on the switch panel), does that mean they can easily be stolen from the bus?
May sound like a ridiculous question, but it sounds like it would be possible, unless I am missing something here.
Not ridiculous at all  . Actually it's a good question which I do not have a definite answer for. But if I had to guess, I would say yes. You need a flat head screwdriver, or something with a similar edge to pry the switch out. So I guess if a theif had something to pry them out with and your bus didn't have a lock or wasn't in a safe place, then yes.
Is there a theft problem at your school? |
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sbfreader
Senior Member
153 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 10:01:34 AM
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Just a guess here , but I would assume they are no easier than current switches. Current switches have spades on them that connect to spade connectors on appropriate individual wires. You simply pop the switch out of the panel and pull the wires off.
It sounds like these "smart switches" plug into a socket-type thing underneath the switch cover. So essentially it is the same kind of connection. Intead of pulling off individual wires you unplug the switch from the socket. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 1:07:55 PM
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sbfreader - I can't be certain, but what you say could be true. All I know is:
1)smart switches can be taken from any slot and placed in any slot, in any combination. So you could have your switches arranged like this (switches labeled 1-9)
123456789
And I can get in your bus, remove all the switches, rearrange them in any combination I want, i.e.
938271645
Give them a second to register and *tada* customizable control panel.
2)it takes about 5 seconds for the switch to be recognized once it has been moved to a new slot.
3)if the switch is faulty, it will blink to show that it is not working.
4)there is no disassembling of the panel required to move these switches. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 1:19:48 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by spec
"First Law of Engineering: If it works, don't fix it."
I am no engineer but if that was the first law we wouldn't have turbine engines, the space shuttle, airbags, nuclear power, high performance tires, efficient air conditioners, efficient heaters, atm machines, McDonalds, gortek, color television, cds, dvds, laser eye surgery, laptop computers, LED lights, electric cars, washing machines, dryers and the list goes on and on and on.....just food for thought.
spec
...And the list goes on... microwaves (one of my personal favorites )...
Come on, somebody else add another one... keep the list going... it's fun  |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 2:41:21 PM
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Mr. Salesman,
I would bet that you're thinking about how happy all drivers will be now that they can set the switches wherever they desire. Am I right? Well, right along side convenience comes trouble (right here in River City). For example, one of my coworkers is having trouble with the power locks on his pickup truck. The driver's door will not stay unlocked due to a short somewhere. He can't find the problem himself, so until he decides to bite the bullet and take it in for repair, he's inconvenienced. He thought it was great unlocking both doors with the push of a button, but now he's cursing this system.
The second law of thermodynamics (entropy) applies to electrical systems, much to the consternation of your average individual. Given this fact, my mind jumped immediately to the future problems of smart switches while reading your words that extolled their virtues. Do you see how I made that step?
I have a tendency to frustrate people that like excess. Give me a bus that is simple, safe and spacious and I'll be pretty happy. |
Spicer is nicer. |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 2:53:02 PM
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Did you hear that, Busbiz? I'd be happy. If you'll recall, I have not complained about where manufacturers placed switches on the panel, just about bad panel design. It doesn't really matter to me how they are arranged, as long as there's a factory standard. What would really make me happy is if one of the teams of engineers that designed buses would bring in some drivers to help them create a functional design. Blue Bird had a good one, but discarded it in 1996.
I've added a signature to clarify the purpose of the points that I try to make. Like Elvis Costello, my aim is true. |
Spicer is nicer. |
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B. Busguy33
Top Member
USA
3444 Posts |
Posted - 11/24/2003 : 2:58:01 PM
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quote:
Not ridiculous at all . Actually it's a good question which I do not have a definite answer for. But if I had to guess, I would say yes. You need a flat head screwdriver, or something with a similar edge to pry the switch out. So I guess if a theif had something to pry them out with and your bus didn't have a lock or wasn't in a safe place, then yes.
Is there a theft problem at your school?
sesalesman,
Thanks for your reply, I do appreciate it. I just wanted to reply back to you with an answer to your question to me: "Is there a theft problem at your school?"
Well, our buses are owned and operated by one of the nation's largest school bus contractors. All of our buses are parked in a bus yard without any sort of fencing. The yard is located on the corners of three streets (basically, the bus yard is surrounded by three streets -- almost like a trianglur pattern). It is very easy to drive in and out of the bus yard.
Anyway, we have had quite a few vandalism incidents. None of our buses are equipped with vandal locks. I have to admit, probably your typical thief would not think to steal switches. But, perhaps some of our drivers would take a switch from a co-workers bus and put it in their own.
Also, when drivers park at home or somewhere around town, the bus is unattended and unlocked (since we don't have vandal locks) and switches could be stolen at that time if anyone breaks into the bus.
I have to admit, the smart switches are one idea I do like overall. I do not like the possibility of having a large fleet of these buses that may have switches placed in all kinds of different locations (within the switch panel, of course). I like consistency, simplicity, and things to be uniform in a large fleet of buses. Other than that, I am pretty sure I would love the ability to place switches where I, as a driver, want them. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 08:07:47 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Peter
Smart switches. The website doesn't say much about them, but from what I read, it sounds as though you can move them to different positions on the panel. That's terrible! No one will know where the switches are when they get on a new bus.
Peter, okay buddy which way do you want it  ?
1)If the switch panel is standardized throughout each bus, then you would obviously know where the switches are, correct? Problem solved. Everybody is happy because everybody knows where the switches are.
OR
2)If the switch panels are not standardized throughout each bus, then you would be able to customize the switches, correct? In which case you, the individual driver, would be able to place the switches (in a minimal amount of time) in the places where you, the individual driver, would be able to find them, correct? Problem solved. Everybody is happy because everybody knows where the switches are.
Either way, standardized or customized, all I'm saying is that you will always know where your switches are.
Look, if you don't like the smart switches, that's fine. It's your opinion and I respect that. I was simply responding to what you said about never being able to find the switches . |
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busbiz
New Member
7 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 09:14:20 AM
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| peter you have a good idea of asking driver's input. there is a flaw with it though. if you ask 10 drivers you get 10 different views and each one thinks theres is the best. the reason i commented to begin with was that you complained about bird changing there layout. maybe you are right maybe we should stay with what we have had in the past. but just saying if it aint broke dont fix it is not realistic. everything eventually breaks. (even manually operated automobile windows will break the ones in my truck are right now) and the bird layout you complained about originally i am sure some people accually liked the new layout just as some didnt. |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 11/25/2003 : 2:31:58 PM
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1) Back in the day, Thomas, Blue Bird and Carpenter all had a standard switch panel layout with the "sockets" labeled, whether the switch was present or not. That was nice because I learned the different layouts and could find my way around pretty easily.
It's not feasible for me to move all the switches in the morning each time I get on a new bus, which is every day that I drive. Half of the time, I'm sent out late to cover a route because the driver pulled a no phone/no show so I have no time for fooling around. I don't turn the heaters on right away because all that does is blow around cold air. So I'm cruising down the highway, "driving efficiently" and shivering. It's not easy to find the switches in the dark at 55* mph. That's where it is really nice to know that the heater switch on a Freightshaker, for example, will always be in the same spot. A driver's customized layout would make things difficult for me.
My complaint with all bus manufacturers is that they have been moving in a direction of interior design from useful to inconvenient. I use the example of the pre-'96 Blue Bird because there's a lot of space for the driver and it's useful for storage and quick retrieval. The most recent Thomas conventional and the '96-'01 Blue Bird were fair, as items could be placed on the small ledges to the driver's left. The new Bird, IC and C2 designs don't give us any space or places to keep things so they're readily available.
Some people like the new designs but that does not change the fact that they are not helpful to the driver.
The point I was making with the window story is that simple is better. If the regulator or a window crank breaks in my car, I can go to the junkyard and get another one on a Saturday morning and have it fixed by noon, rather than taking it in and paying somebody to diagnose and fix an electrical problem, which may require more trips to the repair shop. Trips to the junkyard are cheaper.
I'm not being verbose for the sake of reading my own words. It just seems like I'm the only one that sees the problems with the current design trends. |
Spicer is nicer. |
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sesalesman
Senior Member
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 05:37:14 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by ThomasBuilt B24U
I think the intention will be to let the district set the standard as opposed to the factory setting the switch arrangement.
Peter -
I think you make an excellent point . Sure, in a perfect world every driver would have ample time to go through the bus and get familiar with it. But that isn't always how it is  . So I should have added a third option to my last post which would have looked something like the one ThomasBuilt B24U posted above. I would still argue that smart switches are superior to old switches simply because of this flexibility. Anytime you can allow the school or the driver to set the layuot, I see that as an advantage. Now, having said that...
If a bus has 10 switches(just for example) and it takes approx. 5 seconds to remove a switch and approx. 5 seconds for the switch to be read, you're only looking at a total of 1 minute 40 seconds. So lets round that up to an even 2 minutes. No lets make it 3 minutes to allow time to find each switch + rearrangement time. You're telling me that you can't afford an extra 3 minutes before you begin your route? If that is the case I would say the problem is not with the switches but with something else.Maybe each driver could do a "switch check" as part of their pre-trip inspection.
One final thought, smart switches give drivers the option to standardize a panel but I would guess that the average school purchasing a bus with smart switches will set the standard layout themselves. |
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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 08:50:27 AM
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Peter,
It sounds as if the bus you'd like to have would come from the junkyard as well. Old technology is fine by me too. I drive a 66 Mustang. Look under the hood and you KNOW what you're looking at! But you can hear that all of the big three bus manufacturers are kind of hinting about the multiplex wiring thing. It's coming. The need for a computer literate person in the shop is going to be a requirement for all new bus models. Look at the engines used today. Just try and not have a palm pilot to diagnose problems with these. Seen any "Check Engine" lights lately? |
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C24U
Advanced Member
United States
220 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 08:54:23 AM
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Also,
Peter as a driver are you concerned about fixing your bus? Do your mechanics have the ability to diagnose modern computer based electronics. If so, what is your concern? If not...why? |
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Peter
Top Member
USA
1057 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 1:54:19 PM
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I take an interest in all aspects of student transportation, including maintainance and repair.
My question is do we really need all of this computer-based electronics stuff? Is it more durable or easier to work with? Does it make the bus operate more efficiently? If not, why is it being used?
Are there mechanics who would prefer to work on the computer-based electronics components of the newer buses? Mechanics, do you find that it is easier to diagnose problems and faster to fix them with these systems? |
Spicer is nicer. |
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skoolhack
Senior Member
76 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2003 : 7:08:57 PM
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Peter,
You pose a good question. I'll attempt to provide some answers. School buses are a great deal more sophisticated today than they were even 10 years ago. Electronic engines, electronic transmissions, multiplex wiring, etc. are here to stay. Much of it is required to meet such things as emissions regulations and the performance demands of the marketplace.
I think, for the most part, the products are more durable. Engines, for example, are much more efficient today than at any time in history. There is something to be said for the simplicity of things in the past but as the Billy Joel song goes, "... the good 'ol days weren't always good." Think about how dirty and inefficient diesel engines were 20 years ago. Reliable, durable automatic transmissions deepened the potential pool of driver's while simplifying the task of operating the vehicle. Better warning lamp systems and other safety devices are in place and have made loading zones safer. Defrosting and heating systems on buses are better today. Heck, you even see A/C on school buses these days. The flammability of materials used in construction of buses has been dramatically reduced. The list really goes on and on. I think that today's product gets better fuel mileage, lasts longer, and works harder than school buses ever have. In fact, I am of the school that believes that the product has been artificially held back, so to speak, with regards to many advancements that you see in the automotive and trucking industries. It has been easy for us to sit back as an industry and say, "Our safety record is so good, if it isn't broken don't fix it." I believe that for many years problems were treated with band-aids rather than really addressing the root causes of problems with school buses. I believe that what has been seen in just the last 3 - 5 years is just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to modernizing the yellow school bus.
However, on the whole these things are not easier to work on. Training and continued education for garage personnel are more important now than they have ever been. The days of the "shade tree mechanic" are long gone. Sometimes its difficult to get the funding needed to keep a well-trained staff in your garage but the payoff is well worth it. These vehicles need to be treated like the sophisticated pieces of equipment that they are. That level of sophistication is only going to grow.
You simply can't turn back the clock for a lot of reasons and if you were to really think about it you wouldn't want to. |
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New Thomas Safe-T-Liner C2 Pictures
