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Shopdog
Active Member

11 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  08:41:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shopdog's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know this is the proverbial dead horse but I am curious to see what people think. I would like to know if you favor propane over gasoline and why? I say gasoline over propane. My reasoning is gasoline can be found anywhere. Anyone is capable of fueling gasoline. Propane requires a service to come fill your vehicle or a specialized fueling station which is one more pain in the neck. Also a propane rig starts with a gasoline engine removes a great fuel system and installs a totally different fuel system which is in my opinion one more system to fail and not mention a lot more tricky and needing special level of care and tooling to repair. Lets not forget to mention here in South Dakota a lack of service outlets for repair of these systems. Hope I am not causing any hate or discontent here just looking outside my own opinion thinking maybe someone will open my eyes as I seem to hear a lot people want to go propane. Do they know something I do not?

Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  09:46:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm very split on this.

The gasoline seems like a more viable option since I can get it anywhere. The propane has "more to go wrong" and needs extra equipment to do some service jobs, but I feel that it's a safer option than the gasoline due to tank construction.

I am my no means very well knowledgeable about a propane bus though.
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Bluenozer
Top Member

Canada
640 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  11:01:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
gas
to retrofit any shop to be able to service and repair CNG or propane units is expensive plus the training for techs and operators
I would rather stay with diesels

OEM trained in wiring and all engine platforms for over 20 years
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  11:16:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, you know I am going to respond with a positive for propane. lol
Anyway, the only thing that's different on propane (that needs specialized service) is the fuel pump, OPD and sock filter inside the tank. Everything else on the system is easy and the same or similar to gasoline. The other advantages are cleaner burning, longer lasting engine, cheaper fuel (and per mile cost. My fuel cost is 25 cents per mile before any taxes), no spills to clean up, no fuel to go bad while sitting in the summer. A question to ask would be; why do you need to fuel away from your yard/ school? A Blue Bird bus with the large tank option will take you over 400 miles. I live in a very rural area and we go all four directions on trips. The farthest away location, there's no need to refuel. We do have one of the older models with the small tank. All I do is call ahead and a company will meet us and fuel us up.

Back to the "clean burning". I'm not a "tree hugger" but you can really tell a difference at the school when the buses are loading not to mention if the EPA keeps up their pressure to reduce emissions, you'll be way ahead of the game.

Lastly, gasoline is the most dangerous fuel that we use. When you spill it, it hangs around in a puddle until it slowly vaporizes. Not to mention that the chance for a spill is better than propane.

I just don't like gasoline. Do I use it in the personal vehicle? yes. But, if I had a fleet of vehicles of my own I would try to make them propane.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  11:17:29 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bluenozer

gas
to retrofit any shop to be able to service and repair CNG or propane units is expensive plus the training for techs and operators
I would rather stay with diesels



There are no modifications recommended for propane beyond what you would have for gasoline. CNG is another cat all together.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2018 :  11:20:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
https://www.propane.com/uploadedFiles/Propane/On_Road_Fleets/Safety/autogas%20repair%20and%20maintenance1.pdf

Bryan
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iceracer
Active Member

32 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2019 :  05:22:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit iceracer's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have propane buses (11 total now). I also manage another fleet that now has 6. IMO this is the best for US, but I do see a benefit to gas.
Our district has our own fueling station, as does the other fleet. Anytime we do long trips, we call ahead and locate a fuel supplier to fill off their truck. no big deal!

propane fueling is EASY, and much safer than gasoline.

Gas is more readily available tho.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/02/2019 :  10:29:59 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
iceracer, of course I agree wholeheartedly! I would say "gas is more convenient". All propane takes is a little planning if you are going to run over 450 total miles or so on a trip (that's with the large tank).

Bryan
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valleybusman
Top Member

USA
798 Posts

Posted - 01/03/2019 :  3:43:10 PM  Show Profile  Send valleybusman an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Gas I was around when contractors would take over a district fleets and convert everything over to propane . Buses ran cleaner and oil always looked like new . Then I spoke to a driver who drove one of these converts . I was told they could drive north 100 miles and had to fill up before heading back . The bus had a 75 gallon tank . One other argument is the propane has limited BTU"S that's why diesel is the best chosen fuel since it has limitless BTU's
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2019 :  04:13:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valleybusman

that's why diesel is the best chosen fuel since it has limitless BTU's



"limitless BTU's" ?????

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
853 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2019 :  2:32:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yea, I need a tank of that stuff...
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2019 :  10:53:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mechan1c

Yea, I need a tank of that stuff...



LOL!!

We're in a whole different ballgame with LPI! valleybusman, you need to read up on the modern propane engine before passing judgement. The new Roush/ Ford engine will make a 20k pound bus spin the wheels in gravel. It also doesn't freeze up and it's NOT a "conversion".

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2019 :  10:54:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
valleybusman, I know you're a good guy (because I've seen your posts) but man it's guys like you that keep new, good, technology from catching on.

Bryan
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BLUEBIRDPARTS
Active Member

United States
16 Posts

Posted - 01/08/2019 :  07:29:33 AM  Show Profile  Visit BLUEBIRDPARTS's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Shopdog we need to talk if we haven't already, there are currently 2 propane buses in South Dakota, are you west river? both of the schools that have propane plan on buying more. the current systems vs the systems from the 1980s are like comparing apples and bananas. It takes way less training to work on the propane system vs the diesel. the best comment from customers that have propane is "they run, I don't have check engine lights, no fuel gelling or plugged fuel filters and they heat!" It is a real change from conventional thinking but well worth investigating with an open mind.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/11/2019 :  06:27:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Propane all the way. we started running propane buses in 2013 and we have charted a big savings over the diesel buses. The fueling station is a very simple set up some propane suppliers will put them in at no cost to your district and do a short training to allow drivers to fuel them. My drivers have no problem fueling and it is almost as fast as fueling the diesel bus. The Bluebirds use the 6.8 V10 block that Roush designed from the heads up to run liquid injection for propane. Thomas had the power integrations motor but has changed to the PSI which is the same motor International runs in their propane buses. We run Bluebird and Thomas propane buses along with some diesel buses

Edited by - wwinters on 01/11/2019 06:34:20 AM
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Shopdog
Active Member

11 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2019 :  10:28:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shopdog's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I am starting to get on board with propane. My only concern is where is there in south Dakota to have them worked on when there is an issue? Bluebirdparts can you enlighten me on this please?
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2019 :  1:00:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It will depend on the bus brand you choose, Bluebird uses SOME Ford dealers, Thomas can go to Whayne Supply, I am not sure on the International's I have spoke with the International dealer closest to me and they are looking at getting technicians trained on them. I think you will like their them, especially on those cold day start up.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2019 :  1:51:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by wwinters

It will depend on the bus brand you choose, Bluebird uses SOME Ford dealers, Thomas can go to Whayne Supply, I am not sure on the International's I have spoke with the International dealer closest to me and they are looking at getting technicians trained on them. I think you will like their them, especially on those cold day start up.



I just found out my local International truck dealer will not allow propane in the building. Not even to work on the brakes. They are a branch of Rush. Not sure if all Rush Truck Centers are the same or not. They are shorting themselves if you ask me.

Bryan
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Shopdog
Active Member

11 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2019 :  06:06:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit Shopdog's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That right there does not sound very promising.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/17/2019 :  06:41:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Certainly not a Rush corporate policy, or else the 3 shops I've been to locally are ignoring the rule.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2019 :  2:00:37 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
update on the Thomas propane motor....

“We are pleased with the performance of the 488LPI engine since we brought it to market in 2018,” said Brad Garner, Agility Fuel Solutions president of powertrain systems. “We expect demand for this engine to continue to grow as more fleets benefit from the significant purchase incentives available for propane-powered vehicles and enjoy the lower total cost of ownership over the life of the vehicle.”

The 488LPI engine uses Agility Fuel Solutions patented liquid propane injection (LPI) technology and is assembled in the company's Salisbury, North Carolina, plant on a base General Motors V-8 engine long block. The engine also features proprietary Agility Fuel Solutions dress parts and propane injection

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valleybusman
Top Member

USA
798 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2019 :  10:08:00 AM  Show Profile  Send valleybusman an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I would like to keep an open mind regarding propane . The only info I have is old I know . So I would be interested in new figures . As far as diesel I should have said more BTU's and left out limitless.Sorry
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exmod110
Senior Member

150 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  05:45:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit exmod110's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Don't let them idle in the cold.. LMAO
https://www.reddit.com/r/Justrolledintotheshop/comments/ahmtmc/bus_industry_is_fun_sometimes/
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  05:50:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by valleybusman

I would like to keep an open mind regarding propane . The only info I have is old I know . So I would be interested in new figures . As far as diesel I should have said more BTU's and left out limitless.Sorry



In my opinion, Roush has the market on these engines. I have almost no problems with the fuel system and few problems with the Ford components.
As for the propane fuel itself, the key is to have a good supplier that is interested in opening up the market. You must contract the fuel to keep the highs at bay. Also, you have to be interested in long term savings. If you are leasing and turning over your fleet every 5 years, propane may not be for you (you would have to study it from that angle, which I have not). The fleet I take care of now doesn't get turned over as well as it did when I started 25 years ago. At a point about 18 years ago, the oldest bus on the place was 11 years old. Now we have one that is 18 and at least one every year newer than that. I think it's my fault. lol I just fix them and don't complain much. But I digress. I believe these engines have the ability to run for a very long time/ miles. Time will tell.

Bryan
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BLUEBIRDPARTS
Active Member

United States
16 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  06:48:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit BLUEBIRDPARTS's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shopdog

I am starting to get on board with propane. My only concern is where is there in south Dakota to have them worked on when there is an issue? Bluebirdparts can you enlighten me on this please?



Depending on your location we may have to setup a place to work on the bus. Right now I know that you can get them worked on in Sioux Falls. it is also possible to get you some training. They really are easy to work on.
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BLUEBIRDPARTS
Active Member

United States
16 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  06:51:01 AM  Show Profile  Visit BLUEBIRDPARTS's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Shopdog

That right there does not sound very promising.



We usally find that some education about the systems is all that is needed to over come the objection to working on the bus. lets face it the media only talks about when there is a event with a propane bus. usally it is someone that does not know what they are doing. It happend here in Minnesota several years ago.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  08:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well said a good propane supplier is a key component we are lucky to have UPG here in Kentucky, they put in our pumping station at no cost to school and they have successfully won the bid each year so far on supplying our fuel.
I also like the Roush V10 but not so much the ford transmission it is coupled with as we have seen some problems with them. We are also seeing some brake balance problems with the Bluebird
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black
Active Member

USA
49 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  12:07:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit black's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What kind of problems have you encountered with the Ford transmissions?
We have been running them since 2014 and they have been trouble free so far.
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/21/2019 :  1:07:01 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
we noticed oil coming out at bell housing and when we got to looking it was trans fluid out of pump seal, we have had 5 repaired and 3 more leaking
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  03:50:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
School system I work at already has 6 propane buses, 3 gas and 3 more propane on order for next year.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  05:51:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fastback, which buses are you running? I have Bluebirds and Thomas's, I am hearing good reviews from another district on the internationals
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  07:18:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have all three brands on propane, all things considered, I believe the IC has them all beat.
They all have their little quirks;
The ICs have a quite long wait to start lamp, doesn't seem to matter if its warm or cold. They won't run or start if fuel door is open. Have great diesel like power. Big fuel tanks only available on long wheelbases.
The Thomas doesn't care if fuel door is open to start or run. Be easy on the gas pedal as they are very snappy and quick to downshift. Big fuel tanks available down to a 238" wheelbase 59 passenger.
Bluebirds have their quirky "start in progress" system and will run with fuel door open but not start. Even our flat land drivers complain about the lack of power and all the downshifting. If their previous bus was a 240/250 horse Cummins you may get an earful. Big tank also means long wheelbase.

With all that said, my side of the school system that has the propane pumping station is getting two Thomas propanes this go around and the other side is getting one Bluebird propane and three gas.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 01/25/2019 07:46:37 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  07:53:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback



Bluebirds have their quirky "start in progress" system and will run with fuel door open but not start. Even our flat land drivers complain about the lack of power and all the downshifting. If their previous bus was a 240/250 horse Cummins you may get an earful. Big tank also means long wheelbase.





There's an option for shift pattern on the Ford transmission. You can have an update on your existing buses. Helps on the downshift and fuel mileage. Don't know what to say on the power. All my drivers think they are driving a sports car. They'll take off like a rocket. 362 HP on my Roush propanes.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  08:06:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bluebird currently claims 320 HP

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  08:37:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

Bluebird currently claims 320 HP



I'll be, wonder what happened to 362?

Bryan
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wwinters
Senior Member

USA
114 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2019 :  09:39:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bluebird cut the rpm back which made a HP rating change.
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