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mquiring
Senior Member

79 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  10:51:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit mquiring's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just saw this on the news. http://www.1011now.com/content/news/Two-killed-n-Iowa-bus-fire-463670593.html

Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  11:00:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is going to be an interesting one to follow. Early reports said there were 20 on board, 18 having escaped. Seems that is not that case.
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  1:08:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Report I saw said the driver backed out of a driveway into a ditch and only one student was on board. Sounds like maybe the driver had a medical issue? That's pure speculation on my part.

Very sad to see these kinds of tragedies so close to Christmas.
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Admin
Administrator

USA
1662 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  1:15:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
SBF got some more details and ran this story: http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/726685/driver-1-student-killed-in-iowa-school-bus-fire
quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

Report I saw said the driver backed out of a driveway into a ditch and only one student was on board. Sounds like maybe the driver had a medical issue? That's pure speculation on my part.

Very sad to see these kinds of tragedies so close to Christmas.

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Kodie
Top Member

United States
2028 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2017 :  3:58:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is why every type C or D school bus should have a side exit door. Not to speculate and assume that they would have been able to get out with one, but if the front and rear doors were blocked, an exit door on the driver side would have certainly allowed them an exit. I can't imagine a 74 year old man easily climbing out of a roof hatch to escape, but an exit door, very easily.
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  02:31:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just so odd to believe they couldn't escape in time ..wonder if could have been some type of flash fire or something , horrible no one would imagine rolling into a ditch would cause this .
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  04:12:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The NTSB has picked this up and will be doing an investigation. Hopefully they can piece together what went wrong.

One story said he was in his final days before medical leave for an upcoming back surgery. Could have played a roll, I suppose.

There's a clear photo of the side of the bus while it's on a trailer for transport. Heaviest burn and V-pattern up from the left rear wheels, which usually indicates the point of origin.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  04:56:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The newest article says the bus is 2005 International, diesel engine.

US Army retired CMBT
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  05:17:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Co workers and I were talking about this accident this morning. So sad.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  06:25:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Could a tail pipe blockage cause this? It's pre-'07 so maybe not. Prayers for all involved.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  06:31:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just read SBF's article. My goodness, this is heart wrenching! This happened right in the student's front yard. I would be interested to know the theories as to why a 16 year old couldn't get out. I'm wondering if body flex had something to do with the service door not opening.

My heartfelt prayers are going out to the families.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  07:43:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still remember as an elementary kid in KY, them teaching us that you can easily kick the windows out. That was not true for buses built after, what, 1974 I think? Still I remember that. At least one Carrollton survivor remembered that too, as evidenced in his interview. Unfortunately he could the hard way that it doesn't work.

We do training in Ohio annually and that is supposed to include disengaging the power-operated door. Does Iowa train kids on evac procedures?

Let's just speculate (NO basis whatsoever, please understand) that the driver was knocked out for whatever reason, leaving only the 16 year old to make the next move...

I would have to think that a 16 year old would know and understand that there are pushouts in that new of a bus (assuming this isn't a low-functioning special needs child, which seeing a photo of her reading to younger children seems to rule out). Don't know if this is a manual or power door bus just yet, but hopefully could figure that out if it's operative.

I don't expect her to have known that the windshields come out pretty easily on that type of bus. Fire extinguisher makes a good batting ram if needed. The drop to the ground and the subsequent broken leg is a better option than the fire behind you. Do we educate the kids on that (windshield exit) knowing that C2's, T3's and I THINK EFX/HDX buses are adhesive glass so it won't work?

I keep coming back to a white sheet at the left front corner, driver's window area. You know why they typically do that. Which one was that, if either of them?

So many questions to answer in the coming weeks so we can figure out what went wrong and how to avoid it happening again.

These families and community need prayers right now, the rest gets sorted out in due time.
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  07:45:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Very saddened, for all involved.
Just curious, here we have to have 2 emergency exit windows on each side of the bus. Are they not required in Iowa or other parts of the USA?
I guess the child may have been knocked down from the impact?
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  08:51:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by torque

Very saddened, for all involved.
Just curious, here we have to have 2 emergency exit windows on each side of the bus. Are they not required in Iowa or other parts of the USA?
I guess the child may have been knocked down from the impact?



Any bus that size built for Iowa since the late 90s would need to have 2 roof hatches and two emergency exit windows per side

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  09:13:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I hope anyone reading this from the "outside" realizes that the reason we talk technical stuff this soon after an event like this, is that we are wanting to prevent it from happening again. The more we learn, the more we can teach drivers/ students and the more we can push to change problems that lead to something like this.

That being said, I hope we can be posted as to the outcome of the investigation. I still haven't seen a full report on Chattanooga. I want to see if the students were ejected from the bus via the student windows. If so, we need to push for laminated and adhesive side windows over seat belts.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  09:46:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Here's an article with a good picture of the bus. I think it's an IC. Can't be entirely sure but has to be that or a Blue Bird for sure because a C2 is so much different. I think the different color over the rear wheels is from the tires burning so long before the fire department got there. I'm sure this location was pretty far out from the town that had a fire department. Plus, I'm sure, it is an all volunteer department that takes some minutes to assemble to respond with equipment. I must say, it is hard to think about. I just get a lump in my throat when I think about the district being much like my own. I have 17 buses, in a rural setting and I have drivers that age and on city council. I have a 15 year old child who rides one of my buses and I live in an area pretty far from the fire department. My heart just aches for them.

https://stnonline.com/news/latest-news/item/9130-local-federal-investigators-look-into-fatal-iowa-school-bus-fire?utm_source=eNews+12.13.17&utm_campaign=STN+Enews+&utm_medium=email

Bryan
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  1:33:05 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I also found it interesting, the bus was backing out of the lane way.
I am not saying it would have, or could have made a different outcome, but around here our drivers must back into the lane way, then drive out.
They are not allowed to back out on to a road without an adult spotter.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  1:44:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by torque

I also found it interesting, the bus was backing out of the lane way.
I am not saying it would have, or could have made a different outcome, but around here our drivers must back into the lane way, then drive out.
They are not allowed to back out on to a road without an adult spotter.



Hmm, interesting. We don't have that rule but I am interested in the reason behind it. In a rural setting, such as this, the danger of a crash due to traffic is non-existent. I do believe the outcome here would have been different if this driver was spinning his wheels trying to get himself out of the ditch.

Bryan
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ICBUS07-30
Senior Member

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2017 :  3:02:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Here's an article with a good picture of the bus. I think it's an IC. Can't be entirely sure but has to be that or a Blue Bird for sure because a C2 is so much different. I think the different color over the rear wheels is from the tires burning so long before the fire department got there. I'm sure this location was pretty far out from the town that had a fire department. Plus, I'm sure, it is an all volunteer department that takes some minutes to assemble to respond with equipment. I must say, it is hard to think about. I just get a lump in my throat when I think about the district being much like my own. I have 17 buses, in a rural setting and I have drivers that age and on city council. I have a 15 year old child who rides one of my buses and I live in an area pretty far from the fire department. My heart just aches for them.

https://stnonline.com/news/latest-news/item/9130-local-federal-investigators-look-into-fatal-iowa-school-bus-fire?utm_source=eNews+12.13.17&utm_campaign=STN+Enews+&utm_medium=email



Defiantly a IC but not a 2005.I was thinking the same thing about the tires burning for a long period of time but also the fact that he was stuck he could have been riding the brake maybe. It will be very interesting once the investigation is finalized.

Formally ICBUS0730

Edited by - ICBUS07-30 on 12/13/2017 3:02:32 PM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  04:39:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not going to even try to do the quotes thing over multiple postings, so I'll just go in order sort of. "We" for the purposes of my post will refer to the majority of the school bus industry, inclusive of staff, management, manufacturers.

I too hope that folks reading this realize our reasons for looking at the features of the bus and whatnot. Studying crashes/incidents and the design features of the involved buses is how we have gotten to where we are today, the safest form of ground transit in the world. We have to look at what worked, what didn't work and make changes from there. I for one have altered my bus specs due to findings from crashes/incidents. Example: I'll never have another bus with a slide-bolt vandal lock again, but that's a story for another day.

We are very proficient at cautiously avoiding changes, probably for all the wrong reasons, probably to a fault to be blunt. See the side-door discussion.

NTSB reports can take a year or two to be finalized. They do post preliminary reports as they are available, Chattanooga is not even in a posted prelim state yet. The reports can be the most boring book you'll ever read, but the info is so valuable. The accident dockets are searchable by several fields to find the incident you want to see and contain some very interesting reading and photos. Check them out sometime.

It is a Navistar bus, it may be titled as a 2005, but it is of the series prior to the current series of their conventional bus. Reference the "Ward" style ribbed bumper and 3800 style front bumper. I can't find a picture effective enough to determine if it is hydraulic or air brakes but it has an electric stop arm so I'm leaning toward hydraulic, bus as you all know that is not a certain way to tell. It is an automatic with an Allison 2000. 2 hatches. Odd body style (at least for me) in that it has +9" in both the front and rear bow sections. 11 body sections (excluding driver area) would point to a 72 capacity, but with those two +9's I wonder if it's a 77? That would depend on Iowa's seat spacing rules. 77 would be 4 pushouts, no?

I can't identify any remnants of reflective tape or decals to indicate where the pushouts were and how many. As noted by Fastback, minimum is 2 if it's a 72 pass. I was disappointed when Ohio reduced the requirement to 2 for a 72 passenger bus a few years back. If I were still purchasing 72's I would be spec'ing 4 minuimum. I know they are a pain in the rear sometimes and they likely will never be used, but when you need them, you have them.

I see what could possibly be the remains of a camera bracket in the back. I'm hoping it had a camera and the DVR was in an a compartment or low enough that maybe, just maybe the files are able to be retrieved. I won't bet on it though. As horrible as it would be to be the people who examined a video from something like this, the info would be priceless.

Who else thinks we need a side door as Kodie does? The bus after which I modeled my screen name was a January 1995 build, it had a side door as did all Ohio buses in this very short window of time. Shortly after, they stopped coming that way. Not sure if it was a brief misunderstanding of state or federal rules or if the state just backed off of a new rule.

My order for 2 buses was sent already, it may be an option to look at next year though.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  04:47:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Phew...I think I've been around buses for too many years.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  05:44:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24


Who else thinks we need a side door as Kodie does? The bus after which I modeled my screen name was a January 1995 build, it had a side door as did all Ohio buses in this very short window of time. Shortly after, they stopped coming that way. Not sure if it was a brief misunderstanding of state or federal rules or if the state just backed off of a new rule.

My order for 2 buses was sent already, it may be an option to look at next year though.



We bought three BB/ Chevy buses in '95. They had the side door. I think the federal law states square inches of exit space. I would imagine it's a cheaper build to put in the windows than to build that door opening and door.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  06:23:22 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I had 1 hatch and 2 pushouts per side, plus the side and rear doors. I'm not complaining, even if I did have a seatback right in the middle of the door (remember we had the NY highbacks even then).
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  06:46:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In Iowa we had that mid nineties time frame where we got a few buses with LH side emergency doors, originally they came with flip up seat cushion at that location. Later it was decided we could not have the flip up seat cushion so they got removed and we had to relabel the rated passenger capacity of the bus

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  06:54:04 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If memory serves, I believe all Iowa buses 35-pass and up must have air brakes.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  07:04:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/685327/iowa-updates-school-bus-spec-rules

I see fireblock seat covers were just recently required. Hard to say if it would have made a difference, they still burn but they do buy you time to get out.

But I find this in the inspection manual: "Any fire-blocking seat fabric is repaired using unapproved
procedures (buses manufactured starting November,
1989)"

Is that to say it was an option prior to the 2014 change?
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  07:31:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

If memory serves, I believe all Iowa buses 35-pass and up must have air brakes.



In Iowa you must have air brakes if any of the below apply;
1. GVWR greater than 26,500 lbs.
2. Wheel base equal to or greater than 274"
3. Rated capacity greater than 66 passengers

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  07:55:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

If memory serves, I believe all Iowa buses 35-pass and up must have air brakes.



In Iowa you must have air brakes if any of the below apply;
1. GVWR greater than 26,500 lbs.
2. Wheel base equal to or greater than 274"
3. Rated capacity greater than 66 passengers



What's the logic behind this? Is it proven that air stop distance is shorter than hydraulic?

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  08:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

If memory serves, I believe all Iowa buses 35-pass and up must have air brakes.



In Iowa you must have air brakes if any of the below apply;
1. GVWR greater than 26,500 lbs.
2. Wheel base equal to or greater than 274"
3. Rated capacity greater than 66 passengers



What's the logic behind this? Is it proven that air stop distance is shorter than hydraulic?



Not sure, requirement probably hasn't changed since days of hydraulic drum brakes and vacuum boosters.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  10:03:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by torque

I also found it interesting, the bus was backing out of the lane way.
I am not saying it would have, or could have made a different outcome, but around here our drivers must back into the lane way, then drive out.
They are not allowed to back out on to a road without an adult spotter.



Hmm, interesting. We don't have that rule but I am interested in the reason behind it. In a rural setting, such as this, the danger of a crash due to traffic is non-existent. I do believe the outcome here would have been different if this driver was spinning his wheels trying to get himself out of the ditch.



I wouldn't say non existent. We have some pretty rural areas around here and that kind of thinking got one of our own drivers into an accident and another operator not far from here, same thing.
http://www.brockvillenewswatch.com/2016/10/24/school-bus-rolls-near-addison/ Drivers of both vehicle, in both accidents didn't thing anyone else would be around.

I have always backed off the highway when possible. I was taught that in a defensive driving course not long after turning 16. It is easier and safer in many ways I find. If there is traffic, you simple drive away when clear, backing onto the road you would need more time as you would back out, then stop, then drive away. You are judging traffic looking forward, not over your shoulder are some main reasons. even with no traffic, it is easier to verify that looking forward.

Yes it will be interesting to find out what started the fire and why it spread so fast and no one could get out. How did the fire get inside the bus? DO they use salt there, and the metal was corroded bad, enough in some places as to not protect from fire outside if for example you are correct and the fire stated from spinning the wheels?

I just hate to imagine, if the bus was full or it had more students on board :(
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  11:20:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Or student(s) in wheelchair(s) ....

One thing I noticed is how apparently the fire was drawn up the body/roof bows like a chimney...

I would note that at the hour that this tragedy occurred it is pretty dark out in rural Iowa.....

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 12/14/2017 11:21:35 AM
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  11:50:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do the inside lights come on when you open an emergency exit in Iowa like ours do? I've heard of states where the backup lights do too.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  1:12:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

If memory serves, I believe all Iowa buses 35-pass and up must have air brakes.



In Iowa you must have air brakes if any of the below apply;
1. GVWR greater than 26,500 lbs.
2. Wheel base equal to or greater than 274"
3. Rated capacity greater than 66 passengers



What's the logic behind this? Is it proven that air stop distance is shorter than hydraulic?



Not sure, requirement probably hasn't changed since days of hydraulic drum brakes and vacuum boosters.



Update, there was a change, the below no longer applies:

1. GVWR greater than 26,500 lbs.

Only the wheelbase and capacity restrictions remain.


Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 12/14/2017 1:14:00 PM
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torque
Advanced Member

Canada
358 Posts

Posted - 12/14/2017 :  1:31:02 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Our 2018 and 2019 buses, just the back up lights come on when rear emergency door is opened. Is is required for any province in Canada that follows D250.
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CISDbusman
Advanced Member

305 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2018 :  04:47:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Any findings or news on what caused the fire yet? I Googled with no luck. I did find where it said the female victim and her sister had just reunited shortly before her death.

Very sad!!!!
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/23/2018 :  05:31:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
NTSB hadn't been posting anything due to the government shutdown. Both occupants died from "inhalation and thermal injuries". That's been all so far.
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