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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  11:14:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, so I just got an email from the Environmental Law and Policy Center. The reason I get their emails is that I attended a webinar they had on alternative fuels. Anyway, they are promoting the use of electric buses. I'm wondering about your opinion of alternative fuels. Which of the three are better? Electric and CNG have a very high initial cost. It's my understanding that batteries don't last the life of the bus either, so there's continuing cost there. I see CNG as very dangerous because you are dealing with pressures in the 3,000 psi range vs. propane in the 50 to 150 range (storage pressure). You also have to consider the fueling station cost of CNG. Also, the fueling time on CNG and electric is longer than propane. So, they are basically wanting me to urge my state lawmakers to use the VW money to buy electric buses. (I'm not entirely sure that our state hasn't already made the decision to do just that, but I digress) Wouldn't the VW money be better spent on propane? Wouldn't we get more bang for the buck when it comes to the reduction of pollutants?

krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  11:21:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why ask us? I thought you were our resident expert on propane and propane accessories? ;)

-Ken-
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  12:06:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by krmvcs

Why ask us? I thought you were our resident expert on propane and propane accessories? ;)



Ha! Good one! I hope that I realize that I don't know everything. Plus, I was looking to see if anyone can see something I can't. I must say, after operating them for over 5 years, I still can't figure out why people aren't going to them like a moth to a candle. If the intent of those administering the VW money is to reduce pollutants, I believe the overall reduction would be more if you replaced more older diesels with propane. To put it another way, we can replace more units with the same money by purchasing propane vs. electric (or even CNG for that matter).

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  12:33:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
RE a moth to a candle...

I believe that a lot of the resistance is "WELL we had propane buses in the 80s and..." I hear the same thing about the air disk brakes.

I had a 1983 F250 that used to shear off a pin in the distributor drive every so often. Does that mean I shouldn't buy a 2018 Ford truck? LOL
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  1:19:50 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Electric vehicles are all about politics. You're not being any more "green" when you plug into the electrical grid powered by fossil fuels than you are when you operate an internal combustion engine. And you're certainly not being any more "green" when you go to dispose of all of those batteries someday with all kinds of hazardous chemicals.

CNG is not a bad alternative if you can afford the startup. Propane, in my opinion, delivers acceptable performance, at a reasonable price, with less damage to the environment than diesel or gasoline. I'm getting ready to place my order for 4 more propane Visions next week, for a total of 12 in my fleet next year. At this point, I won't consider anything else.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/17/2017 :  2:20:04 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

Electric vehicles are all about politics. You're not being any more "green" when you plug into the electrical grid powered by fossil fuels than you are when you operate an internal combustion engine. And you're certainly not being any more "green" when you go to dispose of all of those batteries someday with all kinds of hazardous chemicals.

CNG is not a bad alternative if you can afford the startup. Propane, in my opinion, delivers acceptable performance, at a reasonable price, with less damage to the environment than diesel or gasoline. I'm getting ready to place my order for 4 more propane Visions next week, for a total of 12 in my fleet next year. At this point, I won't consider anything else.



I wish someone would read what we are saying and point this out to the people pushing these electric vehicles. Set the "same pollution" agument asside.The price is such (at this time) that the end result, with the same hard earned tax money, is not as much pollution removed from the air we breathe.

If I may ask, how long have you guys been running propane?

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2017 :  10:06:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wish our local fire department were more willing to work with us on a propane fueling station.

Anyone have propane in a residential, urban location?
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2017 :  04:39:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We got our first 3 propane Visions in 2015. Our compound had a propane tank and pump before, so the infrastructure was already there for a vendor to put them back.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2017 :  05:28:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

I wish our local fire department were more willing to work with us on a propane fueling station.

Anyone have propane in a residential, urban location?



Yep, right in the middle of town. The world is filled with misconceptions.

Bryan
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TerryH
New Member

Canada
4 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2017 :  06:34:10 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Since we are all on the topic of propane. I started working on bus's in the early 90's. We were all propane then, worked well, a little (no a lot) under powered. We are now all diesel, not by my recommendations. Long story short, can i get yays or nays to the bluebird vision on propane. Trying to convince the elders.

Thank you
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2017 :  06:49:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by TerryH

Since we are all on the topic of propane. I started working on bus's in the early 90's. We were all propane then, worked well, a little (no a lot) under powered. We are now all diesel, not by my recommendations. Long story short, can i get yays or nays to the bluebird vision on propane. Trying to convince the elders.

Thank you



I won't bore everyone with my regular speech, all you need to do is look up my posts on other propane threads to see my opinion. One thing I would like to point out here is that the new propane engines are much different than the old ones from the 70s and 80s. Much more power! I have had great service from my Visions with the Ford V10. However, I have been told that some have had catastrophic failure on a few. I could talk for hours on these. No time today and I'm sure most don't want to hear me anyway.

Bryan
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Brook Peacock
Senior Member

116 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2017 :  04:11:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit Brook Peacock's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Electric may be the most talked about these days but if you value “green fuel” then propane might be the better choice.
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2017 :  07:39:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We've had very few problems with propane Visions. On relatively flat land, they perform well power-wise. They're cheaper to operate, easier to work on, warm up faster and run cleaner and quieter than a diesel. I have no plans to buy anything else anytime soon. You will spend more to purchase a propane bus, but you will make up the difference in a couple of years with the savings. I also adjusted specs to minimize the cost difference (delete block heater, extra insulation, extra heaters, etc.)
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2018 :  1:14:11 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How would you feel about a Vision, with the Ford & Roush...but it's CNG? Stay tuned boys and girls
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underthebus
Active Member

11 Posts

Posted - 01/12/2018 :  1:53:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit underthebus's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Very few problems with the V10 Visions. Both gas and propane versions. The extreme cold causes so many emission problems with the diesels, (all makes). It is great to have a cleaner option that performs better.
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 01/15/2018 :  11:56:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have all 3 we have propane visions gas visions and diesel visions doubt there will be a diesel in the lot within 5 years as the cost to maintain the gas and propane units is far far less our propane units get around 3 mpg our gas about 7 and the diesel about 7.5 mpg add in the extra cost of diesel as well as def for the diesels and gas looks like a good choice to me just my 2 cents

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Titan1
New Member

7 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2018 :  04:04:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit Titan1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Actually the electricity to needed to charge an electric bus produces less pollution that at other type of fuel operating the same distances.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/16/2018 :  4:19:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Titan1

Actually the electricity to needed to charge an electric bus produces less pollution that at other type of fuel operating the same distances.



Please direct me to a study on that if you wouldn't mind. Thanks

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2018 :  07:07:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey guys, you are all wasting your time. See? https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/bus-advisor/facts-about-fuels/?utm_source=schooltransportationnews&utm_medium=eblast&utm_content=hmh_stn_eblast_jan2018_videolink_factsaboutfuel&utm_campaign=tbb_2018_diesel_hmh

Sorry, couldn't resist posting this.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2018 :  07:24:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Hey guys, you are all wasting your time. See? https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/bus-advisor/facts-about-fuels/?utm_source=schooltransportationnews&utm_medium=eblast&utm_content=hmh_stn_eblast_jan2018_videolink_factsaboutfuel&utm_campaign=tbb_2018_diesel_hmh

Sorry, couldn't resist posting this.



HA HA! I have seen this

Bryan
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2018 :  08:12:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Hey guys, you are all wasting your time. See? https://thomasbuiltbuses.com/bus-advisor/facts-about-fuels/?utm_source=schooltransportationnews&utm_medium=eblast&utm_content=hmh_stn_eblast_jan2018_videolink_factsaboutfuel&utm_campaign=tbb_2018_diesel_hmh

Sorry, couldn't resist posting this.



LMAO!!! They can't say it if it ain't true right? Where did you hear that? The internet. LOL what a joke!

Parts cost more, fuel cost more, can't keep a diesel out of the shop.

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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 01/18/2018 :  11:52:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"If numbers are lies, statistics are damn lies!" Not sure who said it first, but it sure applies here in my opinion.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  05:30:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Sherm

"If numbers are lies, statistics are damn lies!" Not sure who said it first, but it sure applies here in my opinion.



Not sure either. However, what happens most times in these sales "white papers" is not all "numbers" and "statistics" are included. So, you get a partial picture of the facts. There's no substitute for real world experience in your location. Further, you know as well as I do that even complete numbers can often tell one story and application another (computer models are helping that). One example comes to mind. That Mercedes engine was a real runner in Europe. When they got it over here, it fell flat on its face. The numbers said it would run (heck, real world on the other side of the globe said it would run), this side of the globe it didn't pan out so good.

Bryan
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JRob
Advanced Member

207 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  11:46:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What Thomas is saying is mostly true. Diesel is the most efficient fuel available. There is a reason Diesel fuel became the predominant fuel source in transport. It was cheaper, the engines were less complex and more robust, fuel economy was great. Those advantages have eroded but not gone away so this means alternative fuels may be better from an out-of-pocket expense perspective. Another example I would give is the best way to lower emissionsis to not produce them at all. So I think that is what they are getting at when they say diesel produces "lowest carbon footprint over the operational life of the bus". When you factor in carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide and fuel economy, you make up for the higher NOx and Particulates. Beyond that, people aren't really buying buses to be "green" they are saving out-of-pocket expense as noted above. The "green" aspect is a cherry on top of the sundae.

As for electric being "greener" much of it would depend on how the electricity is produced. Electricity from a hydro source or from a plant that burns NG vs. coal is pretty "green".
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  12:19:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JRob

What Thomas is saying is mostly true. Diesel is the most efficient fuel available. There is a reason Diesel fuel became the predominant fuel source in transport. It was cheaper, the engines were less complex and more robust, fuel economy was great. Those advantages have eroded but not gone away so this means alternative fuels may be better from an out-of-pocket expense perspective. Another example I would give is the best way to lower emissionsis to not produce them at all. So I think that is what they are getting at when they say diesel produces "lowest carbon footprint over the operational life of the bus". When you factor in carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide and fuel economy, you make up for the higher NOx and Particulates. Beyond that, people aren't really buying buses to be "green" they are saving out-of-pocket expense as noted above. The "green" aspect is a cherry on top of the sundae.

As for electric being "greener" much of it would depend on how the electricity is produced. Electricity from a hydro source or from a plant that burns NG vs. coal is pretty "green".



I agree with you. Another thing we have to keep in mind with Thomas is that they are loosing market share to Blue Bird with the propane units. I have no reason to believe that they can't get caught up. However, this "white paper" tells me that maybe they don't believe that. One would think that they should be fighting the fight in the propane arena if they thought they had a contender in a propane engine. It's a bit puzzling to me.

Maybe they aren't looking through the money saving glasses we're looking through. As I always say, time will tell the tale!

Bryan
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JRob
Advanced Member

207 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2018 :  3:54:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
One would think that they should be fighting the fight in the propane arena if they thought they had a contender in a propane engine.


There just isn't a partner for them out there like Blue Bird has with Ford or even what IC has with PSI. They won't develop one in-house through their Daimler affiliation as there is not enough meat on the bone for Daimler to get interested. They simply have to play the hand they are dealt. Besides based on what I know the lack of a Type C alt fuel platform hurts but isn't crippling.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  05:31:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JRob

quote:
One would think that they should be fighting the fight in the propane arena if they thought they had a contender in a propane engine.


There just isn't a partner for them out there like Blue Bird has with Ford or even what IC has with PSI. They won't develop one in-house through their Daimler affiliation as there is not enough meat on the bone for Daimler to get interested. They simply have to play the hand they are dealt. Besides based on what I know the lack of a Type C alt fuel platform hurts but isn't crippling.



I was just looking at the latest issue of (I think) SBF, the one called the "fact book". Looking at the numbers of units sold, I don't see how we have three manufacturers still in business. My guess would be that either IC or Thomas will be gone before long. The reason I say this isn't based of the quality of their product (I actually think, from what I've been told anyway, that IC is getting better) rather it's those two being owned by very large companies who look at bottom line and potential. The potential just doesn't seem to be there. Now, I understand that any business has to look at the bottom line but larger corporations just seem to want more and more. Where a smaller company can settle for a little less. It's a lot like my personal experience in the crude oil business. I operate one oil well that was drilled by Unical several years ago. My dad bought the lease because Union couldn't run it and make money. My dad ran it and made money and when he died I've been pretty successful in making money as well. Not a lot, mind you. But it's like a part time job. So, that's the glasses I look through when thinking about this.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  05:32:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
By the way, a neighboring school has three Thomas buses with propane engines this year. I think they are pretty satisfied with them so far.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  05:56:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

By the way, a neighboring school has three Thomas buses with propane engines this year. I think they are pretty satisfied with them so far.



We have two Thomas Propanes new this year that are working well for us also. However it looks like those will be the only two we'll ever have as they have apparently dropped the propane option.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  08:10:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

By the way, a neighboring school has three Thomas buses with propane engines this year. I think they are pretty satisfied with them so far.



We have two Thomas Propanes new this year that are working well for us also. However it looks like those will be the only two we'll ever have as they have apparently dropped the propane option.



What?! Why would they do that? That's crazy!

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  08:20:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thomas still lists it as available online. Of course with them ramping up to start pimping the new Detroit, it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped propane.
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Admin
Administrator

USA
1662 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  08:32:58 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Just wanted to let you know that the SBF January issue is available online: http://digital.schoolbusfleet.com/#&pageSet=1

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by JRob

quote:
One would think that they should be fighting the fight in the propane arena if they thought they had a contender in a propane engine.


There just isn't a partner for them out there like Blue Bird has with Ford or even what IC has with PSI. They won't develop one in-house through their Daimler affiliation as there is not enough meat on the bone for Daimler to get interested. They simply have to play the hand they are dealt. Besides based on what I know the lack of a Type C alt fuel platform hurts but isn't crippling.



I was just looking at the latest issue of (I think) SBF, the one called the "fact book". Looking at the numbers of units sold, I don't see how we have three manufacturers still in business. My guess would be that either IC or Thomas will be gone before long. The reason I say this isn't based of the quality of their product (I actually think, from what I've been told anyway, that IC is getting better) rather it's those two being owned by very large companies who look at bottom line and potential. The potential just doesn't seem to be there. Now, I understand that any business has to look at the bottom line but larger corporations just seem to want more and more. Where a smaller company can settle for a little less. It's a lot like my personal experience in the crude oil business. I operate one oil well that was drilled by Unical several years ago. My dad bought the lease because Union couldn't run it and make money. My dad ran it and made money and when he died I've been pretty successful in making money as well. Not a lot, mind you. But it's like a part time job. So, that's the glasses I look through when thinking about this.

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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  08:54:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

Thomas still lists it as available online. Of course with them ramping up to start pimping the new Detroit, it wouldn't surprise me if they dropped propane.



That's pretty brave in my estimation. I think the alternatives are going to be the road ahead. Like I've said many times, it's an all of the above solution. I know that propane can be an answer to most (if they give it a chance) but it's not the answer for all.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  09:05:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
BTW, thanks for posting the latest issue, Admin!

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  09:48:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not saying it's wise to dump the option, by any means...and I hope they don't. I'm just looking at their history. They got all excited over the MB engines and shoved them down everyone's throat. When Eaton came around, Allison seemingly got worried and got them to drop Eaton as an option. Detroit is probably pressuring the same thing. Cummins needs to watch out too.
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JRob
Advanced Member

207 Posts

Posted - 01/22/2018 :  10:10:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit JRob's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Type C & D school buses make up somewhere in the neighborhood of 15% of the Medium Duty Truck market. That is is a pretty sizable share. Navistar International was getting upwards of 90% of that back in the mid-90's as Ford exited and prior to Freightliner getting in. Freightliner wanted in because they didn't want to cede that much market to a competitor when they were trying to grow their medium business. The industry has stabilized at 3 players in the C & D world but it is conceivable that you could go to 2 as the entire market could be covered by 2 but it would take a significant increase in capacity for those 2. Who has the financial wherewithall to do that?
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