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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/20/2017 :  2:43:54 PM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
DT 466 EGR pucks wont stop leaking. Put new ones in, injector tops look good. At a fast idle oil sprays from all of them. How do you seal them? Cranking time is too long on this engine.

td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  02:46:11 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Its likely there not actually faulty they do look like there leaking all over but some is normal all you should do to verify is get the engine hot if its starts fine your good the pucks are fine. I myself have chased phantom puck leaks once I had the valve cover off after injectors and thought that cant be right , so I proceded to recheck replaced all the pucks and re-install the rail many times only to find out it was normal ...Now you say your cranking time is too long you may indeed have and issue there, but would be skeptical ive seen me and others go around and around on these thinking its not right . Also these injectors If I remember don't have oil downspouts so the oil does come out the top area under normal operation .
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dsalinas1939
Top Member

USA
1316 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  09:44:52 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
i agree wit td083 i to have chased leaking pucks the seemed as tho the leaked way to much i had a long crank before start but once i took for a rid the long crank went away probably still have air in system but the pucks look like they are leakin way to much but i believe that is normal because i had a perfectly running dt466 i took valve cover off to compare and it was sprayin oil out the tops just as bad as the one i was workin on
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  10:03:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It starts hot. It wont start until i get oil pressure on the high side. What else could cause this?
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  10:20:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
So just so I'm understanding it starts hot with a normal crank time or does it start but have an abnormal long crank before starting still and I guess your monitoring hpo reading during crank ?
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  12:17:07 PM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When its hot, crank time will be short if I dont let it sit. If I let it sit for awhile crank time will be long. It wont start till the hpo starts to come up.
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2017 :  12:54:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When its cold from sitting pull oil temp sensor right above the Hpop. there should still be oil up that high to feed the pump.

I have one that's the same model, with a cold crank of 45 seconds. It takes about 20 seconds before the oil pressure comes up then it will make high pressure oil then it will start. I have tried many different things and ended with deciding it was now normal.
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  02:46:13 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
First yea what Bfaulk said I would do 1st ... then I would compare how fast the base oil pressure rises and compare to a sister bus if its good at same engine temp cold or hot then I would suspect hpo issue possible worn hpo pump ,(though I haven't seen to many of these go bad other than leak ) atleast in my couple years , if its not and does have a big difference it is possible the base oil pump is wearing out and its not able to prime a sitting dry system fast enough for a quick start , we have done a few of these for this (a complete no start as well) though not extremely common,even upon removal they have looked fine but install a new and wham has no issue , We have a good number of these in our fleet ...again could be in left field on this one may be within normal crank time so check another bus but this is what I would check if in fact there def is an issue

Edited by - td083 on 10/24/2017 02:50:23 AM
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namao
Senior Member

Canada
89 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  06:32:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit namao's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Here is a how we approach this problem, this is a post from earlier. I do have to say though in the last year we have done a couple hpop pumps with high mileage being the issue. The porta power works on these hpop engines, take the guess work out of the job. Good luck.

POST--- looks like you got it fixed good. Here is a post I did a while back to some one, might be something you might want to look in on especially with all the buses you service. I have my porta power set up for 6.0, 7.3 and the 466. Saves a lot of guess work when figuring out if you have a leak under the v/c. ***** First thing I would do is unplug icp and try to start, it should go to a default duty cycle on the ipr and start if there is no mechanical problems. If it does not start either no oil to hpop pump, hpop pump is bad, ipr is bad or there is a leak under the v/c. Next thing we would do same as said before by one member is, we have a porta power set up to test under v/c systems for holding pressure [for 7.3/6.0 and 466] works really slick just hook up to head connection and it should give you 1500 to 2000 psi within a couple pumps and hold above 500 for a extended period of time. Under the valve cover as well as the pucks you could have a injector leaking, pull v/c cover and crank if there is a leak should be able to visually see. This is where the porta power helps it either holds or it doesn't. If there is no leaks and you have a good supply of oil from engine it needs a hpop pump. We did one on a truck couple weeks ago and hot no start and it was the pump could go either way though. good luck.

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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  09:37:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok it wont hold pressure because the pucks leak too fast. How do I get the pucks to seal? If I put air to it, it wont even hold 10 psi.

Edited by - B0b on 10/24/2017 12:00:36 PM
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  11:34:12 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by namao

Here is a how we approach this problem, this is a post from earlier. I do have to say though in the last year we have done a couple hpop pumps with high mileage being the issue. The porta power works on these hpop engines, take the guess work out of the job. Good luck.

POST--- looks like you got it fixed good. Here is a post I did a while back to some one, might be something you might want to look in on especially with all the buses you service. I have my porta power set up for 6.0, 7.3 and the 466. Saves a lot of guess work when figuring out if you have a leak under the v/c. ***** First thing I would do is unplug icp and try to start, it should go to a default duty cycle on the ipr and start if there is no mechanical problems. If it does not start either no oil to hpop pump, hpop pump is bad, ipr is bad or there is a leak under the v/c. Next thing we would do same as said before by one member is, we have a porta power set up to test under v/c systems for holding pressure [for 7.3/6.0 and 466] works really slick just hook up to head connection and it should give you 1500 to 2000 psi within a couple pumps and hold above 500 for a extended period of time. Under the valve cover as well as the pucks you could have a injector leaking, pull v/c cover and crank if there is a leak should be able to visually see. This is where the porta power helps it either holds or it doesn't. If there is no leaks and you have a good supply of oil from engine it needs a hpop pump. We did one on a truck couple weeks ago and hot no start and it was the pump could go either way though. good luck.





Where are you hooking up the port-a-power to on a 6.0?

US Army retired CMBT
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  1:39:19 PM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
When you installed the HP oil manifold, did you make sure the manifold o-ring was in place? I've done that before, forget to put the o-ring before installing the manifold and will cause long crank issues.
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namao
Senior Member

Canada
89 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  2:01:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit namao's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RonF

quote:
Originally posted by namao

Here is a how we approach this problem, this is a post from earlier. I do have to say though in the last year we have done a couple hpop pumps with high mileage being the issue. The porta power works on these hpop engines, take the guess work out of the job. Good luck.

POST--- looks like you got it fixed good. Here is a post I did a while back to some one, might be something you might want to look in on especially with all the buses you service. I have my porta power set up for 6.0, 7.3 and the 466. Saves a lot of guess work when figuring out if you have a leak under the v/c. ***** First thing I would do is unplug icp and try to start, it should go to a default duty cycle on the ipr and start if there is no mechanical problems. If it does not start either no oil to hpop pump, hpop pump is bad, ipr is bad or there is a leak under the v/c. Next thing we would do same as said before by one member is, we have a porta power set up to test under v/c systems for holding pressure [for 7.3/6.0 and 466] works really slick just hook up to head connection and it should give you 1500 to 2000 psi within a couple pumps and hold above 500 for a extended period of time. Under the valve cover as well as the pucks you could have a injector leaking, pull v/c cover and crank if there is a leak should be able to visually see. This is where the porta power helps it either holds or it doesn't. If there is no leaks and you have a good supply of oil from engine it needs a hpop pump. We did one on a truck couple weeks ago and hot no start and it was the pump could go either way though. good luck.





Where are you hooking up the port-a-power to on a 6.0?


Hello Ron same as if you were to check for leaks with air pressure, newer engines at the right v/c icp sensor with the older ones at the pump at back. I have a ford ids so on the fords just command the ipr to full close then pump up. Not seeing a lot of 6.0 there getting to expensive to fix compared to what there worth. The other ones I use a 9 volt square battery connected to the ipr , which keeps it closed with out burning it out. It works best on the old 7.3 and inline 6, no pulling v/c unless it does not hold pressure and you know you either have a leak or not, no guessing. Then of course you have to find the leak. On the 6.0 when we were doing a lot of them it was nice when you were doing head gaskets or anything major, this way before buttoning it up you could pressure the high side up and know it was good when things were still exposed. Don't use it a lot but just another tool in the tool box that's handy.
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2017 :  7:01:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

When you installed the HP oil manifold, did you make sure the manifold o-ring was in place? I've done that before, forget to put the o-ring before installing the manifold and will cause long crank issues.



O ring is in there. i can hear the air leaking out the pucks. They fit in the injectors nice and snug. Ive heard that they can unseat the poppet. I took one apart and it looks dam foolish to me. How can they all leak?
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  03:01:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Bob earlier you said it wont even hold pressure do to the pucks leaking so fast , not to speculate here but imo there is no way it would start if this were the case and you said it started hot ..something must be different on testing this system because if that were an indication on how the system is sealing again in my opinion I couldn't see it starting if it wont hold 10 psi*** of air ? What are the chances all 6 pucks are leaking and has it been removed and checked and re-installed the hpo rail .I think you have something else going on on this engine could be wrong but from what your saying doesn't sound right
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  09:23:10 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Well it does start. Its on the road 5 days a week. My customer just dosent like the long crank time compared to other vehicles in the fleet. Some start very quickly. This thing has gone through some starters and they dont like that either. I already upgraded the starter electrical system to help but that will just prolong starter life. When I have time I will compare pressures on a known good system. Maybe I will plumb a hydraulic pump into the system to get a different perspective of the problem.
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  11:51:14 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
The units(2) I have had here with long crank issues, one was relay not engaging right away and had to replace IDM module on another... never had an issue with pucks after new install, as long as I did work correctly...

I think this was covered above, but mine always appear to have massive amounts of oil coming out around top of injector when running at fast idle, but also believe that is where HP oil dumps excess oil back to crankcase out of HP oil rail... I have seen on my software( be it the older service maxx or new NEDS) where oil pressure builds quickly to 600-800 for startup, but then still takes additional time for engine to fire.... so far mine like that have always been other issues than HP oil rail problems

Edited by - slippert on 10/25/2017 11:52:34 AM
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  11:55:56 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
This engine starts as soon as the hp oil pressure starts to rise.( which takes time ) My gauge could be lazy, I may try another gauge to verify.
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TRex
Senior Member

86 Posts

Posted - 11/02/2017 :  5:00:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit TRex's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What is your base oil pressure while cranking? Can you record it and play it back to see the pressure against time. We had a 2015 this spring that was almost 30 second crank. When it started it sounded like a can of rocks. In that 30 seconds there was 0 base oil pressure. Tech support had us go after the lack of base oil pressure. Dropped pan to inspect pickup tube. Removed oil pump. Went looking for the oil pressure regulator. It is on the back side of the oil filter/cooler module. Module has to be removed to inspect. Some mild scuffing and no obvious problem bore until we compared it to a new off the shelf module. Bore was mis machined. This had been a slow start almost since new. Tech support had replace us filter module, oil pump, oil pickup tube AND inner and outer frt. covers. We always had oil at the oil temp sensor port. In hindsight we should have watched that while cranking. Anyway once the base oil pressure was fixed it started and starts fine. I was sure we were still going to have a high pressure oil problem. I think the module bore was the problem. We did not. In the late 90's we had trouble with the pick up tubes cracking pulling air into the HPOP system but that was fixed a long time ago. Sorry to run on as I am new to this forum.
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Donotpass
Active Member

14 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  05:51:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit Donotpass's Homepage  Reply with Quote
are you sure you have the HP oil rail seated correctly?

I know its excessive and $$$ but Navistar does reccomend changing injectors and pucks in a set. With that being said i have changed pucks only and had no leaks, ive also changed them and had them still leak until i replaced injector(s)
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  09:42:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I have not checked base oil pressure. Th rail seems to be seated correctly. What is the correct procedure?
This engine does seem to have sticky injectors. They need to warm up a bit to smooth out. Or could it be air in the hp system causing this? Will I need to input injector codes if I replace injectors?
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  11:01:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
What TRex said agree 100% , likely not hpo related if it starts hot and does not have a long crank hot , its when you let it sit you said, really think by your description its not a puck or injector issue but base oil pressure oil pump or regulator , id guess pump
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  11:03:36 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
As I recall oil pressure was good when running, so why the pump?
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  1:39:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Again could be wrong as its always hard to call a issue without it in person , but earlier you said it starts fine when engine is hot , now in my experience these with a high pressure leak i can get engine hot shut off wait for ***only a minute most times** and will have trouble re-starting bus like a complete no start wont build high pressure or 30 sec crank time and will start eventually. You said it would start hot but not if you let it sit a while what time frame is that ?So im premature in throwing a guess out these but ,If a while is when the engine cools down couple hours or something like that it would be hard for me to think it has a high pressure oil leak but it starts better hot than cold or even colder engine temps . And you said wont start until high pressure rises but that wont rise without base oil pressure feeding it ...not saying it is 100% the pump just thats what id guess with the info given.. saying things i would check before condeming the pucks or injectors and going that route again . But yea the when it starts is very important imo at diaging these issues or in what route to go 1st
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  3:36:42 PM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Ok, I thought the reservoir fed the hpop not needing primary oil pressure. So the primary oil system looks like the next thing to look at. If I let it sit for about 15 minutes hot, I will have a long crank time. After sitting one minute hot it will fire right up. I know how it is trying to diagnose long distance, its not the most effective way. Most of what Ive read out there does not focus on primary oil pressure. This is interesting.
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/03/2017 :  6:15:53 PM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yea ok being only 15 minutes imo still very well could be something high pressure side . kinda wanted you to say it starts fine unless it sits for hours , yea again just what i would do is monitor the base oil pressure when it long cranks if its up within a few seconds ***guessing 10 psi around there but high pressure is struggling even when base is fine then it very likely is a high pressure side issue imo again someone may have some better input just going by what i have seen numerous times .. so like if within 4 seconds it should start right after this or close to .
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2017 :  08:33:55 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Can I monitor primary oil pressure from the sensor port in the hpop reservoir?
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2017 :  04:12:29 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm sure you could but sorry was under the impression you had a laptop scanner much easier to monitor what the pressures are when your cranking . as far as base and high pressure
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B0b
Active Member

29 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2017 :  08:44:38 AM  Show Profile  Visit B0b's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I can use a scanner but I would like to see the pressures in real time with no time delay whatsoever.
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/07/2017 :  10:24:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Yea that's the easiest way just monitor icp and base when cranking with a laptop if its long cranking its nearly immediate at least ours is . Ya Just doing this to rule outa base issue possible before going the route of either digging back into high pressure stuff , injectors ,rail , pump .
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