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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  09:21:26 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am really, really frustrated with this crazy thing! 2010 unit with about 130k. This is the one we spent a bunch on for the EGR coolers and related. Then the DPF was stopped up. Now the turbo is bad. Will have over 10k in this when we're done. What else can go wrong?

Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  09:31:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

What else can go wrong?



Never, ever, ever say that! You know what misery that line brings!
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td83
Senior Member

83 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  09:39:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit td83's Homepage  Reply with Quote
--yea the coolers going bad can ruin stop up the doc , make the turbo vgt fail , once one cooler goes ya have to do both as the cold side can clog along with the egr valve ...and to top it all off technically the doc should be replaced when the coolers go as the coolant damages the doc though we have only had a few do this , but actually saw this on a bulleton from international .
---egr coolers $3000
--egr valve $300
---new turbo 4000$
--dpf ---1000$
---knowing you saved .00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001%
of ozone depletion = Priceless
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  09:49:42 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Time to switch back to gasoline.

US Army retired CMBT
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  10:34:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.

Edited by - JoeHEB1 on 06/20/2017 10:35:44 AM
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
1081 Posts

Posted - 06/20/2017 :  3:52:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Is the TCM different in IC buses? I don't bring a lot of Birds back for trans work at all. They might just ship the customer the part tho.

Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  05:19:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RonF

Time to switch back to gasoline.



Propane!

Bryan
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member

538 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  05:28:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
TD83, you certainly nailed that one lol. JoeHEB1, I have found that when I have a primer pump that leaks, I take it apart and clean the pump housing and o-ring, lube the o-ring and put it back together and it works fine again. Just some food for thought. Beats the heck out of replacing a $400 housing.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  05:44:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.



So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?

Bryan
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  06:17:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest






So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?
[/quote]

I'm getting a quote on an injector HP oil rail kit now. I'll post my price when I get them. I have a fault code 144, unable to build HP oil while cranking. Number 6 puck is leaking profusely. I'm going to rebuild the rail and replace the number 6 injector.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  06:37:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
$378 for a Reman injector and 76.75 for the o ring kit for the HP oil rail.

US Army retired CMBT
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  09:57:12 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I wouldn't count on it being fixed for life, but that does depend on what your idea of life expectancy is,, As far as how many miles before it starts over??? I always either ask my 8 ball or call the Psychic hotline, they normally say it is unclear..
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.



So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?


Edited by - slippert on 06/21/2017 10:07:13 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 06/21/2017 :  1:33:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by slippert

I wouldn't count on it being fixed for life, but that does depend on what your idea of life expectancy is,, As far as how many miles before it starts over??? I always either ask my 8 ball or call the Psychic hotline, they normally say it is unclear..
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.



So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?





Ha, ha, ha!! That is funny! To answer your question, I have one bus with about 240k on it and then another right behind it. This one has 130k on it and it's 7 years old. Doing the math I expect this one to have about 225k on it before we take it off the route. Then it'll be in the spare fleet another 5 years or so. Most spares don't get over 3k per year on them.

Bryan
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2017 :  04:33:17 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.



So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?



Injectors are over $300 each, pucks are $62 each, TCM is $800, fuel filter housing is $500 and yes you'll do it all over again 30K miles later. Oh and EGR coolers are $2100 it just doesn't stop. Imagine if you were an owner operator.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2017 :  06:36:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Injectors will soon go out, or the injector pucks leak. Your primer pump will leak and you'll have to replace the whole filter housing, you'll have hard to start issues. The TCM will give an electrical fault and will need to be replaced if it hasn't already crapped out on you. I mean we could go on and on.



So, all this that you mentioned, how much money we talking? Then, after that's done, do we have a few miles before we just start it all over again or is it fixed for life?



Injectors are over $300 each, pucks are $62 each, TCM is $800, fuel filter housing is $500 and yes you'll do it all over again 30K miles later. Oh and EGR coolers are $2100 it just doesn't stop. Imagine if you were an owner operator.



Yuck, I don't want to imagine. Of course, I didn't want to buy these buses in the first place. So, I imagine if I were and owner/ operator I wouldn't own them.

Bryan
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 06/22/2017 :  08:19:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by aaronwilmoth80911

TD83, you certainly nailed that one lol. JoeHEB1, I have found that when I have a primer pump that leaks, I take it apart and clean the pump housing and o-ring, lube the o-ring and put it back together and it works fine again. Just some food for thought. Beats the heck out of replacing a $400 housing.



Thanks for the tip! I'll give it a try next time.
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

31 Posts

Posted - 07/19/2017 :  11:35:04 PM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
9 times out of 10 the fuel filter housing has to be replaced (for us) because the primer (when pumped) wont go all the way down due to an internal brass ring breaking that holds the one way check valve in place causing a hard start... yeah they arent cheap and they all have problems--- how about the building oil?! we have had about 40-55 of that series that all build oil at one point or currently... lmfao when the buses were under warranty they got the "quick fix and shipped back, having 2,3, and even 4 trips to the dealer with the same issue is common place.. almost feel like they put a bandaid on a much bigger problem! by far the biggest joke in internationals lineup is the 2012 maxxforce dt's, which we have 90 of currently... lol wait we have had 4-5 engines all completely REPLACED under warranty because the grid heater melts off and goes down the intake--- :P yeah the "open breather" conversion might help just a bit with the carbon build up from the turbo housings ( what a joke this is) to the cac to the mixer bowl/housing and so on... saddest/funniest part was international is soo bad at making engines they didnt have that option for us this to choose int'l engines in the last round of bus buying (at least they chose a better engine this time, cummins!).. XD rust in pieces maxxforce..
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 07/20/2017 :  03:19:23 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
been there not going back we dumped 15 k in a 2011 dt just to drive it 2 weeks and lose a cyc not putting any more in it school board approved disposal at the last meeting

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 07/21/2017 :  05:35:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jeeptjken

been there not going back we dumped 15 k in a 2011 dt just to drive it 2 weeks and lose a cyc not putting any more in it school board approved disposal at the last meeting



Ah, that would be my choice! But here in the People's Republic of Madigan (Illinois) we have no money to replace buses this year. Not sure where I'm headed from here on this bus. I fear if we have much more trouble with it I'll need to pull a spare out and park this thing. Have over 10k in it since about 2 weeks prior to school getting out.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 09/26/2017 :  07:52:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Still having trouble. Beyond frustrated.

Bryan
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jeeptjken
Senior Member

147 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2017 :  03:52:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
your just getting started wiat till the cam comes out to visit or a bridge breaks and wipes the cam out

How did you get the gosinta in the whatchamacallit
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
196 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2017 :  04:35:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wait Wait Inrenational Dealer said we were the only one that is having issues like this.
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flint1
Senior Member

Canada
74 Posts

Posted - 09/27/2017 :  05:31:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As a small contractor (fleet of 5) my 2009 maxxforce dt eats me out of house and home. To make it worse navistar has in some cases doubled parts prices as it returns to profitability. My dealer has become arrogant that I now shop around as I return my small business to profitabilty. At least I never bought a v8! I did fix my maxxforce dt this summer. Not illegal in my area to delete.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/03/2017 :  09:00:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, the latest on mine is that I need to replace the same sensor that I replaced less than a month ago. I'm not frustrated with my dealer but I am getting kind of short with them. I'm trying to keep my cool. lol They've been nothing but good to me on this. Still not sure what needs to be done long term. Anyone have any ideas besides trade or repower? Is there something I need to be doing beyond the regular oil and filter change intervals?

Bryan
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drp53188
Senior Member

89 Posts

Posted - 10/05/2017 :  10:23:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bryan , is this a DT or maxxforc 7 ?
What is the problem you are having right now ?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2017 :  05:35:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by drp53188

Bryan , is this a DT or maxxforc 7 ?
What is the problem you are having right now ?



Well, I assume there is no problem with it at this very moment. Mid-West Transit has been working on it and they tell me it's fixed but they are going to test drive it at least one more time to make sure it stays fixed. I can't say enough good about Mid-West. They have a bad situation and I believe they are doing the best they can. Which is above and beyond what you'd expect.

Not sure if it's a DT for 7 to tell you the truth. Not well versed on International products at all. Anyway, this problem started before school was out last year as a code pointing to the Delta sensor. I replaced that and it was good for a few days and then all sorts of codes came up. Took to a local international dealer twice and it would stay fixed for a couple days and then come back. Called my selling dealer, MidWest, and they walked me through some things and I removed the DPF for cleaning. After that they sent someone out and they replaced a connector. That made it fixed for a couple more days and then they took it over there a couple different times. Lots of parts replaced including turbo and egr components. Came back after school started for this school year and ran for a couple weeks, check engine light came on and the code was for the Delta sensor again. Replaced that and we're back going again for a few days. Light came on again and MidWest sent someone out who thought it was the new turbo locked up. They took it back to the shop and didn't find a turbo bad but the Delta sensor again. I might add that each time the light comes on it blows white or bluish smoke. I might also add that I have never been able to get this thing to do a manual regen. And the only time the light would come on for the regen is when the bus is stopped picking up kids (I have a sister bus still running good that does the same thing on the regen). Two things frustrate me the most on this. First, I didn't want these two buses to begin with because of the research I did on the two methods of obtaining the EPA requirements. My opinion at the time was that DEF was the direction that would be the easiest and less troublesome in the long run. Looks like I was right. Second one is my concern with how much money do we spend on this thing and where's the end? Thus the reason for my original post. What else can go wrong here?

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 10/06/2017 :  11:54:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
MaxxForce 7 is a V8, MaxxForce DT is inline six

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2017 :  06:50:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

MaxxForce 7 is a V8, MaxxForce DT is inline six



OK, it's a 6 banger.

Bryan
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drp53188
Senior Member

89 Posts

Posted - 10/09/2017 :  10:03:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Depending on the build date the delta and temp sensors each had a short jumper harness mounted to the DPF bracket and connected to the main harness.
The jumper wires are junk and break all the time and that could be your problem, I make new jumpers with 14 ga wire and new hardshells.
That could be what they are finding.
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member

303 Posts

Posted - 10/25/2017 :  5:21:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cal Mc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have 13 maxxForce dt engines 2010 and 2012. Four cam failures, one destroyed the engine. We replaced the cams in the other three. The bus that we lost the engine in was one year off of warranty @150,000 km. International said they would replace the engine for $43,000. I checked with an IC bus salesman, this bus with a good engine was worth $36,000. The bus was 6 years old and we are using it for parts.
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td083
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2017 :  02:57:57 AM  Show Profile  Visit td083's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Quality Product !!
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2017 :  05:24:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are any fleets trading these MaxxForce DT buses early, and keeping older spares instead?
It's a discussion my boss and I have had.
My problem is my spares are 17+ years old and I'm in northern Ohio (rust). The last 12 years our bus procurement rate has been an average of 1.7 units per year with a fleet of 34.
It seems like more and more, there are no good answers.
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

168 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2017 :  1:01:48 PM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I as well want to keep my 05's with the 466E and ditch the 2013's with the maxx DT. It's sad that the older buses run better, start better, and leak less inside the body then the new buses.
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eddo
Advanced Member

USA
311 Posts

Posted - 10/26/2017 :  2:35:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I've got two 1990 IH's with DT360's in them that the higher ups are forcing me to get rid of.

Most dependable trucks I have ever seen. Hoping the 2018 IH w/Cummins that are replacing them are just as dependable. but not holding my breath...
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2017 :  04:13:37 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by eddo

I've got two 1990 IH's with DT360's in them that the higher ups are forcing me to get rid of.

Most dependable trucks I have ever seen. Hoping the 2018 IH w/Cummins that are replacing them are just as dependable. but not holding my breath...




We still have 10 DT360 and I agree, most dependable. I would send one of those buses out of town on a field trip before I'd send a brand new bus.

Edited by - JoeHEB1 on 10/27/2017 07:31:30 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2017 :  06:51:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Tough questions! I did replace two VT365 buses before they were due here a few years ago. Best decision I've ever made. These Maxxforce DTs aren't as bad, in my opinion. Plus, our financial outlook isn't as clear as it was when we traded the VTs. As for running a bus out of town.... Hmm, much of what we do in a public school setting is "perception". If I were to send an old bus on a trip and it breaks down all the while I had a new bus available. Uh, well, I would be drawn and quartered. However, if I sent a new (or newer) bus and it broke down... no problem, that's an issue that's on the bus manufacturer. At what age does that thought wear off? I'm not sure.

Bryan
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