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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2016 :  11:46:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Background checks on pre-employment here but not every 5years. That's interesting.

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/29/2016 :  6:29:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ohio, background check upon employment and random drug test.
Retest, recert every six years with updated fingerprint and background test.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  04:33:33 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What he said ^. That's 2 actually, an FBI and BCI (Ohio Bureau Of Criminal Investigation) check. Youc an forgo the one of them in certain circumstances, but I don't know anyone who does. Cheap insurance to just run them both.

To be fair, such checks wouldn't have stopped the TN driver from employment, unless there is something the investigators have not yet made public.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  05:12:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
On the TN guy, it sounds like there was at least one time that he had an issue. Can't say I would have let him go. It's like the rehab thing I was talking about. But how do you catch that? I would love to hear some insite on this particular line of thought when this is over. It may help the rest of us see something coming. I hope the TD, or other supervisor, will be able to do a presentation at NAPT or something.

Bryan
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BigPapa
Advanced Member

215 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  05:28:19 AM  Show Profile  Visit BigPapa's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I know this may not be a popular solution but I think there should be a monitor on each bus. This would solve several issues. By putting the monitor in charge of the children the driver can concentrate on driving only. The monitor would also help keep a check on the driver. With another adult on the bus the driver will be more apt to do what he/she is supposed to do, drive the correct speed and not take chances. You would also need to rotate the monitors from one bus to another to keep them from getting so attached to the driver that they might “cover up” for issues and it would keep the kids on their toes, too.

Torque’s first post comparing trash truck drivers and bus drivers is spot on. I understand that school systems have to keep the expenses down but at what cost? This situation calls for a more pro-active solution than reactive. The concentration should be to PREVENT accidents and THEN prepare for the accident that MAY happen. I know accidents will happen that are not caused by bus driver error or mechanical failures such as the recent accident in Colorado where the bus got slammed by a dozing truck driver, these are unpreventable on our part, but if we can PREVENT the accidents that are in our control we would be WAY ahead of the problem.

I too believe the knee jerk reaction is going to be seat belts on every bus. I understand that schools systems have got to hold down expenses but, when you’re talking about $10K per bus for seat belts I think that money would be much better spent by going with a monitor.

With a logical, historical, analytic view of pupil transportation, the school bus, even without seat belts, has consistently been the safest means of transportation, period. This knee jerk reaction, to me, is much like the gun control issue. The only time it is brought up is after a terrible loss of life, such as a mass shooting or an accident like Chattanooga. When this happens, we are hit with the highly emotional pleas from victims that cannot be dismissed, but the logical solution is overlooked. The issue is not the gun or the lack of seat belts, the problem is the shooter or the cause of the accident.

A couple of questions come to mind about the seat belts IF they are mandated:

• Who is going to make sure that all 75 to 80 kids on a bus not only have their seat belts on, but have them on properly?
• Who is going to be responsible when an accident happens and a child that did not have his seat belt on is injured?
• What will happen when an accident occurs and children WITH seat belts are still injured?
• What will happen when an accident such as a rollover, water submersion, or fire happens and children are killed because they can’t get out, much like the window debate?

Just my $0.02…..

Scott

Edited by - BigPapa on 11/30/2016 05:29:15 AM
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  05:54:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree with the bus monitor idea. In addition to the points Scott (bigpapa) raised, an additional benefit of having bus aides might be an easier time recruiting and retaining drivers.

Which route would you prefer, 60 kids with or without a bus monitor?

Edited by - second.flood on 11/30/2016 05:55:56 AM
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mwood
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  06:33:06 AM  Show Profile  Visit mwood's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I completely agree with the monitor on the bus. How is it ok for a "certified teacher" to only have to watch 20 kids in a classroom but we put 50+ kids on a bus with one person in charge of not only driving safely but keeping kids from jumping out windows and beating each other with book bags. I am a young driver. Started driving at 26 years old. Currently 29 and took over as head bus mechanic 2 years ago. I only sub currently but I usually do that atleast 2 maybe 3 times a week. Now for pay I feel or drivers are compinsated well for our area. Subs get a flat rate of 70 a day for morning and evening run. Route drivers start out at about 45 a day with full benefits including paid insurance sick leave and retirement and longer routes (over 100 miles) also get a stipend of 8 extra dollars a day. This job is not intended to be a primary income job this is for farmers or retirees in my opinion. I am the youngest driver our district has and we also have 2 drivers 75+ years old. They currently are subject to missouri law and have to be retested every year on there pretrial and driving test. We also do preemployment background check and finger printing and random drug test. I personally don't think seat belts are the answer to the problem for the simple reason of in a fire or water submerged accident who's kids will you save first? Your own, your neighbors,it will always be a problem no matter what is done. I have asked our state inspectors the question several times if seatbelts are mandatory how will they check them and get the simple answer of a laugh. BUT here in Missouri were still dealing with on the new bb with led lights on stop signs if one bulb is out they fail the bus so you kinda catch were I'm going with that.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  07:17:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Of those 50 plus kids on the bus it is likely that a few of them may have full time one on one aids that won't let them out of their sight all day while in the school house, yet the bus driver is supposed to monitor them. The challenge is enormous on the newer buses with the tall seat backs.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  09:01:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mwood

Now for pay I feel or drivers are compinsated well for our area. Subs get a flat rate of 70 a day for morning and evening run. Route drivers start out at about 45 a day with full benefits including paid insurance sick leave and retirement and longer routes (over 100 miles) also get a stipend of 8 extra dollars a day. This job is not intended to be a primary income job this is for farmers or retirees in my opinion.



The pay you quote is atrocious and pretty much sums up the problems finding and retaining drivers.
The old attitude that driving a school bus is just a part time job and for retirees and farmers doesn't fill the seats any longer.
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mwood
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  09:20:05 AM  Show Profile  Visit mwood's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That is only starting pay for step one driver. We have a 32 step program that basically increases your pay every year. What is the salary where your located? You are correct on the part that it done fill seat anymore I've subbed about 15 days a month this year since school started, but it always come down to the almighty dollar.

Edited by - mwood on 11/30/2016 09:22:04 AM
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  10:04:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mwood

That is only starting pay for step one driver. We have a 32 step program that basically increases your pay every year. What is the salary where your located? You are correct on the part that it done fill seat anymore I've subbed about 15 days a month this year since school started, but it always come down to the almighty dollar.



Starting pay is $17+ and maxes out around $26.
4hr minimum and insurance/sick days and retirement.
Our drivers get full wage on trips and we still have trouble filling seats.
It is still part time but the job hours eat up the day.




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mwood
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  10:35:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit mwood's Homepage  Reply with Quote
That's great pay. Our trips only pay 8.50 an hour. Is this through your district our are you a contract company. big city or rural area?

Edited by - mwood on 11/30/2016 10:53:25 AM
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 11/30/2016 :  11:56:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mwood

That's great pay. Our trips only pay 8.50 an hour. Is this through your district our are you a contract company. big city or rural area?



Small city. Board owned. 33 buses.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2016 :  08:53:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mwood

That's great pay. Our trips only pay 8.50 an hour. Is this through your district our are you a contract company. big city or rural area?



You are, for all intents and purposes, competing with what's available in your area. That's where the trash truck drivers, neighboring districts, etc. comes in. 8.50 is awful but if it works, it works. If you are having trouble getting/ keeping drivers, I'd start with pay. However, if you are guaranteeing 8 hours a day then you are really paying 17 bucks an hour and pay may not be your problem. There are so many variables here, it's really hard to judge without seeing your entire compensation package. Which, you don't want to discuss here!

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2016 :  09:42:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not guaranteeing 8 hours here.
4hrs. is one days work.
Public school employee contracts are public record.

Edited by - second.flood on 12/01/2016 09:47:55 AM
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mwood
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 12/01/2016 :  11:19:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit mwood's Homepage  Reply with Quote
were not guaranteeing any hours some of our trips may be 2 hrs some may be for 2 days. all depends we are in a very rural area here so finding drivers is like pulling teeth and i will agree that pay has alot to do with it. we have several drivers that are small business owners as well as mail carriers and so forth. I'm not our district TD but still have to deal with drivers on a daily bases.
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KnuckleBuster76
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2016 :  03:30:27 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I gotta say that I was heartbroken to hear of this. I think the biggest problem is that every company is so hard-up for drivers. I have a route and need to sub sometimes as well. I'm not cut out to be a school bus driver, I don't have the patience for it. The biggest problem is that companies almost HAVE to overlook soany things because they need drivers so bad. "Anyone who can hold a steering wheel" is who they're forced to hire. I'm concerned every day with our aging drivers... they're all 70+ years old, our oldest is 83. But what younger person, other than a slacker, wants so few hours? All I can do, as a mechanic, is keep them in safe mechanical condition and tell the old farts to take a spare if I feel the bus is unsafe to drive.

"Just... I dunno... Just fix it."
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mwood
Active Member

45 Posts

Posted - 12/02/2016 :  4:20:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit mwood's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Our oldest driver is 76 but in Missouri once they hit 70 they have to do driving and pretrip test every year. It's a very frustrating job and in this day you never know what could happen on a bus with the way some kids act
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2016 :  08:25:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mwood

Our oldest driver is 76 but in Missouri once they hit 70 they have to do driving and pretrip test every year. It's a very frustrating job and in this day you never know what could happen on a bus with the way some kids act



Discipline is another issue I think needs some attention. I wonder how many accidents are caused by discipline issues? The school administration has to communicate with transportation on these issues. Fortunately, I have a great admin to work with. It doesn't take long to either resolve the issue or the child doesn't ride the bus here.

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2016 :  09:33:01 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by mwood

Our oldest driver is 76 but in Missouri once they hit 70 they have to do driving and pretrip test every year. It's a very frustrating job and in this day you never know what could happen on a bus with the way some kids act



Discipline is another issue I think needs some attention. I wonder how many accidents are caused by discipline issues? The school administration has to communicate with transportation on these issues. Fortunately, I have a great admin to work with. It doesn't take long to either resolve the issue or the child doesn't ride the bus here.



In a high poverty/high IEP district, this isn't always an option (removing kids from the bus)
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2016 :  10:08:58 AM  Show Profile  Send BJ Henderson an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Driver training will help safety. If done properly it can be very effective. Driver safety awards, incentives can also be of value.

CMTT,CMAT,CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/05/2016 :  10:31:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by mwood

Our oldest driver is 76 but in Missouri once they hit 70 they have to do driving and pretrip test every year. It's a very frustrating job and in this day you never know what could happen on a bus with the way some kids act



Discipline is another issue I think needs some attention. I wonder how many accidents are caused by discipline issues? The school administration has to communicate with transportation on these issues. Fortunately, I have a great admin to work with. It doesn't take long to either resolve the issue or the child doesn't ride the bus here.



In a high poverty/high IEP district, this isn't always an option (removing kids from the bus)



It's harder to do it but not impossible. That's where a good admin.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2016 :  2:07:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Does anyone know if there will be a way to see the report that comes out after the accident investigators are finished with this one TN? It would be interesting to see others as well. I think we have a heck of a group here that is from a diverse background that could lend a helping hand, who actually daily bus experience. Just a thought.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/07/2016 :  2:35:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This was posted on SBF yesterday and I didn't see it until today.
http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/news/719003/ntsb-ends-on-scene-investigation-in-chattanooga-durham-takes-new-safety-measures

Bryan
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  07:23:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It seems that we all agree that finding good and dedicated drivers is difficult. It would stand to reason that replacing questionable drivers would be more difficult. “Through this system, teachers and administrators will be able to quickly and directly report issues they have with individual buses or drivers,” Duke said. “This bolsters our existing system and enables us to more quickly take corrective action.”
While the steps taken to monitor and police driver behavior by setting up a position to evaluate and take action against complaints reported is a good thing (though youd figure supervisors would be doing this already), how can an already short staffed department cover its operations? Seems to me that this driver had already had several complaints and they either were not addressed, or they were too strapped for drivers to let him go. In either case the bottom line is getting enough people to find the job desirable, trained to do it, and have enough leverage to select the best drivers from that pool.

So where do we go from here?

-Ken-
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Sherm
Top Member

USA
621 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  07:42:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You'll keep more drivers in the driver's seat if the students are held accountable for their actions with swift and appropriate discipline. Bad behavior should = time off the bus. Too much time off the bus should = time out of school. Bottom line...the same consequences should apply on the bus that apply in the classroom. It may not be politically correct, but it has to happen in my opinion.

All the "student management training" in the world won't improve student behavior. While many of the approaches taught to drivers are somewhat helpful and occasionally effective, they simply don't work with many students.

Once drivers don't have to worry about being thrown to the "wolves," more quality people will step up to do this job and will remain in this job, thereby bringing consistency and safety to the table that doesn't currently exist. It's not all about pay; I've had issues staying fully staffed in a department that paid between $20-$30/hour.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  08:57:17 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I want to point out that, although I agree with Ken, I in no way "blame" the company in question. May they deserve part of the blame? Probably. However, I believe keeping drivers is more of an art than anything. The "art' involves many people and that is where things fall apart quickly if you aren't very careful. The relationship with administration is a very important key to dealing with student discipline and, by extension, driver success. If the students aren't held accountable, as Sherm is talking about, then things go south pretty fast. The main problem I've seen is that it's hard to see what a child is doing over the course of time. If admin doesn't make an effort to document and follow up, a child will just keep doing what he/she is doing and make things worse. I hope the investigation into this accident, and others, will consider these factors.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  11:48:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Does anyone know if there will be a way to see the report that comes out after the accident investigators are finished with this one TN? It would be interesting to see others as well. I think we have a heck of a group here that is from a diverse background that could lend a helping hand, who actually daily bus experience. Just a thought.



NTSB or local report? Local reports sometimes a news station will post online. NTSB reports are available at:
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/AccidentReports.aspx

You can also look at accident dockets that have stuff like photos, interviews, bus build data, and more. All won't be posted until after the report is complete though.

The reports are usually pretty long, but there is a lot of good information in them.
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  1:27:03 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Does anyone know if there will be a way to see the report that comes out after the accident investigators are finished with this one TN? It would be interesting to see others as well. I think we have a heck of a group here that is from a diverse background that could lend a helping hand, who actually daily bus experience. Just a thought.



Says 12-18 months before the report will be done.
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BJ Henderson
Advanced Member

USA
280 Posts

Posted - 12/08/2016 :  6:30:31 PM  Show Profile  Send BJ Henderson an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Part of the problem is that teachers and administrators that have huge degrees that cannot pull a bus out it's tracks can dictate what goes on inside the bus as far as seating arrangements. These drivers take children out in the most dangerous place you can, by themselves. No greater responsibility anywhere in the school system, period. But, drivers are considered second class citizens in many districts.

CMTT,CMAT,CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/09/2016 :  04:30:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by BJ Henderson

Part of the problem is that teachers and administrators that have huge degrees that cannot pull a bus out it's tracks can dictate what goes on inside the bus as far as seating arrangements. These drivers take children out in the most dangerous place you can, by themselves. No greater responsibility anywhere in the school system, period. But, drivers are considered second class citizens in many districts.



I agree this is the sentiment across the education field. However, a good TD/ manager can make some headway when representing the department to these people.

Bryan
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