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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
 Posted - 11/25/2016 : 05:45:26 AM
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I would like to open this by saying I am very distraught over the lost of life in TN. I cannot imagine losing a child for any reason much less on a school bus where he/ she is suppose to be safe as if they were sitting in my house. I continue to pray daily for those families.
Safety should be in our foremost thoughts as leaders in our field. Yes, leaders. All of you who frequent this site are leaders. You may not feel like leader at times but the tone you set (even if your boss doesn't set the best tone) permeates throughout your operation. Your attitude, depending on your situation, can have a large impact on the way others treat this equipment and the way they drive it. Respect for you and the equipment is natural for many but must be learned by others.
Now, I do not have any inside information on the situation in TN. I only know what I read in the news media. However, I do know people. The industry continues to make improvements to this equipment so skill is taken out of the equation. However, that is no substitute for having the best people and attitudes on the job.
Now, on to what I really wanted to discuss here. What safety issues do you, as folks who maintain these machines, see that need improvement?
Personally, I think laminated glass should be mandatory on side glass.
ALSO, A REMINDER; I AM ONLY ONE OF YOU, EVEN THOUGH I HAVE ADMINISTRATOR BESIDE MY NAME. THAT IS ONLY FOR THIS FORUM AND ISN'T INTENDED TO BE A TITLE OF AUTHORITY. |
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second.flood
Top Member
USA
640 Posts |
Posted - 11/26/2016 : 5:25:18 PM
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Probably not a popular opinion, but I feel drivers need to be paid much more and the driver pool would then be much better.
I also don't agree with a for profit model in school transportation.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/27/2016 : 2:54:32 PM
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I am split with you on this, in theory anyway. In theory, a private business either does well or goes out of business. As for drivers, I agree they need to be paid better, even though I have one driver who makes about as much as I do (per hour anyway).
However, you must have a good manager and the management up from the driver's direct supervisor must be willing to have a good department as well. You must be willing to fire those who don't improve. |
Bryan |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 07:52:54 AM
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I don't know about there, but here, the driver picking up your garbage here in many cases is getting close to double the wage of a school bus driver. Plus good benefits.
Think about that for a minute. Pay more to pick up your garbage than your children.
Here, the teachers want no more than 28 students in a class so they can manage them better. :)
But we pack up to 72 in a bus. Expect the driver to look after all these students, oh, and while you are at it, drive the bus safely, get that plate number if someone drives through your lights...........
Here there is no more money for drivers because the greedy school teachers that strike every chance they get, hold the province hostage until they get what they want. I would not be surprised if our teacher are the highest paid in North America. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 08:00:39 AM
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| I can't say our teachers are to blame here. We are a very small school with limited funds. Everyone from the super down are underpaid as compared to many neighboring districts. |
Bryan |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 08:07:49 AM
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I second what others have said about driver pay but would also like to add in training. We do all in house training here and they do not even go to the road test until they have had 2 months of training with our head driver. From start to finish it is usually about 3 months of 2 hours a day before they are put with kids. Then they must driver every run for a week, riding then driving before they are ever put solo.
I know that with other districts there are different policys and we work with a privet company for a neighbor district. There the training is very lax and we are often having to remind and retrain the drivers when they start for us. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 09:19:39 AM
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bfaulkner, what state are you in? Is what you're talking about a statewide requirement or is that just your operation's policy?
Couple other things I was thinking about; If a driver is not doing a good job, is it better to rehab or just release them and try again?
Second question is more mechanical; I noticed the side windows are broken out on this bus in TN. I'm wondering if these were laminated or tempered. If they were tempered, why do states still allow tempered? Does laminated hold better than tempered on a side window? |
Bryan |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 09:51:36 AM
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Laminated will hold the broken glass together better, not sure in the end if it is better to have it hold together or just to have it scatter? If it is held together, you rub your hand or face on it, you will get cut. If the pieces scatter ?? Not sure which is better.
I remember a few years back reading an article where automakers wanted to put the laminate in the inside of the windshield, not between the glass to lessen injuries. In the end they were not allowed to because regulators felt we would be replacing more windshield as the laminate is not as durable under normal conditions.
I believe this article was from the USA.
Driver rehab? good question, does the driver just need fine tuning, would be a waste of resources you have have already invested to toss a driver if all they needed was a bit more training.
Hard call to make. Here and many other areas I hear, don't have people lined up to drive a bus.
Hopefully this was just a one in a million and wont happen again. |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 10:38:50 AM
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| I think that supervisors need to take complaints more serious. From what I have seen, there are some drivers who have a great personality and are great with their kids and student management. However, I wouldn't trust them to drive out of the parking lot. I have personally complained about certain drivers and their driving habits (speeding, rolling through stop signs, etc), and at most, they have been given a slap on the wrist or they have a trainer ride with them for a route to evaluate them, which is a complete joke. When they know they are being watched, they are on their best behavior. After the trainer "finds nothing wrong", they are back on the road doing the same stuff. It is completely absurd. A lot of it comes down to the point of not having enough drivers and that we can't afford to lose another one. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 10:46:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by aaronwilmoth80911
A lot of it comes down to the point of not having enough drivers and that we can't afford to lose another one.
Which goes back to pay & benefits. There is a happy medium there someplace. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 10:52:20 AM
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| With this latest incident, in TN, I am concerned about keeping the children in the bus if it turns over. So, will laminate do the job? Did this bus have laminate or tempered? I, personally, believe that seat belts aren't going to solve the problem. I haven't seen any studies since NY and other states have had them but I'm wondering what percentage of kids wear them and what kind of injuries they are seeing (or not seeing) in low speed crashes. I have read a story about studies that show more internal injuries in a low speed crash with seat belts. Anyone else have info? |
Bryan |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 10:56:44 AM
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| The way I see it, is driving is a good job for an older person who is already retired and either needs the job for insurance, or wants a job to not be bored in their retired life. At least with what drivers get paid, that's about the best way to sum it up. We have younger drivers, but they lack discipline, some have not been driving a regular car for very long and we want to trust them with a bus, they want to be the kids' friend not any type of authority. I'm not saying all young drivers are bad, but from what I have seen come through our department, this is what I have experienced. Our state either just passed or is in the process of passing a rule changing the age limit to 18 from 21. That scares the hell out of me to even think about letting an 18 year old behind the wheel of a bus. 21 is honestly bad enough in my opinion. |
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bfaulkner
Senior Member
168 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 11:17:35 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
bfaulkner, what state are you in? Is what you're talking about a statewide requirement or is that just your operation's policy?
We are in Michigan. It is just a district policy, and then its not even written it just how we operate. We believe in a thorough training program because yes driving is very hard and I feel for all drivers.
As for seat belts one of our retired subs just got back from Florida vacation. while there she visited a facility and was talking to drivers there. she was told that a lot of the seat belts are not worn and used to hit other kids. While this may be isolated it is the same thing we would expect to happen with out kids. its just hard to enforce without putting an aid on every bus. |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 11:31:54 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by bwest
With this latest incident, in TN, I am concerned about keeping the children in the bus if it turns over. So, will laminate do the job?
Now I see what you were getting at, I don't think it would. Anything I have read says the laminate it just to hold the broken pieces in place.
You can peel back a shattered windshield (gloves recommended ) fairly easily.
In a car, just the windshield is laminated no? Side and rear glass are just tempered? |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 11:44:08 AM
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| I have been on both sides of the fence on laminated versus tempered glass on our buses. Biggest downside of the laminated is the added weight. Laminated side glass, plastic side window latches and rough roads have been a troublesome combination for us. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 11:57:06 AM
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One major disadvantage to laminate is for urgent emergency egress. See Alton, Texas bus crash with submersion. Trapped passengers found it difficult to impossible to break the glass out of the frames. They were laminate windows.
Carrollton, KY survivors reported the same problem, but I don't know if that was tempered or laminate.
Of course we can only speculate what difference laminate glass might have made in those events.
I see what I believe are Zonar "tags" and antenna on the TN crash bus, that'll aid investigators (assuming it was working). I guess knowing he was GPS'ed wasn't enough to slow him down though.
I won't comment on age as I was 18 when I started.
Knee-jerk reaction is going to be seatbelts. I'd rather wait to all the facts are in. |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 1:31:19 PM
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| I'm definitely not saying that age is always going to be a factor, just from what I have seen where I work is that our older drivers tend to care a little more. I don't know if it is due to age/maturity, or if it is due to that most of them like doing the job. But, we have had some younger drivers that do a very good job. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 2:04:05 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
Knee-jerk reaction is going to be seatbelts. I'd rather wait to all the facts are in.
Exactly what I'm afraid of. I want to see all the facts put out there and weighed, legitimately, before we go seatbelts. If I can see where seatbelts can save more lives than hurt, I'm ok with it. However, if we can make a window that will keep them inside the bus I think that will be a better alternative. |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 2:11:06 PM
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A young person, often, thinks they can do anything. That's a good thing if you are trying to persevere in a job or project but not so much when you think you can drive beyond the speed limit around a curve. That feeling, from my own experience, lasts beyond the 21 year old mark.
So, basically we are talking two issues here. (which I thought we would) One is driver experience/ skill and the other is the mechanical angle. I have often said I didn't want to add more mechanical or electrical things to a bus. But if you are improving the situation and not making things worse, it's a good thing. |
Bryan |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 2:44:55 PM
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| sounds like most of us are of a mind that the position requires higher pay to retain good drivers and replace bad ones. as far as accidents go, i havent seen the stats but it would stand to reason that most of these incidents involve speeding. which reminds me, i just heard a complaint about one of my drivers, and i need to go drop the governed speed down to 40. (thumbs up & evil smiley face) |
-Ken- |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 2:58:34 PM
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@krmvcs, what will governing the speed do? I understand what it will do and I get why you're doing it, but what does it teach the driver. This is a problem I see where I'm at. Rather than fix the problem (the driver), lets just find a way around it to remedy the situation. I get it, but is it truly the correct answer? In some cases, it may get the point across to the driver, but in other cases it may just piss them off and make them care even less about what they are doing.
I strongly believe that human error will be more of a cause in any of these incidents that happen as opposed to mechanical failure. I believe that we as technicians/mechanics do our best every day and that the vast majority of us care enough to keep these pieces of equipment safe on a daily basis. There are times where we may overlook something, as we are also human. I think the manufacturers are doing the best possible job they can to make their products safe and affordable and will continue to do so. |
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baptistbusman1
Senior Member
USA
175 Posts |
Posted - 11/28/2016 : 3:05:56 PM
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Yep, more pay to keep decent drivers. And better training. At our training meetings, we have to watch those stupid "how to identify child molesters" stuff every time. Fine and dandy, yes we need that, but how about required training on how to make stops properly, and how to unload at school properly. Everyone needs a refresher. Everyone needs graded on whether or not they suck as drivers. I've seen drivers letting the kids walk around the bus and jump seats and everything else.
I also believe they need to figure out a way to cap the amount of money a new school bus costs. I remember in 2006, buying new FS65's for around $45,000. Now for a bare bones C2, it's around $80,000 for a bunch of emissions junk. Plus computers costing $800, door motors costing $800, lights that cost $20. So say what you want about profits or what ever, but schools/contractors are going to keep buses longer and so less maintenance and so on. There are a lot of factors out there, and unfortunately the kids safety is put behind the environment.
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I was formally Baptistbusman. However, I lost my password, and had not updated my email address.
Here is a link to my old posts. http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/search.asp?mode=DoIt&MEMBER_ID=1846 |
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Thomasbus24
Administrator
USA
4546 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 04:23:26 AM
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Its in the works and there will come a day when the bus is road speed limited by what road it is on. Interstate with a 70 MPH limit, the bus will max out there, small residential street with posted 25 limit, you'll go a max of 25.
I don't like it, but it's coming.
In my back yard is Transportation Research Center (TRC for short). They do all sorts of neat stuff with buses and trucks there. The did the testing and lot of Blue Bird's traction control video footage was shot there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsqRWBkNMFM **this guy has better intestinal fortitude than I do**
Just yesterday I read about a self-driving truck that will be driving itself to TRC. It's already happened out west. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/wireStory/driving-truck-hits-road-ohio-discusses-research-43778026
Again, I don't like it, but it's coming.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 05:29:54 AM
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| Lots of information here! It's safe to say that there's more than one answer to this. Aaron and Cory, we are thinking old school (which isn't a bad thing). Pat, I can see where this will be something that they'll use. My older Garmin posts the speed, right on the screen, within feet of the sign on the road! The technology is there! The issue is going to be getting the equipment on the bus without breaking the bank and keeping everything updated. My Garmin hasn't been updated in quite some time and it still post 65 in Illinois where we've had 70 for some time now. So, if we can stay away from knee jerk reactions, I think this problem will get solved. What am I saying? There is no "we", it's going to be the folks at USDOT and state DOTs that do this. Hopefully, they'll ask our opinion! |
Bryan |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 05:37:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24
In my back yard is Transportation Research Center (TRC for short). They do all sorts of neat stuff with buses and trucks there. The did the testing and lot of Blue Bird's traction control video footage was shot there. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsqRWBkNMFM **this guy has better intestinal fortitude than I do**
That guy is a heck of a driver! Nice! |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 06:51:49 AM
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| A phrase we hear a lot is "you can't fix stupid", we can however spend a lot of money trying. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 06:59:42 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by Fastback
A phrase we hear a lot is "you can't fix stupid", we can however spend a lot of money trying.
That is something that needs a study! lol  |
Bryan |
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torque
Advanced Member
Canada
358 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 07:37:42 AM
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| Another good phrase, "build something idiot proof, the world will build a better idiot" |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 07:38:15 AM
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@ aaron.
I dont think reducing the governed speed is really going to do anything but aggravate the driver. I was joking about it. I dont know how it is in other states, but here in CA a loaded school bus is limited to a max speed of 55 on the highway, but may drive the posted limit above that without passengers.
As for what to do about drivers, im sure many of you are in the same situation im in; weve got enough drivers to run routes unless more than one call in sick. I dont see any way around this that doesnt involve raising wages. How can we run a transportation operation that demands excellence when someone can get paid more for less responsibility driving something else? And how can we enforce accountability if we have no one to replace a driver that must be let go?
One small solution at my operation is that a couple drivers also work on school maintenance to round out their 40hr work week, making their job full time and shortening the big split in their shift. Aside from wages and the above example, what other ideas have your operations enacted in increase driver retention? |
-Ken- |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 08:31:34 AM
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@ Krmvcs, I kinda figured you were joking, but this is the kinds of things I see happen where I work. It seems a bit silly to me to "fix the situation" as opposed to taking care of the actual problem.
My district tried making solutions for increasing driver retention. Right before I started here, we went to a tiered bell schedule which was able to increase driver hours from a 20 hour minimum to a 25 hour minimum. We also had drivers that were being lunch monitors at some of the schools. We have extra hour positions such as shop help (sweeping, dumping trash, small work orders), bus washing, office help (recycling, filing, etc), seat repairs, and a couple other random people doing things to help out and get a few extra hours. We service our local military base and they want at least one bus on base at all times during school hours, so we have drivers that get paid 2 extra hours a day to literally sit in their bus. Also with servicing the base, our preschool drivers would be allowed to sit on base between the end of their mid day route and beginning of pm routes so as to avoid driving back to the barn.
Some of these things changed this year, however. We no longer allow the preschool drivers to sit on base, they have to return. This really threw some drivers for a loop who have been used to getting those extra hours for a few years now. Our bell schedule also changed, so drivers are struggling to get their 25 hours, whereas before it was pretty easy for them to do plus get a few extra hours just for their regular routes. Not surprisingly, our driver turn over rate has gone up quite a bit. |
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krmvcs
Advanced Member
362 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 08:58:15 AM
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@ aaron
are you in the springs? if so its a small world. i used to live where you are and went to cheyenne HS for a year.
All those sound like pretty good incentives for the most part. What was the reason the change? |
-Ken- |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 09:18:31 AM
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I'm actually in Fountain, but close enough to the Springs. And yea, small world.
As far as the bell schedule change, my understanding is that high schoolers were getting home too late if they had sports practice. School was from 8:30-4:00, now it is 8:00-3:30. Also one of the middle schools decided that they need to start 15 minutes later than the other middle school, but I'm not sure why. So now we have our buses stretched thinner as they are all over the place all at the same time. You wouldn't think it'd make that big of a difference, but it sure did. As far as the preschool drivers staying on base, I'm not sure why they made that change either. But, it puts more miles on the buses, more fuel used, and more wear and tear. With the recent changes, we have used double the amount fuel used compared to the same time last year.
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 09:19:43 AM
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| I am a small district here. Only 11 routes. Anyway, I think the key is to hire the right person. What I mean by that is this; if you hire a young, working age, person you are probably hiring someone who will move on in a short while. If you hire a housewife, minister, retired person, or small business owner (farmer in our area) I believe you will have better luck retaining people. I also try to stay away from someone who will stir things up. I don't do drama! I've been there and done that and got the t-shirt. lol |
Bryan |
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aaronwilmoth80911
Top Member
538 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 10:28:51 AM
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| I think you're definitely onto something Bryan. I think with a smaller/rural district, you get better luck with that. Bigger districts tend to be different. At least with a small district or a rural district, the person in charge of hiring may be more likely to know the person they are interested in hiring. Larger districts may not have that "luxury." It can definitely be hard to tell a person's true colors in a 10 minute interview. |
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bwest
Administrator
United States
3820 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 10:36:58 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by aaronwilmoth80911
I think you're definitely onto something Bryan. I think with a smaller/rural district, you get better luck with that. Bigger districts tend to be different. At least with a small district or a rural district, the person in charge of hiring may be more likely to know the person they are interested in hiring. Larger districts may not have that "luxury." It can definitely be hard to tell a person's true colors in a 10 minute interview.
There are definitely advantages to our area. However, contrary to what folks in a large area might think, lol, there are people who I hire whom I do not know.  In that case a call to a previous employer or two and some well placed questions will get the nessasary information. But, I do know the city way of doing things is somewhat different. I have often wondered how I'd fit in as a TD at a large district. Then I come to my senses and realize I'm right where God wants me.  |
Bryan |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 11/29/2016 : 11:29:25 AM
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| In Iowa we are required to do background checks before hire and every five years afterwords regardless of if we know the person or not. |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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Topic |
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Bus Accidents & How to Prevent Them
