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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2016 :  10:00:23 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Any one else having this problem with their IC's. I have several that need at least 10 that need replacing and they're not cheap (over $100). Of course they are out of warranty.






Edited by - JoeHEB1 on 08/31/2016 05:24:50 AM

RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2016 :  10:10:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yes, cheaply built bus. Been replacing the frames.

US Army retired CMBT
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2016 :  10:27:34 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Yes have seen it since my 2012ish and newer buses with the IMMI seats, nice thing is vinyl cover has snap lock at bottom(not 500 staples) and back is replaceable lol.... IC's initial fix was to put screws thru pan into steel tube that lasted for a short time then you end up buying replacement backs anyway...

The latest version(part #3683878C5)has 1 inch by 1/8 inch steel strap running down both sides, time will yell if they hold up for rest of buses life..??! I purchased from Navistar dealer for $65 bucks each... over $100 sounds too high priced!

I keep at least a dozen in shop, for awhile a couple years ago I had to wait 3-4 months to get my hands on some of them... so keep extra here now... I pulled some of my seats apart on a 2015 this summer they have updated seat back in them now....

Edited by - slippert on 08/29/2016 10:30:03 AM
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2016 :  11:31:22 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the part number @slippert. I just ordered a few. We paid $166 for the last one we replaced.

Edited by - JoeHEB1 on 08/29/2016 12:05:21 PM
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ICBUS07-30
Senior Member

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 08/29/2016 :  3:39:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two years ago we welded all of our ICs 04-09 and this year all of our 2012-15 C2s came in and we screwed the pan into the frames.

Formally ICBUS0730

Edited by - ICBUS07-30 on 08/29/2016 3:40:29 PM
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  04:08:53 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ICBUS07-30

Two years ago we welded all of our ICs 04-09 and this year all of our 2012-15 C2s came in and we screwed the pan into the frames.



We thought about doing that but didn't want to take on the liability that goes with it.
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  06:13:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm not sure about welding on seat frames. I don't think you are suppose to.

US Army retired CMBT
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  06:30:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
lol, I was just now telling a driver that drives one of my ICs that they are a 5 year bus. They are made to get through the 5 year lease. We weren't even talking about the seats. I have had the same problem though. I was welding them and then IC came in and screwed them in place (like slippert was talking about). I've not had them apart to look at the screwed together ones. If I ever had this happen to a BB I knew the kids were getting rowdy. Now, with IC, I don't think that's the case.

Bryan
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Midwest
Active Member

USA
25 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  07:41:16 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
IC has a published seat back repair procedure that requires drilling and the installation of screws.
There is a repair procedure which can be found in TSI letter : 13-47-01

If you have IC Service Portal access it can be found here :
https://evalue.internationaldelivers.com/service/SVCDOCS/Navistar/tsipdf/134701.pdf

Or contact your local IC dealer for details on this repair .

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ICBUS07-30
Senior Member

USA
59 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  1:42:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

We thought about doing that but didn't want to take on the liability that goes with it.

quote:
Originally posted by RonF

I'm not sure about welding on seat frames. I don't think you are suppose to.


Our police inspector would not let us use screws because the head would stick thru the foam. He has since quit and we have learned that we can use screws.

Formally ICBUS0730

Edited by - ICBUS07-30 on 08/30/2016 3:10:50 PM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  2:10:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd love to see a crash test comparing new seat frames with the old screwed ones.

Bryan
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57fan
Senior Member

United States
148 Posts

Posted - 08/30/2016 :  10:20:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have had many seat frames crack at welds and down the middle of the backs. As we all know its caused by the riders in the bus and seat design / MFG. It dont matter what brand bus or seat, we have seen them all cracked. With our 2005 IC buses we just remove the old metal back, clean up the welds and weld in a new back panel. This is what we were told was the procedure from IC. Now I am not going to worry about any liability due to the fact the original backs were welded in-place. As for drilling and screwing the backs in that seems to be more of a liability than welding. Seat backs are meant to give during an impact.

A couple of summers ago the good folks from Thomas bus came out to add additional rivets to our seat backs per a recall / seat mfg warranty. They used aluminum rivets instead of steel rivets as per the TSB. They were forced to come back out and replace all the rivets they installed. So seen this with all different brands of buses and seat frames.

Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  04:17:28 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Blue Bird overall has disappointed me in the last 3 years or so BUT they do make a darn good seat frame. I yanked apart one of my year and half old IC's and they have the upgraded backs. Hopefully they do better then the ones pictured above.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  05:07:41 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm curious as @slippert is on how the latest version of seat back frames will hold up. I just ordered a few from the part number provided. I understand that the seats are supposed to give on impact but they're giving under normal use LOL... And what about the cushions on how cheap made they are. Top part of the cushion collapses too easy from kid leaning on them, we replace them when you can feel the bar from the seat frame.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  05:27:44 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do yourself a favor and don't buy Lichter/Foam Rubber Products foam...buy Triad brand and be done with it.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  05:42:40 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We use FRP (Foam Rubber Product). That's good to know about Triad, I'm gonna ask my bus guy if he can get that brand of foam. Thanks for the info @Thomasbus24!
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  06:25:11 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It costs more, but generally speaking it's one and done so you end up ahead.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 08/31/2016 :  2:26:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Thomasbus24

It costs more, but generally speaking it's one and done so you end up ahead.



This quote could fit into many things that we do in the bus business. All the way from the purchase of a bus to buying a bolt.

Bryan
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2016 :  11:21:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
True statement. "Do it the way the factory should have, and be done with it!"
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2016 :  12:43:00 PM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
@Thomasbus24 you should put "One and done" as your signature LOL. I vote YES do it.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 09/01/2016 :  1:58:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I do have one 2011 IC that has that design seat, I have welded or replaced the backs on most of the seats in that one. Mine however, have only broken out the welds on the side tubes. First sign of trouble is a visible gap between the back of the seat cushion and the seat back.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Bus Tech1
Senior Member

76 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2016 :  12:31:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I used the screw repair from the bulletin but when I had some back apart I noticed some of the screws had broken and some loosened up. I now re weld them if they are not too broken up.
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  04:07:26 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bus Tech1

I used the screw repair from the bulletin but when I had some back apart I noticed some of the screws had broken and some loosened up. I now re weld them if they are not too broken up.



What a joke that bulletin is, why can't they just make them right the first time.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  05:14:51 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One thing I would like to know, from everyone here, is would accept this problem on your personal vehicle? If I had a seat start breaking apart on a 5 year old vehicle, I think I'd be pretty upset about it. I run very old and very high mileage personal vehicles and I don't see this kind of breakup until they get at least 15 years on them and a couple hundred thousand miles. Anyone?

Bryan
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  05:23:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Same here, I keep my personal vehicles for at least 10-12 years. I still drive a 96 Chevy pick up, and just last year the seat lever that adjust the back just broke and its plastic. I can still adjust it using pliers LOL... But seriously we still run buses older than 5 years old and never had problems with seat frames like these.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  10:58:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
So, these seat frames are made to take the impact of a child from the rear in the engineering for compartmentalization. I'm wondering if there has been an engineer examine how the screws will react in a crash?

Bryan
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  11:15:54 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Just spoke with the IC bus sales guy and asked him why they were having trouble with the seat frames breaking that way. His response was that IC researched it and came to the conclusion that the kids placing their knees against the back of the seats are the cause of the failure, not the design. And since then have redesigned them. If its not the design failing then why redesign? Right?
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slippert
Top Member

USA
630 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  11:58:49 AM  Show Profile  Click to see slippert's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Kids have been putting their knees against seat backs since I was riding buses and I am sure before, which was a long time ago... I heard same/similar from my sales too... I just chuckled when I heard it.. I agree if it wasn't a problem why change it!!
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Just spoke with the IC bus sales guy and asked him why they were having trouble with the seat frames breaking that way. His response was that IC researched it and came to the conclusion that the kids placing their knees against the back of the seats are the cause of the failure, not the design. And since then have redesigned them. If its not the design failing then why redesign? Right?


Edited by - slippert on 09/06/2016 11:59:36 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  1:26:52 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It would seem to be pretty hard for kids to get their knees against the backs on the last row of seats.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  2:13:19 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1

Just spoke with the IC bus sales guy and asked him why they were having trouble with the seat frames breaking that way. His response was that IC researched it and came to the conclusion that the kids placing their knees against the back of the seats are the cause of the failure, not the design. And since then have redesigned them. If its not the design failing then why redesign? Right?



LOL!! Well duh. Frustrating! I tell you what gets me cranked up. When the problem hasn't always existed but they are acting like it's something that has and can't be fixed. I guess they did do a redesign though so that's a good thing!

Bryan
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  3:19:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
im not a professional welder, but it looks to me like the only weld that held was on the right side in that 3rd pic. maybe a quality control issue? i assume that these welds are performed by machines and not humans. in any case, looks like 57fan has got the right idea. cut em out and re-weld them yourself. cuz we all know if you want something done right...


-Ken-
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Mountain Dew
New Member

4 Posts

Posted - 09/06/2016 :  5:18:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Mountain Dew's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I had a problem with these breaking, my first idea was that when the seats get cold the big tin piece would contract, breaking the tin at the welds. Coupled with passengers being hard on them. (-30f is not uncommon here)
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RonF
Top Member

867 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2016 :  03:22:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mountain Dew

I had a problem with these breaking, my first idea was that when the seats get cold the big tin piece would contract, breaking the tin at the welds. Coupled with passengers being hard on them. (-30f is not uncommon here)




That may be with the temperature changes, however here in southereast Georgia, we have the same issue with the seat backs and we may get below freezing once or twice a year. I'm going with a poorly and cheaply built bus.

US Army retired CMBT
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

498 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2016 :  04:14:35 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I'm with @krmvcs and @RonF I think its a combination of both quality control and just using the cheapest material they can find. I'm as curious as @bwest about a crash test result. If the sheet metal can't handle kids knees, I'd hate to see a full body impact.
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Thomasbus24
Administrator

USA
4544 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2016 :  04:53:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Do they (IC) even design/engineer or make them in-house anymore? I was thinking Safeguard makes them or would that just be the special backs with restraints or belts? I know my newest handi bus with some built in's came with a registration card to Safeguard for each special back.

Thomas is Syntech, I can't recall who Lion uses. Blue Bird is still in-house.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 09/07/2016 :  04:55:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The opinion I heard multiple times was there was too much "heat" used welding thin metal to thick metal resulting in the thin metal becoming brittle.


Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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