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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/23/2015 :  1:11:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This was filmed a couple months ago. I thought FS did a good job of editing.
Hope you enjoy it.

http://www.fssystem.com/Propane/Propane%20News/Pages/North-Clay-School-District-Use-FS-Propane-to-fuel-school-buses.aspx

eshover
Senior Member

146 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  07:23:02 AM  Show Profile  Visit eshover's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Very nice video. We are getting along well with our BB propane at 40,000 miles.
Have you had a chance to drive the new gas BB vision (Ford V-10)? We test drove the demonstrator recently. It is a nice running bus and has plenty of power.
Ed
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  10:26:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
No, I've heard that Bird had one in the works. What do you think is the advantage of a gasoline burning engine over, say, a propane? The cost per mile is going to be more, wouldn't you think?

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  11:46:48 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

No, I've heard that Bird had one in the works. What do you think is the advantage of a gasoline burning engine over, say, a propane? The cost per mile is going to be more, wouldn't you think?



Lower initial cost?
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  12:15:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
lol, I wish! No, they are in the 7,500 over diesel range. Right now I'm running about even on cost per mile on diesel vs LP. LP would have a slight advantage though, I guess, because the oil change costs are anywhere from twice to three times as much for a diesel. I have trouble understanding why the initial cost is more. If you look at what they add to a diesel, it would make sense that a propane would be less or at least the same. I'm thinking they are wanting to recover some R&D cost. With the other two companies getting into the market, I'm thinking we will see a price war of sorts in the next few years. Propane will take over if this happens. I talked to BB trying to get them to blow the price out, several years ago, so they could get a lock on the market but they laughed at me. lol, guess they figured if I knew anything I'd be in their business. Funny.

Bryan
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/28/2015 :  12:59:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I expect a gasoline engine to be cheaper than both propane and diesel.
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dwight
Senior Member

USA
58 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  01:59:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Comparing the 18 years that I bought gasoline engine school buses and 18 years that I bought diesel engine school buses I can honestly say the diesels made the operation much more complicated and worrisome. Fuel injected liquid propane school buses make me smile but my retirement age came before they became available.
Dwight

20 SCHOOL BUS FLEET OWNER/OPERATOR (Retired)
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  05:06:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by dwight

Comparing the 18 years that I bought gasoline engine school buses and 18 years that I bought diesel engine school buses I can honestly say the diesels made the operation much more complicated and worrisome. Fuel injected liquid propane school buses make me smile but my retirement age came before they became available.
Dwight



Propane is a lot less "worrisome". They are not without their little idiosyncrasies though. The oldest one I have fuels a lot slower than the newer ones (about half rate). I had one of the new ones over fuel on me. Turned out to be a problem with the overfill protection device. It was under warranty and there was no danger at any time. These are little problems compared to some of the things I've seen and have even been reading on here lately.

Bryan
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eshover
Senior Member

146 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  07:16:47 AM  Show Profile  Visit eshover's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The cost per mile is more for gas but can be filled anywhere rather than at a special propane fill station. also we are paying somewhere around .75 - .80 cents per gallon for propane. I don't know what student capacity will be in the new gas. This one was in a Vision.
Have you checked your exhaust manifold bolts lately on your propane? I have one broken off stud on mine.
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  08:18:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My question is cost for three otherwise identical buses.
1.Propane=
2.Gasoline=
3.Diesel=
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  09:34:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
eshover, I have not looked at the manifold bolts. I am planning to get my oldest v10 in here this afternoon so I'll look it over.
second, I cannot tell you those numbers with any accuracy. We didn't have a diesel on our bid specs this time. And I don't have a clue on the gasser.

Bryan
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flint1
Senior Member

Canada
74 Posts

Posted - 12/29/2015 :  10:09:41 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Exhaust manifold bolt breakage on Ford engines is extremely common in other applications. My opinion of the Ford v10 is they are fine when new. And a throwaway once experienced. Common issues are exhaust manifold stud snapping, cam phaser issues, oil consumption due to worn cyl, tensioner pulley brgs that fail and wipe out the front cover, and waterpump shaft failure. As bad as some of the diesels have been (I own 4 IC's, all with dt466 and a maxxdt), I'm not convinced the Ford v10 is a magic bullet, especially when it costs more.
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madtom
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  04:54:12 AM  Show Profile  Visit madtom's Homepage  Reply with Quote
do you have to change your heating system in your shop we have open flame heaters I heard we might have to change them
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madtom
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  04:58:16 AM  Show Profile  Visit madtom's Homepage  Reply with Quote
WHATS THE COST OF THE ON SITE FUELING TANKS, TRAINING MECHANIC AND DRIVERS AND SOFTWARE FOR THESE PROPANE BUS
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  05:50:56 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am no expert but I have been researching and doing this for a while so I will attempt to answer some questions for you guys.

There is no change to your shop, that was one of the things I looked into. The recommendation is to take the same precautions you would with a gasoline powered engine. Propane is heavy, like gasoline, and goes to the ground and flows much like water would. Natural gas, however, is light and rises and will mix with air at the ceiling level and a flame heater is a problem and changes in your shop are required. As a precaution, I only work on my fuel system outside. I'm not really sure why I don't do the same thing with my gasoline equipment (pickup truck, tractor, etc). I guess it's just the years and years of their use that makes us complacent.

I cannot answer the question of fuel station exactly because my fuel supplier has provided ours with the price of the fuel. The only thing we provided was a place to put it, traffic blockers (we used mafia blocks but you can use posts in concrete), and power. I have heard the price of each unit, that will fuel one bus at a time, is in the 25k to 30k range. The training I have received has been self taught and some from my dealer. The fuel system is simple and that is the only thing that is different from the gasoline engine. So, if you know how to work on the gas engine and related parts you're good. Drivers only have to be trained how to fuel, start, and a little change to their application of the throttle. The fueling training is done by my fuel supplier and they get a certificate that I keep on the wall here. The software on Blue Bird/ Ford engines are OE Ford. Any Ford dealer can diagnose a problem with the equipment they already have.

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  05:56:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'd also like to add; when there's a problem with anything in the tank (pump, filter, and related parts) I have a company that works on it for me. They have the equipment to drain the tank and do the work. I could do it, it's not hard, but I have a small fleet and can't justify purchasing the equipment to do something that will happen seldom. Also, the process involves burning some propane vapor that is left after you pump the liquid and my shop backs right up to a subdivision. Needless to say, I don't think a big flame and the noise it produces would go over well. lol

Bryan
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madtom
New Member

3 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  08:07:46 AM  Show Profile  Visit madtom's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The problem I have there's no blue bird or ford dealer in my area that would work on buses and we do every thing in house ,we had a dealer come by but he had no idea about the mechanical part like fuel freeze up we had some fork lifts that would not start in the cold . I had one where the head cracked because of propane left in the cylinder what did they do differently I have about 80 buses all the same but different years for me to make that commitment it doesn't sound like it would be cost effective .I have all software for my units and I don't have to take to the dealer for a simple engine light
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  09:09:21 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Nice video.

"what did they do differently"

The major difference between todays propane engines and 30 years ago is that in the old days the LP was vaporized and flowed in under its own pressure through a carburetor. Todays LP units have a fuel pump in the tank and the fuel is injected in liquid form and vaporizes in the intake manifold.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  11:37:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
^^ Yep! It's an altogether different set up. No freeze up, warms up quick, & you don't plug them in. Although, you can't delete the block heater on a propane option on a BB. I can't figure that one out. lol Little things like this and the price difference is the reason I welcome the other two companies getting in.

Bryan
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got a min
Active Member

31 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  1:29:05 PM  Show Profile  Visit got a min's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We drove a BB, what a hunk of crap. You better have deep pockets after one of your drivers abuses it....how is that engine going to hold up with a over heat issue??? And I don't think an engine shut off system will be good on the school bus. We got away from gasoline in the 70s because of the price and how explosive it was... Here we are in 2015 going backwards.....
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  1:42:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"how is that engine going to hold up with a over heat issue???"-- Not sure what the issue is. I've got my oldest V10 with about 40k on it with no trouble like that.

"And I don't think an engine shut off system will be good on the school bus"-- I'm sure what you are referring to here. None of mine have a "engine shut off" except the one that the driver controls on the steering column.

"We got away from gasoline in the 70s because of the price and how explosive it was... Here we are in 2015 going backwards....." -- The flammability window is smaller for propane than gasoline. That is a scientific fact, nothing more, nothing less.

As for your first statement, everyone has an opinion. My opinion is that BB is the best built school bus out there. That is 22 years of experience with them talking. Now, are the other companies better than the competition used to be? You bet they are! Have they surpassed? IMO, no they haven't.
That being said, I am very happy the other two companies have gotten into propane. I would not be above purchasing one from them. They are going to have to take me to someone who has run them before so I can see first hand the good, the bad and the ugly though.

Bryan
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got a min
Active Member

31 Posts

Posted - 12/30/2015 :  1:58:17 PM  Show Profile  Visit got a min's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for your opinion Brian, we all have a lot of experience on this forum... We run our buses for approximately 17 years do you really think that small gas gngine is going to hold up to the abuse ???
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2015 :  07:55:54 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Could'nt help but notice the FS delivery truck is a Kenworth diesel.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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second.flood
Top Member

USA
640 Posts

Posted - 12/31/2015 :  3:11:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Gas $76,350
Diesel $78,600
Propane $85,125
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/04/2016 :  05:20:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by got a min

Thanks for your opinion Brian, we all have a lot of experience on this forum... We run our buses for approximately 17 years do you really think that small gas gngine is going to hold up to the abuse ???



Yes, I do think it will hold up. The engines I have now aren't going past 150k. So, I think they'll go that far anyway. The other thing I've been thinking is if we do have to OH, what is the cost? Diesels are so expensive to rebuild. These gas engines on the other hand aren't that bad.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  07:59:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
How did you come up with the $2500 in DEF costs as listed in video?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  11:36:53 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
That number was from FS. I think she just used an off the shelf cost for the fluid and the number of miles that you can get per gallon of DEF. Does it look high for 200k miles?

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:02:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
OK, I looked up a general use and they are saying 3% of the gallons of fuel that you use. So, if your diesel gets 8mpg then you would use 750 gallons of DEF over 200k miles. Napa, across the street here, says they have a sale on DEF for about $10 per 2.5 gallons but it's not always on sale. So, regular price is about 4.80 a gallon. So, with those numbers it looks like about $3,600. Looks like she was a little low.

Bryan
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:05:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
also keeping in mind that the rate of use will depend greatly on engine load/driver habits. if youve got a driver with a heavy foot, youre gonna be filling that tank more often.

-Ken-
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:23:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

That number was from FS. I think she just used an off the shelf cost for the fluid and the number of miles that you can get per gallon of DEF. Does it look high for 200k miles?



I believe we could go 200k miles on 25,000 gallons of diesel fuel, figuring 2.5 gallon DEF per 100 gallon of fuel = 625 gallon DEF. $2500 would work out to $4.00 per gallon for DEF. Current price we pay for DEF in a 55 gallon drum is $1.42 or under $900 for 625 gallons.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Ryan5r
Senior Member

USA
55 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:37:55 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I believe we could go 200k miles on 25,000 gallons of diesel fuel, figuring 2.5 gallon DEF per 100 gallon of fuel = 625 gallon DEF. $2500 would work out to $4.00 per gallon for DEF. Current price we pay for DEF in a 55 gallon drum is $1.42 or under $900 for 625 gallons.
[/quote]

Where do you find DEF for $1.42 a gallon?
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  12:50:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ryan5r

I believe we could go 200k miles on 25,000 gallons of diesel fuel, figuring 2.5 gallon DEF per 100 gallon of fuel = 625 gallon DEF. $2500 would work out to $4.00 per gallon for DEF. Current price we pay for DEF in a 55 gallon drum is $1.42 or under $900 for 625 gallons.



Where do you find DEF for $1.42 a gallon?
[/quote]

Thats just what our local oil jobber sells it for by the 55 gallon drum. They can't be the only ones.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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krmvcs
Advanced Member

362 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  1:55:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
alright everyone. we gotta go find where ryan lives, buy all the DEF we can, and sell it everywhere else. we could make a fortune!
I pay about $4 per gallon. but i live in california and we're used to everything being more expensive than just about anywhere else save hawaii. I also only have 5 units that need it so im still going with the 55gal drum. i use less than 3 drums a year.

-Ken-
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bwest
Administrator

United States
3820 Posts

Posted - 01/06/2016 :  2:24:41 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
This is, admittedly, one area I know nothing about. When the units first came out that took DEF I swore off them then and there. I ended up with two used units and two IC buses (that didn't take it at the time) before going propane.

Bryan
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RBrian
Senior Member

United States
71 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2016 :  03:54:59 AM  Show Profile  Visit RBrian's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We buy 300 gallon totes for $564. Thats $1.88 a gallon. We used 2,800 gallons last year.
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Fastback
Top Member

1500 Posts

Posted - 01/07/2016 :  04:18:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RBrian

We buy 300 gallon totes for $564. Thats $1.88 a gallon. We used 2,800 gallons last year.



I thought the totes were 330 gallons.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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