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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
 Posted - 01/21/2015 : 10:14:24 PM
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| Trying to find the IDM relay . I found relays but nothing to tell me which is which . A picture of the location would be fantastic ! Thanks |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2015 : 4:42:33 PM
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On 05 IC FE buses the IDM, ECM and Start relays are located behind the drivers side wiper motor access door. They are not marked which is which. We have found burnt connections in the relay connector, broken wire inside the insulation and rarely a bad relay. If I remember correctly.
Always check the fuse and connections in the battery box as well as electrical connections near the starter. The ECM powers up when the key is on and it supplies voltage to the IDM relay which gets its latching signal from the IDM Module. There is a wire harness over the top of the engine that has a 10A fuse sticking out. this is the IDM (Power Logic) circuit. If that fuse is burnt / blown then the IDM is usually bad. |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/22/2015 : 9:35:52 PM
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| I have heard that about that location . I opened it up and nothing was there . Are they behind something else . There a bunch of relays on the fuse panel above the flasher . Then there is one on the top of the fuse panel upper right corner . |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2015 : 04:30:31 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by valleybusman
I have heard that about that location . I opened it up and nothing was there . Are they behind something else . There a bunch of relays on the fuse panel above the flasher . Then there is one on the top of the fuse panel upper right corner .
When you open the drivers side wiper motor access door, do you see a rather thick wiring harness? Are there any relays zip tied to this harness? See any relays connected with 10 guage wires with circuit number 97 stenciled on them? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
Edited by - Fastback on 01/23/2015 04:32:16 AM |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2015 : 12:06:01 PM
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Fastback
I found them right where you said they are .None of the wiring looks bad .What am I looking for there ? Thanks you have been a great help |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2015 : 12:16:25 PM
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| Pull out the relay and look at the female sockets in the connector and around the connector. If the sockets have turned black or the connector hole where the socket plugs in is distoreded, replace the relay and the relay connector. You can buy the connector and relay from NAPA. I just did one on a CE 200 last month. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/23/2015 : 12:24:14 PM
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You might also try bfaulkner's suggestion from the other thread;
"A quick way to check for power and circuit integrity for the IDM is to removed the Relay under the hood. take an older headlight bulb or overhead bulb. on of the big ones. attach leads to it and use it in the IDM circuit. connect it across the larger 2 wires for the relay. with the key on it should light up. if it doesn't then its either no power or the circuit cant handle the load so its damaged." |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2015 : 10:59:34 AM
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| I pulled all the relays on the bus that won't start .Installed in a sister bus and they worked.Bus started up . I tested power at the relays in the bus that wouldn't start . Showed 12.7 volts .Thanks |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2015 : 12:01:46 PM
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| Okay I just went out and checked after reinstalling the relays .I cleared the codes . All disappeared but I have a 241 and a 543 . Could all my problems be tied to a IPR sensor ? Hope someone can help . Thanks |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2015 : 1:27:35 PM
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| 543 is still an IDM power concern......CAN2 circuit open, short to ground or power. Did you ever check that fuse on top of engine? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/26/2015 : 1:41:29 PM
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| Fastback I found the fuse and it is good . There is also another relay. I suspect that is for the alternator . I pulled the batteries and going to them tested .Still turns over really slow . |
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DougBier
Senior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 01/29/2015 : 9:40:44 PM
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| What did you ever find wrong ? I have been curious ? Did you get it going ? |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2015 : 08:01:23 AM
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| No I haven't . One problem I was having starter was turning engine over to slowly . So I have a starter on order and maybe that will cure a lot of my problems . This last time my 525 codes went away . I cleaned all the positive connections and ground connections . Tested batteries and they tested good . So I am hoping . |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2015 : 8:33:01 PM
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| Be sure to check all your battery connections, cables to both the starter and ground. Be sure to check for bad / loose / dirty connection on all connectors around the Starter motor. If my memory is correct there is a connector near the starter for the ECM power circuit. (International recommends removing this connector and butt splicing them). If the ECM is getting power and the IDM is not you should get a DTC 523 -IDM V IGN voltage low code (in other words low to no voltage). We have had DTC 525 and found a bad IDM (very rare). We have had IDM's just up and fail with no warning. If its an IDM issue you can change the driver side of the IDM for under $200.00 and no programing is needed. You should hear the Turbo Actuator (SRA) cycle the turbo when you turn on the key as well as the turbo "Bounce" when the key is turned off. If you do not hear this then you definitely have a ECM power issue. The starter should crank around 350 RPM for the engine to start.. If you have servicemaxx software this would help you out tremendously. As for starter issues, with 23 engine we have only had 1 starter failure and that was due to a bad ring gear. Some buses are over 180K miles still work great. It sounds like you are on the right trail. hope ya get it fixed soon... |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2015 : 8:45:46 PM
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| 57 fan here where I am at with this . I did get a 523 and a 525 code .I thought batteries . So I checked cables for corrosion . I pulled all the fuses at the battery . Connections and fuses looked good . Sent batteries with my parts guy and they have the capacity to turn engine over . I checked the relays they all had 12.5 volts . Changed them out with a running bus . I checked the connections at the starter . Tight and clean My service maxx after doing all this says ECM is not receiving from the IDM . I also know when I turn the key on I hear nothing going thru any checks . So any ideas ? I am wondering if maybe I should just replace the IDM ? Would it be easier without the starter in ? Thanks |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 01/30/2015 : 10:08:29 PM
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Im sure it would be easier with the starter out but thats allot of work and a heavy starter (there is a bold between the block and starter thats a bugger to get to. I've never tried it. You can swap out the IDM in about 3-4 hours. I am assuming that you have Servicemaxx and that you cannot run KOEO injector test (often known as buzz testing). The ECM tells the IDM to test (cycle) the injectors. If it cannot do this then its a IDM or communication failure. Before you take out the ECM/IDM, get a wiring diagram for the engine (not the bus) and check all the wiring with a DVOM. Make sure you did not have a broken wire especially a comm (twisted pair). If the wires all test good thats one less concern. I have found fuses that look good and are actually bad. Just replace them they are cheap. I have also found broken wires inside the insulation near the ECM and IDM relays and you could not tell by looking at them. This is especially true on the IDM logic fuse that is located above the valve cover. Make sure you have power going to the IDM at the connector to the IDM.
After testing all your engine wires be sure to test the signal circuits to the IDM relay to verify it is powering up correctly.
keep us informed.. |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2015 : 11:48:24 AM
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| Okay got starter in today . Turns over a lot faster . Now I checked all relays and fuses in battery box .I went to check fuses above valve cover . No power at all with key on.Is this my problem and if so where should I go to check ? |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2015 : 12:34:25 PM
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| That would be a problem. I believe they get their feed off the battery. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 02/04/2015 : 10:24:07 PM
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Valleyusman, The fuse above the valve cover is IDM logic power (I have no idea what it does) and if there is no voltage the IDM will not power up. If the fuse is blown the it would be a wiring issue from the fuse to the IDM or the IDM it self. The fuse gets its power off the IDM relay output (pin 87). Somewhere between the IDM relay and the fuse the wire off pin 87 will splice into 2 circuits. One is the IDM main power circuit and the other is the IDM logic power. You should check to see that there is power to the IDM at the 12 pin connector (black connector near the dip stick). It would be pin 12 and the IDM logic power would be pin 6. If you have no power to either of them then its a wiring issue. I have see the wires break near the relays and not even brake the wires insulation.
If you google, 04 DT466 wiring diagram you will find an image of the engine wiring diagram (this is not the bus side but it will show you how and where power comes from. We have had wires cut in half by the poly loom and zip ties. Even had wires corroded by small rocks inside the looms. There might be a fuse in the loom above the cooling fan if you have a Allison 3060 with the push button shift pad. This is the power to the shift pad and if it does not power up and light up the bus will not start. I believe the wire you are looking for will be a 10 or 12 gauge pink wire and it splices about 8" (give or take) from the relay heading towards the engine.. Hope this helps..
http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/HE/HeavyEquipmentTech/2013-03-28_165318_international_dt466e_wiring_schematic.gif |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/05/2015 : 3:04:07 PM
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| Okay I went out and tested the fuse on the valve cover . No power . I took the fuse in the same location as a sister bus and tried to start bus without it . No start . So I ran a jumper wire to the IDM side of the circuit to get power .Bus trys to start now which it never did before . Now the codes have changed also . I have a 368 , 155 and a 534 . What does all this mean now . Bus now acts like it's starving for fuel . Thanks |
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57fan
Senior Member
United States
148 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2015 : 12:04:45 AM
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| so now you have verified you have a power problem to the IDM. you need to correct this first. it sounds like an issue in the wire from the idm replay to the fuse / idm. as for the codes, 155 is IAT (intake air Temp) signal out of range. This is located in the air tube from the filter to the turbo. It is located near the alternator area of the engine. its either unplugged or a wiring issue. Code 368 is AMS EGR driver module/ECM2 communication fault. More than likely a wiring issue. Make sure the 12 pin connector is plugged in. and 534 is IDM low voltage. Not to much of a concern. fix your power issue to the IDM 10 logic power issue first. Clear all codes and go from there.. |
Lead, Follow or get out of the way! Thomas Paine |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2015 : 07:54:16 AM
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| So what you are saying is go to IDM and unplug it and check for voltage . Fix why there is no voltage coming off the relay .I am sorry I am little slow at working on the newer equipment .Thanks 57 fan . I will try that . Also the bus is some ways from the shop on the lot . Is there anyway to limp the bus to the shop ? Thanks |
Edited by - valleybusman on 02/08/2015 10:07:05 AM |
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RonF
Top Member
867 Posts |
Posted - 02/06/2015 : 09:22:06 AM
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| Either fill the air tanks with air and release the parking brake and drag it in with a truck or another bus or cage the brakes and drag it in. |
US Army retired CMBT |
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DougBier
Senior Member
78 Posts |
Posted - 02/08/2015 : 10:04:58 AM
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| I think if you disconnect he ICP the engine will start and idle . Someone can correct me if I am wrong . I too would rather move a bus running than drag it in if at all possible . Hope that helps |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2015 : 07:57:40 AM
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| I have been spending a lot of time under this bus this week . I have some questions as well as some ideas . I feel like I have beaten this subject to death here . I just hope I can still get some help from people regarding this . I checked my grid heater it's dead . The light comes on but no power to the grid . Okay being under there I am looking at the starter . Battery ground goes to front of starter nose . There is a ground wire that goes to the center of the block . where a couple good size white wires meet .I am thinking that the grounds aren't enough . One thing there is corrosion there . I am trying to clean that up .But even with that is that enough ground to run everything ? I hope someone will read this and chime in please . |
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Fastback
Top Member
1500 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2015 : 12:29:22 PM
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| Does engine block have another ground wire to the frame anywhere? Is there another ground cable from batteries to the frame or just the one to starter ground stud? Outside of those suggestions do you have any other buses with DTs you can compare it too? |
Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback |
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valleybusman
Top Member
USA
800 Posts |
Posted - 02/12/2015 : 2:06:56 PM
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| I just got back from under bus . Yes there is a ground wire from the starter to the frame .I tightened that . I took the ground wires off a terminal above the starter . and They looked hammered .I replaced the ends and cleaned the area .Hooked my laptop up and cleared my codes .Tried to start no start .Checked for codes and only a 222 and a 145 .So my IDM and ECM seem to be good .Am I right what is next .Cam sensor is new |
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05 IC FE 300
