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 Maxxforce DT with extended or no start
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2014 :  10:08:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2008 IC CE300 with Maxxforce DT466 with 95k on the clock. Morning route bus starts as it should. Afternoon route bus starts as it should. I noticed problem after bus was parked for fuel after a route. I fueled it up shortly after route and it took a loooong cranking cycle to start it.

I'll check the oil level and see if it might be thinned by excess fuel this pm.

My thinking is low injector oil pressure at hot start but have no "puter" to verify. Where is this pressure tested with a gauge on this engine.

I have two new IC's on order with a summer arrival date so I guess I better bite the bullet and order a "puter" and software.

Many thanks in advance

aaronwilmoth80911
Senior Member

138 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2014 :  12:36:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We had one of our 2010 MaxxForce 466 engines do that same thing. It ended up being the "pucks" for the injectors. Fortunately for us, it was still under warranty, so the dealer took care of it. Another mechanic from another district says that they do the injector pucks at 80k regardless of if it needs it right then or not.

We also have another one that has an extended crank issue and is still under warranty, but they can never find anything wrong. They have the replaced the IPR valve twice, the ICP sensor, and the high pressure oil line. The last time it was in (last week) they replaced the exhaust brake sensor claiming that it had excessive leaking, but that does not seem to have solved the problem either.

Hope this will help you some.
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
838 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2014 :  2:19:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Follow the steps indicated either in the "Hard Start No Start" or "Performance" diagnostic charts. These charts will eliminate good components and leave you with the problem remaining. If no codes are present perform an "air management test". This may point to problems not seen previously and log a new active code.
Conditions to start include: good battery voltage at the ecm and starter, engine rpm a minimum of 130 rpm although I like to see 150, engine oil pressure, oil supply to the high pressure oil pump, ICP during cranking above 650 although spec is higher. If the egr valve is sticking open slightly hard start will occur but the engine will also have low power. The air management test often finds this problem. Fuel pressure must be to spec for the year of engine you have. It can be measured at the test port on the intake manifold on epa 2007 through current design. Info is available at On Command service portal or by logging into www.evalue.internationaldelivers,com/service

Brad A. Barker
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:06:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

Follow the steps indicated either in the "Hard Start No Start" or "Performance" diagnostic charts. These charts will eliminate good components and leave you with the problem remaining. If no codes are present perform an "air management test". This may point to problems not seen previously and log a new active code.
Conditions to start include: good battery voltage at the ecm and starter, engine rpm a minimum of 130 rpm although I like to see 150, engine oil pressure, oil supply to the high pressure oil pump, ICP during cranking above 650 although spec is higher. If the egr valve is sticking open slightly hard start will occur but the engine will also have low power. The air management test often finds this problem. Fuel pressure must be to spec for the year of engine you have. It can be measured at the test port on the intake manifold on epa 2007 through current design. Info is available at On Command service portal or by logging into www.evalue.internationaldelivers,com/service



Lets revisit this issue. I changed the oil fearing dilution due to diesel in the oil and bus started and ran out fine for a long period. I have ruled out dilution as an issue. Now it is having the hard/no start issue again with fresh oil and filter.

I have some new findings. Bus starts as it should in the cool of the morning. After the route (engine warm) bus will not restart if tried. I noticed during the restart attempt that the engine oil pressure is only building to 10psi. Can anyone tell me how the engine oil lube pump, HOP reservoir and HPOP all work together? Is there a check oR relief valve for the HOP reservoir as the diagnostic sheet says to check to be sure its full??? I feel like I just have a leak somewhere or at the worst a bad HPOP.

Also I have a emission light that is on. Its goes away after the oil change until the no start issue rears it head. What in the oil pressure systems is this thing reading to know to throw a light?

Any help/info is greatly appreciated.

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/22/2014 11:47:31 AM
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RonF
Active Member

19 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:15:34 AM  Show Profile  Visit RonF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Verify with MaxxForce software or a mechanical gauge what your oil pressure is. Also I found a TSI on the International ISIS website for a hard start no start issue stating this could be caused by using NAPA filter 3994, FIL3994 or the wix and car quest versions. The problems with these filters are the are causing a low fuel pressure issue.
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RonF
Active Member

19 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:25:15 AM  Show Profile  Visit RonF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If you engine is a MaxxForce 9, the oil pressure regulator is on top of the oil filter housing.
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  12:41:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What codes do you have?
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  2:53:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

What codes do you have?



I wish I could give you that info but I have yet to dig into what I'll need puter wise for these things. The computer/software/harness end of these things scare me more than any issue the bus could have.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
512 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  03:57:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Change the oil first and see if it magically fixes it.
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mhernandez73
Senior Member

57 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  04:43:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit mhernandez73's Homepage  Reply with Quote
weve had many hard/ exteneded starts been replacing puks. also found several injectors leaking using air test
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  04:44:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bassman

Change the oil first and see if it magically fixes it.



That used to do the trick. I have another one that's starting to act the same as this one with the emission light issue. It doesn't have the extended/no start problem like this bus has though.

I feel the heated oil being thin is the key!!

What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!
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JoeHEB1
Senior Member

101 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  05:33:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote


What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!
[/quote]


Here is what the injector pucks look like, they are located on the high pressure oil manifold.[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/tootsie1980/media/injectorpuck.png.html][/URL]
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  08:49:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are the codes available at the dash?
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RonF
Active Member

19 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  09:18:45 AM  Show Profile  Visit RonF's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Same crappy design as the VT 365/ 6.0 power stroke.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  12:31:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Are the codes available at the dash?




Is that something I can bring up?

Learn me!! I am "grasshopper"!
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  12:34:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1



What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!




Here is what the injector pucks look like, they are located on the high pressure oil manifold.[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/tootsie1980/media/injectorpuck.png.html][/URL]
[/quote]

Thanks for the picture. I am a visual type guy so that helped! Now will leaking "pucks" show up with the air test mentioned above or are they just a "while your in the area" item?

Thanks!!!
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  04:49:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Key on

Depress cruise throttle switches simultaneously, I think it is the bottom of the left switch, top of the right switch.

Have a note pad and jot down any codes.... also note if they are active or inactive.

Report back, grasshopper.



quote:
Originally posted by CISDbusman

quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Are the codes available at the dash?




Is that something I can bring up?

Learn me!! I am "grasshopper"!

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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  04:53:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CISDbusman
Have you purchased an IC bus in the last 12 months?

Also can you post last 8 of vin?

Edited by - second.flood on 10/24/2014 04:56:40 AM
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  09:57:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

CISDbusman
Have you purchased an IC bus in the last 12 months?

Also can you post last 8 of vin?



I received two new IC busses just before the start of the school year. Both have red engines.........

Last 8 of the vin. 9B058697

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/27/2014 08:29:10 AM
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
366 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  10:13:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You should have access to bus ISIS for a year from the new bus purchase, unless Navistar has changed that program.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2014 :  06:40:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I preformed the switch toggle and this is what I got back.

SOFTWARE REV 2.4
HARDWARE REV C
ACTIVE FAULTS 2
TOTAL FAULTS 4

SPN: 164 FMI: 1
Active
OC: 0 SA: 0

SPN: 3251 FMI: 4
Active
OC: 0 SA: 0

SPN: 1213 FMI: 5
Active
OC: NA SA: 23

SPN: 1438 FMI: 5
Previously Active
OC: NA SA: 23



Looks serious!!!

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/27/2014 09:55:58 AM
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mrschoolbus1
Active Member

14 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2014 :  3:58:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit mrschoolbus1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
SA0 = Engine
SPN: 164 FMI: 1 ICP unable to build during engine cranking
SPN: 3251 FMI: 4 EGDP signal out-of-range LOW

SA23 = Gauge Cluster
SPN: 1213 FMI: 5 Malfunction Indicator Lamp Current below normal or open circuit

SPN 164- Low ICP during crank is your starting issue. Could be one of the following . - Bad IPR valve , Bad HP oil pump, Dirt in the HP oil Pump inlet screen, HP oil leak under the valve cover ( pucks or injectors)or oil quality .

International dealers now have a new HPOP system test procedure that uses thee CPA analyzing software. This software walks the technician through 4 steps and tests for all of the above conditions.

You can still manually test the HPOP system if you have a gauge ( 5000 PSI) and IPR block off tool and or ServiceMaxx. Monitor the HP pressure when cranking with gauge Tee in the circuit . or ServiceMaxx . Pressure during crank should get above 350 - 400 PSI .

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CISDbusman
Senior Member

164 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2014 :  08:52:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mrschoolbus1

SA0 = Engine
SPN: 164 FMI: 1 ICP unable to build during engine cranking
SPN: 3251 FMI: 4 EGDP signal out-of-range LOW

SA23 = Gauge Cluster
SPN: 1213 FMI: 5 Malfunction Indicator Lamp Current below normal or open circuit

SPN 164- Low ICP during crank is your starting issue. Could be one of the following . - Bad IPR valve , Bad HP oil pump, Dirt in the HP oil Pump inlet screen, HP oil leak under the valve cover ( pucks or injectors)or oil quality .

International dealers now have a new HPOP system test procedure that uses thee CPA analyzing software. This software walks the technician through 4 steps and tests for all of the above conditions.

You can still manually test the HPOP system if you have a gauge ( 5000 PSI) and IPR block off tool and or ServiceMaxx. Monitor the HP pressure when cranking with gauge Tee in the circuit . or ServiceMaxx . Pressure during crank should get above 350 - 400 PSI .





Thank you kind Sir!!

Now for another question. I have suspected that my issue was related to low ICP pressure once the bus was warm (starts FINE when cold). If I have low ICP pressure while cranking and my engine oil pressure wont build either where might the problem be? I feel a bad/suspect engine oil lube pump is unlikely. How often has anyone replaced their HPOP on a unit with less than 100k on the clock? I feel I need to do the air check first to eliminate a leak (ie: injectors or "pucks") as a cause for the low oil and ICP pressure at temperature. Barking up the wrong tree?

What say ye??
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mrschoolbus1
Active Member

14 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2014 :  5:29:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit mrschoolbus1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If it is only hard start when the engine is hot ( Oil is thin) I would suspect leaking Pucks or Injectors under the valve cover .

Does this have low base engine oil pressure when starting hot ? Usually when the base engine oil pressure ( Lube oil pressure) is low it usually causes issues starting when cold . After sitting overnight the hp pump reservoir will drain back slightly and if there is not enough engine base oil pressure to get oil in the reservoir it may cause hard start .
Manually check your base engine oil pressure with a gauge when cranking . During crank it should get to 10 - 15 PSI within 10 seconds- This is enough to get the engine running
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