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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2014 :  10:08:39 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
2008 IC CE300 with Maxxforce DT466 with 95k on the clock. Morning route bus starts as it should. Afternoon route bus starts as it should. I noticed problem after bus was parked for fuel after a route. I fueled it up shortly after route and it took a loooong cranking cycle to start it.

I'll check the oil level and see if it might be thinned by excess fuel this pm.

My thinking is low injector oil pressure at hot start but have no "puter" to verify. Where is this pressure tested with a gauge on this engine.

I have two new IC's on order with a summer arrival date so I guess I better bite the bullet and order a "puter" and software.

Many thanks in advance

aaronwilmoth80911
Advanced Member

307 Posts

Posted - 04/03/2014 :  12:36:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We had one of our 2010 MaxxForce 466 engines do that same thing. It ended up being the "pucks" for the injectors. Fortunately for us, it was still under warranty, so the dealer took care of it. Another mechanic from another district says that they do the injector pucks at 80k regardless of if it needs it right then or not.

We also have another one that has an extended crank issue and is still under warranty, but they can never find anything wrong. They have the replaced the IPR valve twice, the ICP sensor, and the high pressure oil line. The last time it was in (last week) they replaced the exhaust brake sensor claiming that it had excessive leaking, but that does not seem to have solved the problem either.

Hope this will help you some.
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
839 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2014 :  2:19:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Follow the steps indicated either in the "Hard Start No Start" or "Performance" diagnostic charts. These charts will eliminate good components and leave you with the problem remaining. If no codes are present perform an "air management test". This may point to problems not seen previously and log a new active code.
Conditions to start include: good battery voltage at the ecm and starter, engine rpm a minimum of 130 rpm although I like to see 150, engine oil pressure, oil supply to the high pressure oil pump, ICP during cranking above 650 although spec is higher. If the egr valve is sticking open slightly hard start will occur but the engine will also have low power. The air management test often finds this problem. Fuel pressure must be to spec for the year of engine you have. It can be measured at the test port on the intake manifold on epa 2007 through current design. Info is available at On Command service portal or by logging into www.evalue.internationaldelivers,com/service

Brad A. Barker
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:06:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Brad Barker

Follow the steps indicated either in the "Hard Start No Start" or "Performance" diagnostic charts. These charts will eliminate good components and leave you with the problem remaining. If no codes are present perform an "air management test". This may point to problems not seen previously and log a new active code.
Conditions to start include: good battery voltage at the ecm and starter, engine rpm a minimum of 130 rpm although I like to see 150, engine oil pressure, oil supply to the high pressure oil pump, ICP during cranking above 650 although spec is higher. If the egr valve is sticking open slightly hard start will occur but the engine will also have low power. The air management test often finds this problem. Fuel pressure must be to spec for the year of engine you have. It can be measured at the test port on the intake manifold on epa 2007 through current design. Info is available at On Command service portal or by logging into www.evalue.internationaldelivers,com/service



Lets revisit this issue. I changed the oil fearing dilution due to diesel in the oil and bus started and ran out fine for a long period. I have ruled out dilution as an issue. Now it is having the hard/no start issue again with fresh oil and filter.

I have some new findings. Bus starts as it should in the cool of the morning. After the route (engine warm) bus will not restart if tried. I noticed during the restart attempt that the engine oil pressure is only building to 10psi. Can anyone tell me how the engine oil lube pump, HOP reservoir and HPOP all work together? Is there a check oR relief valve for the HOP reservoir as the diagnostic sheet says to check to be sure its full??? I feel like I just have a leak somewhere or at the worst a bad HPOP.

Also I have a emission light that is on. Its goes away after the oil change until the no start issue rears it head. What in the oil pressure systems is this thing reading to know to throw a light?

Any help/info is greatly appreciated.

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/22/2014 11:47:31 AM
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RonF
Senior Member

152 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:15:34 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Verify with MaxxForce software or a mechanical gauge what your oil pressure is. Also I found a TSI on the International ISIS website for a hard start no start issue stating this could be caused by using NAPA filter 3994, FIL3994 or the wix and car quest versions. The problems with these filters are the are causing a low fuel pressure issue.

US Army retired CMBT
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RonF
Senior Member

152 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  09:25:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you engine is a MaxxForce 9, the oil pressure regulator is on top of the oil filter housing.

US Army retired CMBT
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  12:41:35 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What codes do you have?
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/22/2014 :  2:53:54 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

What codes do you have?



I wish I could give you that info but I have yet to dig into what I'll need puter wise for these things. The computer/software/harness end of these things scare me more than any issue the bus could have.
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
531 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  03:57:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Change the oil first and see if it magically fixes it.
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mhernandez73
Senior Member

101 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  04:43:43 AM  Show Profile  Visit mhernandez73's Homepage  Reply with Quote
weve had many hard/ exteneded starts been replacing puks. also found several injectors leaking using air test
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  04:44:40 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Bassman

Change the oil first and see if it magically fixes it.



That used to do the trick. I have another one that's starting to act the same as this one with the emission light issue. It doesn't have the extended/no start problem like this bus has though.

I feel the heated oil being thin is the key!!

What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!
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JoeHEB1
Advanced Member

211 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  05:33:09 AM  Show Profile  Visit JoeHEB1's Homepage  Reply with Quote


What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!
[/quote]


Here is what the injector pucks look like, they are located on the high pressure oil manifold.[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/tootsie1980/media/injectorpuck.png.html][/URL]
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  08:49:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Are the codes available at the dash?
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RonF
Senior Member

152 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  09:18:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Same crappy design as the VT 365/ 6.0 power stroke.

US Army retired CMBT
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  12:31:43 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Are the codes available at the dash?




Is that something I can bring up?

Learn me!! I am "grasshopper"!
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/23/2014 :  12:34:15 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1



What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!




Here is what the injector pucks look like, they are located on the high pressure oil manifold.[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/tootsie1980/media/injectorpuck.png.html][/URL]
[/quote]

Thanks for the picture. I am a visual type guy so that helped! Now will leaking "pucks" show up with the air test mentioned above or are they just a "while your in the area" item?

Thanks!!!
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  04:49:35 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

Key on

Depress cruise throttle switches simultaneously, I think it is the bottom of the left switch, top of the right switch.

Have a note pad and jot down any codes.... also note if they are active or inactive.

Report back, grasshopper.



quote:
Originally posted by CISDbusman

quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

Are the codes available at the dash?




Is that something I can bring up?

Learn me!! I am "grasshopper"!

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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  04:53:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
CISDbusman
Have you purchased an IC bus in the last 12 months?

Also can you post last 8 of vin?

Edited by - second.flood on 10/24/2014 04:56:40 AM
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  09:57:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by second.flood

CISDbusman
Have you purchased an IC bus in the last 12 months?

Also can you post last 8 of vin?



I received two new IC busses just before the start of the school year. Both have red engines.........

Last 8 of the vin. 9B058697

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/27/2014 08:29:10 AM
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
461 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2014 :  10:13:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You should have access to bus ISIS for a year from the new bus purchase, unless Navistar has changed that program.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2014 :  06:40:19 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I preformed the switch toggle and this is what I got back.

SOFTWARE REV 2.4
HARDWARE REV C
ACTIVE FAULTS 2
TOTAL FAULTS 4

SPN: 164 FMI: 1
Active
OC: 0 SA: 0

SPN: 3251 FMI: 4
Active
OC: 0 SA: 0

SPN: 1213 FMI: 5
Active
OC: NA SA: 23

SPN: 1438 FMI: 5
Previously Active
OC: NA SA: 23



Looks serious!!!

Edited by - CISDbusman on 10/27/2014 09:55:58 AM
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mrschoolbus1
Active Member

15 Posts

Posted - 10/27/2014 :  3:58:34 PM  Show Profile  Visit mrschoolbus1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
SA0 = Engine
SPN: 164 FMI: 1 ICP unable to build during engine cranking
SPN: 3251 FMI: 4 EGDP signal out-of-range LOW

SA23 = Gauge Cluster
SPN: 1213 FMI: 5 Malfunction Indicator Lamp Current below normal or open circuit

SPN 164- Low ICP during crank is your starting issue. Could be one of the following . - Bad IPR valve , Bad HP oil pump, Dirt in the HP oil Pump inlet screen, HP oil leak under the valve cover ( pucks or injectors)or oil quality .

International dealers now have a new HPOP system test procedure that uses thee CPA analyzing software. This software walks the technician through 4 steps and tests for all of the above conditions.

You can still manually test the HPOP system if you have a gauge ( 5000 PSI) and IPR block off tool and or ServiceMaxx. Monitor the HP pressure when cranking with gauge Tee in the circuit . or ServiceMaxx . Pressure during crank should get above 350 - 400 PSI .

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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2014 :  08:52:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mrschoolbus1

SA0 = Engine
SPN: 164 FMI: 1 ICP unable to build during engine cranking
SPN: 3251 FMI: 4 EGDP signal out-of-range LOW

SA23 = Gauge Cluster
SPN: 1213 FMI: 5 Malfunction Indicator Lamp Current below normal or open circuit

SPN 164- Low ICP during crank is your starting issue. Could be one of the following . - Bad IPR valve , Bad HP oil pump, Dirt in the HP oil Pump inlet screen, HP oil leak under the valve cover ( pucks or injectors)or oil quality .

International dealers now have a new HPOP system test procedure that uses thee CPA analyzing software. This software walks the technician through 4 steps and tests for all of the above conditions.

You can still manually test the HPOP system if you have a gauge ( 5000 PSI) and IPR block off tool and or ServiceMaxx. Monitor the HP pressure when cranking with gauge Tee in the circuit . or ServiceMaxx . Pressure during crank should get above 350 - 400 PSI .





Thank you kind Sir!!

Now for another question. I have suspected that my issue was related to low ICP pressure once the bus was warm (starts FINE when cold). If I have low ICP pressure while cranking and my engine oil pressure wont build either where might the problem be? I feel a bad/suspect engine oil lube pump is unlikely. How often has anyone replaced their HPOP on a unit with less than 100k on the clock? I feel I need to do the air check first to eliminate a leak (ie: injectors or "pucks") as a cause for the low oil and ICP pressure at temperature. Barking up the wrong tree?

What say ye??
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mrschoolbus1
Active Member

15 Posts

Posted - 10/28/2014 :  5:29:55 PM  Show Profile  Visit mrschoolbus1's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If it is only hard start when the engine is hot ( Oil is thin) I would suspect leaking Pucks or Injectors under the valve cover .

Does this have low base engine oil pressure when starting hot ? Usually when the base engine oil pressure ( Lube oil pressure) is low it usually causes issues starting when cold . After sitting overnight the hp pump reservoir will drain back slightly and if there is not enough engine base oil pressure to get oil in the reservoir it may cause hard start .
Manually check your base engine oil pressure with a gauge when cranking . During crank it should get to 10 - 15 PSI within 10 seconds- This is enough to get the engine running
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 11/04/2014 :  09:40:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by JoeHEB1



What are the injector "pucks" mentioned above?

Thanks all!!!




Here is what the injector pucks look like, they are located on the high pressure oil manifold.[URL=http://s253.photobucket.com/user/tootsie1980/media/injectorpuck.png.html][/URL]
[/quote]

Having never had the valve cover off of this series engines I am sorta feeling my around the top end with the picture. Is the high pressure oil manifold bolted above the injectors? If so is this the HPOP reservoir mentioned that might be leaking off? If the pucks are on the underside of this "manifold" than I see a leaky "puck" causing a warm oil no start condition. Leaking injector orings might do the same but I feel this is my issue.

Again will an air leak test show me that I am headed in the the right direction as I am almost certain I have no hard part issues/failure.

Thanks everyone for holding my hand with this!!!
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aaronwilmoth80911
Advanced Member

307 Posts

Posted - 05/20/2015 :  5:30:46 PM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Can anyone explain how to do the air leak test? I think I understand, but don't want to do something wrong and goof something up.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2015 :  04:10:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I went to my local hyd shop/farm store and found the correct fitting to mate up with the high pressure hose elbow in the head, cut the barbed end off the fitting and brazed a pipe fitting on it. Bought two long grease gun hoses and a air hose end and screwed it all together.

I used unregulated 150psi shop air and the leak started almost instantly. Once you push some oil out of the smaller leaks they will start singing also.

If its pucks (which I would recommend installing regardless) you really wont be able to see the air escaping but you will know its not injector O-rings as you can get a pretty good visual of the area they are in.

Good luck!!
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aaronwilmoth80911
Advanced Member

307 Posts

Posted - 05/21/2015 :  04:42:58 AM  Show Profile  Visit aaronwilmoth80911's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Thanks for the response. I think we've got a few to take care of this summer.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2015 :  04:40:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm back...........

Dead batteries the week before school was to start. Replaced batteries and bus started and ran fine for two days. Bus ran morning route to school parking lot, driver shut off bus and that is where it sits now.... Ugh!!!

Its making about 50psi base oil pressure during cranking so I feel my high pressure injector oil is where it should be. I changed the new IPR out with the old one I took off the bus and still the engine just spins. Test lights lights on the positive side of the IPR connector so I feel I have 12volts to the IPR. If I unplug the IPR while cranking does this open it or close it fully?? If it closes it would this not be max pressure and help if I have a sketchy ICP?? I was hoping for an easy external fix but I feel I have a bad NEW ICP. I'm gonna try and scrounge up the needed fittings to get a true ICP pressure reading before tearing the valve cover off again to attack the NEW ICP. Ugh!!!

I feel I am chasing a electrical gremlin so if anyone has any advise I would love to hear it.

MANY THANKS!!!!!!
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Cal Mc
Advanced Member

276 Posts

Posted - 09/02/2015 :  9:38:49 PM  Show Profile  Visit Cal Mc's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We have had a number of long crank times and no starts on our 2010 Maxforce DT engines. The most common fault is a defective valve in the fuel filter base($400)
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/03/2015 :  04:36:32 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Cal Mc

We have had a number of long crank times and no starts on our 2010 Maxforce DT engines. The most common fault is a defective valve in the fuel filter base($400)



So how was this determined? Shot of either and it started or does fuel pressure show up with a scan tool??

Thanks!!!!!
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2015 :  08:11:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I cobbled up a test gauge to check HPOP/ICP pressure at cranking and it showed to be 900psi at cranking. Bus started and ran for a short time then died. I restarted it and its outside running now. I'm gonna let it warm up and check pressure and see if it restarts being warm.

Why the no-start with 1000 psi of pressure. I thought I read where 450/500 was enough to start. I still think my NEW ICP sensor is sketchy at best. Should I look into deadheading the HPOP and seeing what it maxes at??

Thanks all!!!

Edited by - CISDbusman on 09/08/2015 09:50:08 AM
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2015 :  09:48:49 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Bus restarted after warm no problem. I decided to road test (mistake!!) and pressure showed 4500 at times so I feel my HPOP is doing its job. Test drive was about 4 miles total and 1/4" mile from the bus barn the Golden Triangle came on with a "engine warn" and bus died. I watched the pressure gauge and ICP was well over 1000psi when engine died. Bus will not restart now. UGH!!!!

Should I go ahead and throw another new ICP sensor at it??

Bought ready to see what the insurance payout will be.........:-)
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bfaulkner
Senior Member

76 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2015 :  10:12:39 AM  Show Profile  Visit bfaulkner's Homepage  Reply with Quote
With the injection pressures of up to 4500 and 1000 when it dies I think your IPR and ICP are fine. as for the valve in the fuel filter it is the fuel pressure regulator and it causes low or erratic fuel pressure.

how are you testing the injection pressure? a gauge in the output of the Hpop? once it is hot or not starting take off the high pressure oil line from the hpop to the head and attach the gauge. during cranking you should see it low for a few seconds then climb to 1000 then above up to 5000. also when you crank on it you can generally hear the engine bog down when the high pressure builds.
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/08/2015 :  2:26:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bfaulkner

With the injection pressures of up to 4500 and 1000 when it dies I think your IPR and ICP are fine. as for the valve in the fuel filter it is the fuel pressure regulator and it causes low or erratic fuel pressure.

how are you testing the injection pressure? a gauge in the output of the Hpop? once it is hot or not starting take off the high pressure oil line from the hpop to the head and attach the gauge. during cranking you should see it low for a few seconds then climb to 1000 then above up to 5000. also when you crank on it you can generally hear the engine bog down when the high pressure builds.



Yes I had a spare fitting that screws into the head and I drilled and tapped it for a grease gun hose and a gauge. As for deadheading the HPOP I will have to make a fitting to test this way.

Now when I try to start the bus I get the golden triangle and "engine warn" shortly after the ICP pressure builds.

Guess I need to pull the codes and see if any red flags pop up that might be associated to the golden triangle of death............

Thanks!!!!
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CISDbusman
Senior Member

195 Posts

Posted - 09/14/2015 :  10:30:06 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I slept on the issue over the weekend and it still seemed like an intermittent electrical issue. So after a restful weekend and a comeback win from my Cowboys I decided to get the test light and my trusty jumper wire out and check fuses and relays, etc. I started with the relays on the fire wall and all seemed to be working (have no idea what they are for as the panel isn't labeled property). Found two relays zipped tied to a large harness above the starter and they checked out good also. So I decide to RECHECK the fuses in the battery box for the ECM,IDM and Transmission ECM. I had popped the covers off and check the fuses with my test light back when this issue first popped up and everything checked out. Luckily this round I had the bus parked where I was in the shade and after probing the ENG ECM fuse I seen a little spark. I pulled the fuse and sure enough one of the legs had been hot and was arching in the connector. Fuse was still good though..... UGH!!! I silver soldered the fuse to the connectors and slid it all back in the weatherhead for now until I can get a replacement fuse holder. What are yall using to replace this marvel of engineering? Those connectors aren't good enough for 30 amps must less 40 (which I didn't think they even made in that size fuse) UGH!!!

MY PSA of the day.

IF YOU BUS DIES RANDOMLY OR WON'T START AFTER NOT SHOWING ANY ISSUES LAST TIME IT WAS RAN DO A VERY CLOSE EXAM OF THE ECM FUSE, AND THE CONNECTORS INSIDE THE FUSE HOLDER. MINE LOOKED FINE UNTIL I REMOVED THE FUSE AND SEEN THE ARCED PIN. THE HEAT FROM THE BAD CONNECTION HAD RELIEVED THE INTERNAL TENSION ON THE CONNECTOR ALSO.


Thanks everyone for your ideas and thoughts on the lasted issue with this bus. I'm going to drive it on my route for a day or two before I send it out in the country.

Thanks again everyone!!!
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