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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 01/24/2014 :  5:24:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
The district I work in bought 90 new buses in 2013 which were all nice but one fatal flaw with just about all of them.. after the buses are started, in any weather just about, for about a few min. The driver takes off ....and weather in reverse or leaving the lot they just all the sudden die like they ran out of fuel! No codes, good fuel pressure, and oil pressure... honestly its happened to just about all of them... we have espar heaters installed and the drivers also plug them in since they are poor on startup in cold weather... I had called international near me talked to their Forman and he said the cure is a new fuel filter and diesel treatment... we run treatment already and if we use more I think would be a bad idea! So has anyone else had any problems with buses dying around 10min after startup? I don't see how a filter that is 5000 miles old needs to be changed when nothing is physically wrong with it!

Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  05:55:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What do you have to do to get them restarted? Have they tried different fuel? Are these HEUI engines or high pressure common rail?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  07:51:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My 13' International (DT) does this if the weather outside is cold. The oil pressure runs into the 80's and 90's (PSI) if you try to drive it, and it will "chug" until it warms up a bit (then falls to about 50 or 60 psi). Sometimes it will just stall if you don't give it enough time to get warm. I let mine idle for about 20 minutes to warm up when the temperatures are below -10C. In this time I can do all my pre-trip and paper work.

They will restart right away (after a stall), but do not like to be cold. At least that's how mine is. It is plugged in as well.


Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"

Edited by - 1983ChevroletWayne on 01/25/2014 07:53:55 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  09:58:13 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Below -10C or +20F the only acceptable viscosity oils to use according to International are 5W-40, 10W-30 & 0W-30 or 0W-40. Is the approved oil being used?

As per; TSI–06-12-25

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 01/25/2014 10:19:39 AM
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  10:04:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Basically to get them restarted you crank and crank till they pop and run..as far as different fuel...ulsd is all we use from I don't know what vendor.. we use valvetech additive and it has NEVER caused problems for any of other buses in the fleet... all the new ones are heui systems... the stalling has happened since the delivery of buses from Midwest and has progressively gotten worse... also even with both heaters working for the engine, the buses still start hard when its cold... we have buses from 2000 that sometimes don't get plugged in and they still start up no problem... hmmm trade backs!? Haha
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1983ChevroletWayne
Senior Member

Canada
160 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  10:04:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We run 15w40 in all our buses year round. If this is the case i'll have to mention this to the boys at the shop.

Formerly "83ChevroletWayne"



Pic courtesy of: "schoolbusdriver.org"

Edited by - 1983ChevroletWayne on 01/25/2014 10:05:31 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 01/25/2014 :  10:14:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 1983ChevroletWayne

We run 15w40 in all our buses year round. If this is the case i'll have to mention this to the boys at the shop.



It sure would be interesting to try the 5W-40 in one of the buses and see if it helps.

We have been running 5W-40 year around in our buses since the EGR engines came out, about 10 years now. We do have a 6.0 Powerstroke/VT365 with 190,000 miles on the original injectors, don't know if the oil helps there but it certainly did not hurt.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 01/26/2014 :  01:21:04 AM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
We were told specifically from the distributor to run 10w30 in the newest shipment of buses, although the rest of the entire fleet runs 15w40 and has been a tried and true method of lubrication and served us fairly well... It's just baffling that with some of our new ones with only 3-7k on the odometer having such issues and not even at the first oil change interval.
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  04:11:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by meanmechanic01

We were told specifically from the distributor to run 10w30 in the newest shipment of buses, although the rest of the entire fleet runs 15w40 and has been a tried and true method of lubrication and served us fairly well... It's just baffling that with some of our new ones with only 3-7k on the odometer having such issues and not even at the first oil change interval.



The distributor may have told you to run 10W-30 in the buses in your climate but that doesn't mean the factory fill in Tulsa, Oklahoma wasn't 15W-40. Also it would take several changes to get the full benefit of the lower viscosity oil as the DT retains about 6 quarts of oil that never drains out during an oil change, another reason to just run 5W-40 the year around.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 01/27/2014 04:17:32 AM
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 01/27/2014 :  7:03:47 PM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
I still don't think the oil is the issue in the slightest... last time one died when my computer was hooked up to it... nothing outta the ordinary and again no codes and values spot on... otherwise why would the dealer just send us 25 fuel filters on their dime to change when this happens.. hmm weird...
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C.HARDY
Advanced Member

338 Posts

Posted - 01/28/2014 :  5:17:40 PM  Show Profile  Click to see C.HARDY's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
I believe I would try a filter on some and see if it helps. Maybe a flaw or trash from the factory??

"Hardybusman"
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torque
Senior Member

Canada
71 Posts

Posted - 02/03/2014 :  5:52:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
A few things to keep in mind.
Sudden = electrical.
See it comming, can seem close to sudden :), fuel.
Fuel filters are a consumable item, up to you to service and maintain so don't expect dealer to send you some. Is there a fuel strainer some where? Any water present?
A fuel separater will not allow water or fuel to flow though it once it has water in it. An engine can sit and idle for hours with a near plugged fuel filter/seperator, it can sometimes only show up once a demand for a larger quantity of fuel is demanded, putting a greater load on the engine, starting to drive away :) Not sure where you are, or what the temperatures are in your area or what fuel is available in your area but I think most areas offer #1 or #2 diesel, most use #2 but #1 has a lower gel point and overall a better quality fuel at a cost of around 3 cents a liter more. Check with you fuel supplier. Your laptop may not show obvious problems, but the information should still be there, just harder to see. In the end you may have to resort to hooking up an old fashioned mechanical pressure gauge to your fuel, and to your base oil pressure to stop guessing and pin point the problem :) And you cannot compare engines from 2000 to the ones today LOL. they were good and reliable in the old days :) Usually when it is oil, it will not start, or start and stall in under a minute, long crank time to restart. Your problem sounds more like fuel, starts, runs ok till you take off, untill you put a load on the engine then quits and long crank time to restart. But of course there are other things can cause these problems. Stop guessing, hook up some gauges and even if you don't find the problem, you have eliminated some possibilities:)
Carefull with fuel additives as it may void warranties on newer engines and is usually not nesseccary.
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misterbill
Advanced Member

United States
302 Posts

Posted - 02/05/2014 :  06:23:31 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
My 2013 IC cuts out several times when starting it when it is cold, not really the issue of the topic here. It is extremely cold blooded. In warm weather I wouldn't dream of taking it out without a significant warm up. Apparantly, because of the twin turbo, it has lower compression, and I'm not sure how great the plate type preheater is. There have been two times this year that it just plain would not start.

High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus."
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2014 :  06:49:48 AM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Torque. Since the beginning I've had manual gauges hooked up from fuel and oil pressures just in case the computer was wrong or have variations in the sensors.. like I said all spot on, all we have ever used is #1 fuel and I think isn't #2 high sulfur off road diesel not allowed for on road use? Anyways we have always used primo fuel and never has gelled up, also our additive also helps take care of any problems.. as for using such additives they were recommended for use by the local dealer so I couldn't imagine it voiding warranties..

Edited by - meanmechanic01 on 02/08/2014 06:51:08 AM
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 02/08/2014 :  09:46:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Calling "#2" fuel #2 does not mean its second rate fuel. In fact #2 ultra low sulfer fuel is the desired fuel when temperatures allow, for best power and fuel mileage.
You would be hard pressed to find either #1 or #2 high sulfur fuel available anywhere in the United States.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 02/08/2014 09:46:51 AM
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meanmechanic01
Active Member

17 Posts

Posted - 02/09/2014 :  7:05:31 PM  Show Profile  Visit meanmechanic01's Homepage  Reply with Quote
o ok I was under the understanding the red colored fuel #2 at the pumps by my house were high sulfur.. I knew it cost less because its for "off road use only" and road tax didn't apply to the farmers equipment near my house... never knew #2 was for highway use...
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  04:08:18 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The red dye only indicates that tax has not been paid on the fuel. As a public school district we are tax exempt and can & do legally use the dyed fuel.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Trailboss
Senior Member

United States
146 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  04:23:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In Oklahoma red and green fuel are the same only difference is red fuel is tax exempt.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2192 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  08:51:55 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

The red dye only indicates that tax has not been paid on the fuel. As a public school district we are tax exempt and can & do legally use the dyed fuel.



In Illinois schools pay road tax but not federal or sales tax, so we have to run clear fuel not dyed.

As for the question at hand, if you have changed the fuel filters I am with torque when he says it's electrical. Just my to cents worth.

Funny for the day: Name the movie this line came from. "No, no, no, no, no, this sucker's electrical, but I need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of electricity I need."

LOL!!

Bryan
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Tb4020
Senior Member

United States
63 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  09:43:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Back To The Future but I can't remember which one! 1 or 3
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05ICCE
Senior Member

USA
64 Posts

Posted - 02/10/2014 :  5:20:25 PM  Show Profile  Visit 05ICCE's Homepage  Reply with Quote
BTT Future 1

Mr. Scott, "because he drives a COOL BUS"
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2192 Posts

Posted - 02/11/2014 :  06:26:09 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Yep, Back to the Future one! Way to go "future boy". I'm a big fan! (not to the point of obsession like some though, lol) Don't like many movies, but I really like this series. Guess it's a complete break from reality for me. I think I'll root for the Cubs next year (2015) just so the movie can be correct. lol

Bryan
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mik
Senior Member

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 02/12/2014 :  4:11:18 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
same problem here , but I eliminated temp by parking bus's inside overnight. and it still refuses to start . summer or winter it doesnt want to run ..

if bus is started & driver takes off before a minute of idle time it stalls. if you cycle the key in the fuel prime procedure it starts right up. if bus is allowed to idle for a minute or more ( no throttle input ) all is well .

and the IH dealer is aware but has no fix yet

Edited by - mik on 02/13/2014 2:49:23 PM
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misterbill
Advanced Member

United States
302 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  06:28:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mik

if bus is allowed to idle for a minute or more ( no throttle input ) all is well.


The bus fueler at my company tells me he runs my bus(2013 IC)for a long time every day(I work afternoons). I'll make sure to tell him to keep doing this.

I think he thinks that I don't believe him. I usually say to him "You didn't start my bus today did you". When he tells me he did I am usually surprised. Took me at least 20 tries to get it started the other day. I finally figured out to crank it until it 'pops', and then let it preheat again.

High School Friend-"Hey! How are you! Well, I guess you can't be doing too well, you're driving a school bus."

Edited by - misterbill on 02/13/2014 06:30:55 AM
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  12:34:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Not sure if this fits but i think it does..... I have six of the latest version I-6 Maxxforce engines all of them have twin turbo and electric supply pumps.... I have had random complaints from drivers about start up and stall since recieving them into fleet..

IH dealer tells me there is a re-flash for Engine ECM that is suppose to help with issue, anyone can check their own calibration score card on the On Command web site(if you have access to website) ....To see if Engine ECM re-flash is needed... but dealer also tells me they have a couple of buses setting at their lot that re-flash didn't cure.... And IH is working diligently on a fix for,,(small lmao)

Maybe this has been said didn't read all posts above....The latest Maxxforce engines also have lower compression in cyl's to help them meet emission standards ...so that might help explain coldblooded/harder start up in cold temps and why mine have to be plugged in to even attempt to get running in winter weather..

Edited by - slippert on 02/13/2014 12:36:55 PM
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Fastback
Top Member

904 Posts

Posted - 02/13/2014 :  2:18:59 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Have'nt we been dealing with harder to cold start, lower compression, DT466s since the first EGR versions in 2004? As per this TSI;
https://evalue.internationaldelivers.com/service/SVCDOCS/Navistar/tsipdf/041230.PDF

As explained to me, the 2004s and newer??, temporarily increased the compression ratio on cold starts by filling piston "bowls" with raw fuel, that's why when they finally start they rev to the moon and belch smoke. ????????

Are the newer ones even worse?

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
354 Posts

Posted - 02/14/2014 :  12:35:42 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Fastback... My dealer flat out stated that on the twin turbo I-6 engines 2013-14 buses ...compression was lowered to help meet fed emission standards. and offered up that as a reason for harder starts in cold weather... I have buses parked at 7 local districts throughout the county and if one of their breakers trip, ground fault circuits or my block heater fails over night and temp is below 5-10 degrees you can figure on waiting for an hour or 2 after problem is fixed to get engine fired..

these are the newest version of the Maxxforce engine not sure what yr emission these are 2012-13-14?... as far as my 2004 thru 2010 engines
2004 emission start fantastic here...I can get most of them fired without being plugged in, no matter what outside temp is...

2010's no problem with them either

My 2007 emission ones can be finicky in cold and definitely like block heater help..

It is just the brand new version that seems to have a problem..They seem to be worse to me... Cummins is an option in IC now..lol

Edited by - slippert on 02/14/2014 12:37:57 PM
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Bassman
Top Member

USA
505 Posts

Posted - 02/18/2014 :  02:07:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We have found intake air heaters (grid heaters) bad on some of our 2010 emissions MaxxForceDT and that makes them miserable to start below 15 degrees. Also, on 2007 emissions MaxxForceDT, we have found some connection issues on the red block on the grid heater. It pays to check them with an ammeter (135 amps plus or minus 25 amps).
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Brad Barker
Administrator

USA
832 Posts

Posted - 04/06/2014 :  3:09:12 PM  Show Profile  Visit Brad Barker's Homepage  Click to see Brad Barker's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
Block heater working? Ohm it. It should read 12 ohms + or - 0.5. Grid heater working? Read with clamp on amp meter or watch volt drop on volt gauge for timed period. Oil viscosity correct for ambient temp? Engine cranking speed minimum of 130 rpm. In cold weather all should idle for a time before taking off until engine smooths out or goes into automatic idle up. If a problem still exists connect service max software and watch pressures, ICP, FDP, Oil and EGR percent. Start a performance snapshot at start up and record until engine quits then save. Run the recorded snap shot and observe all signals to catch the issue.
If you have one that the breakers trip to the block heater a quick method to get it started is to use a salamander type heater placed at the front or rear bumper depending on engine location so it blows hot air under the engine. Let it run for ten minutes and the engine should start. These can be bought at Lowes or Home Depot for less than $300.

Brad A. Barker
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