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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2002 :  1:17:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Just for future knowledge....would an air door or electric door be better? I'd prefer an air door, but I'm not sure if I'd be able to afford it for my bus, so would electric be a better alternative? Or would you rather recommend air? (I'd love to go with air) What are the dis.../advanatages to them?

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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2002 :  1:24:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like air and I really think air door do a good job. I think it would be better because there will not be as many things that can go wrong. I know of a contractor who has a elctrict door on his Carpenter Fe all he has is trouble. Something keeps messing up and he got to replace it so much he says he puts to money into that electric door. I hear more people getting air than electric. I think Air is Better.

BlueBird44-Blue Bird Built for Students.
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wagonmaster
Top Member

USA
2298 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2002 :  5:22:23 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Air doors are now part of the Florida spec. We prefer air over electric for a lot of reasons, but mostly because of reliabilty. Same reason we prefer air stop arms and crossing arms. When sand gets in the electric units they are done, but air units aren't affected! The current manufacturers all offer good quality air doors, they don't all offer an electric door.
Joe

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B. Busguy33
Top Member

USA
3444 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2002 :  5:31:24 PM  Show Profile  Visit B. Busguy33's Homepage  Send B. Busguy33 an AOL message  Send B. Busguy33 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
I would definitely rather go with an air door over an electric door. I hear bad things about the electric door. The air door seems to be more dependable, plus it makes the "swoosh" sound...hehehehe.

If your bus is already equipped with air brakes, you might as well go with the air door over the electric one. The most difficult part will be the plumbing you need to install for the air door. I'm sure it would be quite a project! It is even harder to do if your bus is equipped with a hydraulic brake system, but it still can be done. There are some hydraulic brake buses here that have an air door on them. I think the air doors came with them from the factory, though.

Good luck on your decision, but I think the air door is the way to go.

__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)


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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 03/27/2002 :  6:42:06 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I guess I'll be going wtih air, then! my only concern is the plumbing, though. I'll have to install a vavle to stop the air floor if there's a leak, no to mention the nylon tubing. thanks for your input!

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Thomas guy
Senior Member

USA
165 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2002 :  3:03:58 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hey Freinds,
I also would mutch rather go with the air door but, I have had no experiance with the electric door. So there you have it good luck and have a good time.

Buh-Bye Y'all,
Thomas guy

Remember when it comes to a kid's education school bus drivers lead the way!!

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largebus
Advanced Member

USA
468 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2002 :  5:10:13 PM  Show Profile  Visit largebus's Homepage  Send largebus an AOL message  Reply with Quote
My driver has had a serious problem with her wrist with the airdoor. She believes that she has developed carpultunnel (did I spell that right?) from turning the air door. She says she has counted using it over 100 times every morning. We have switched over to a spare with a manual because she can't bend her wrist. Whether it's air or electric it should be a push in-out button. It would avoid problems like this.

Getting them there is the first-and the easiest/hardest-part.
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thomas86_a
Top Member

USA
4413 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2002 :  7:14:52 PM  Show Profile  Visit thomas86_a's Homepage  Send thomas86_a an AOL message  Reply with Quote
That is odd, I always hear that manually cotnroled doors cause carpal tunnel, I have never heard of the air door switch affecting it, not matter what type of switch it is.

"Thomas Parking Only- All others will be crushed."
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2002 :  7:25:23 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
You can get carpaltunnel from anything repetative. Like, telemarketers can get it from typing all the time.

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1983WardFord
Top Member

USA
1395 Posts

Posted - 04/04/2002 :  7:33:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
largebus, was it from one of the AmTran twist-knob door openers? I would agree that it would cause the carpal-tunnel. I've driven a bus with one of those, and i can't stand it. The push pull knobs or Thomas' switch-type openers are probably the best kind to have. In my opinion anyway.

Superior--built tough, built to last!
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cowlitzcoach
Advanced Member

USA
325 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  06:28:18 AM  Show Profile  Visit cowlitzcoach's Homepage  Reply with Quote
If your bus is not equipped with air brakes the cost of retrofitting a manual door to air would be rather expensive. If your bus is equipped with air brakes, the installation of an air cylinder to open and close the door is possible but it may not be practical.

The air ram exerts a lot of pressure to open and close the door. If the mount for the air ram isn't strong enough you will be breaking stuff. If the air ram isn't regulated properly you can also push the door clear off of the bus. In some cases, due in large part to the location of the air ram, the size of the open door may not be as large the manual door.

Door control switches if they are not mounted in a convenient location and of a good design can cause new and different repetitive stress problems.

The Crown electric over air door control with one button to open and another button to close is one of the better designs.

Of the mechanical door valves, the Gillig design is the easiest to use. It requires very little effort to move the valve unlike some of the push/pull switches.

Going to an electric door control is not such a great choice. They do have problems if they get wet or dirty. In addition, if you have ever had a car with electric windows or power door locks you will understand the problems you may have with an electric door.

In days long past some buses had vacuum operated door controls. These were usually found on Type 'B' buses that didn't have air brakes. They worked okay but took a very long time to open and close.

Personally, I would live with the manual and look forward to the day when the bus with the manaul door can be replaced with a bus with a power door.

Mark O.

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largebus
Advanced Member

USA
468 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  11:27:14 AM  Show Profile  Visit largebus's Homepage  Send largebus an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Yes it is an AmTran twist knob-I find the location on the left side rather odd (no offense to left handed or ambidextrous folks but for most of us it's better placed on the right). My driver says she has turned it so many times she's not surprised she's having problems.

Getting them there is the first-and the easiest/hardest-part.
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1042
Senior Member

USA
156 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  11:59:46 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Logan, I would suspect that as much as the repetitive motion might be causing the problems your driver is experiencing - the fact that particular twist-type knob is POORLY DESIGNED is also causing her problems.

How bout your experience, Superior? For my part I noticed right away that if you aren't careful, the x#@&% knob will unscrew itself every few doesn't times it is activated and will simply fall clean off the panel.

The white plastic switch handle is only held in place by a thin plastic threaded collar! The act of turning the handled counter-clockwise to close the door tends to loosen the plastic threaded color. I know of one newer driver who almost paniced when her door handled actually fell off the panel and of all places - into the bottom of her purse, all while she was trying to close up and pull away from an unloading stop in traffic!

So out of habit, we who drive these buses have begun a practice of almost constantly finger-tightening the little bugger just to keep it from falling out.

Pretty bad, huh? I'd like to see the Internaltional people replace that tiny part with something more substantial.

Good luck to your driver!

1042
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B. Busguy33
Top Member

USA
3444 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  12:08:14 PM  Show Profile  Visit B. Busguy33's Homepage  Send B. Busguy33 an AOL message  Send B. Busguy33 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
Just some FYI: Blue Bird now uses a rocker-style switch (inverted) to open/close the air-operated entrance doors on their newest switch panels. The air door switch is located to the right of the driver on the All-Americans only. They are no longer using the push/pull knob for the air door.

I do like the Thomas air door switch as well.

(Superior83, 1042, and Largebus): I do have a question regarding the air door switch on your AmTran buses. First of all, are these conventionals, FE's, or RE's? (This applies primarily to the RE's...I am not too familiar with the placement of the switch on the pre-'01 conventionals and the pre-'99 FE's) Secondly, is the air door switch mounted at an angle ('99 and up with gray dashboard area), or is the switch mounted flat ('96-'98 with black dashboard area)??

I am just curious to know because I wouldn't think the flat-mounted air door switch would cause any sort of wrist problems. The basic movement to activate that switch is to just swing it back and forth. But, on the angle-mounted air door switch, I can understand where there would be some wrist-related problems because you have to place your wrist at an angle and move your wrist.

I like the design of the switch. International just has to figure out a way to prevent the switch from falling out occasionally. But, as far as placement is concerned, I like the switch that is flat-mounted on the '96-'98 model RE's better than the current placement.
__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)




Edited by - B. Busguy33 on 04/05/2002 12:53:38 PM
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1983WardFord
Top Member

USA
1395 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  3:59:20 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
For my part I noticed right away that if you aren't careful, the x#@&% knob will unscrew itself every few doesn't times it is activated and will simply fall clean off the panel.


Funny you should mention that 1042. I've had the little bugger fall off on me at least twice. Once while still in the garage and once on a route. Lucky for me, it fell into my hand and I got it on rather quickly. The first time it happened, though, I did panic a little bit.

Bob, this bus is a 1992 Ward International ocnventional which, I believe, was converted over from a manual door. The switch is located underneath the warning light indicators to the right of the switches. As you know, that puts the placement of the switch at an angle.

Superior--built tough, built to last!
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bbird66
Top Member

USA
881 Posts

Posted - 04/05/2002 :  7:19:22 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
You can have your air and electric, good ol manual door is the best you do not have all the other stuff in the "loop" to go wrong. If you have air, like cowliz says you have the compressor to deal with and more than likely you have air brakes, which is another sad story in my book (hyd are better) and electric are well..wires full of problems for corosion ect. Like I always say, Keep it simple stupid!

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LaidlawDriverMassachusetts
Senior Member

USA
160 Posts

Posted - 05/04/2002 :  8:27:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hello everyone...Well, i believe I have an air door - I drive an Amtran International Rear Engine 96 model 72 passenger transit style bus - It's a nice bus but it is beginning to show it's age when it climbs hills but wouldn't trade it for one of those Front engines..I hate those things, we have five in our yard.
On my bus- The door switch is located on the right side - of my seat, near the window, and near the heater switch, i have two buttons next to the switch, One that will put the red lights on in case I don't want to open the door and another one that will bring in the crossing gate if i need to pull it in before closing the door to deaativate the reds. The turning of the switch for the door hasn't seemed to bother my hand at all- i usually push it with my thumb instead of twisting my wrist - i don't like the design of the new amtrans with air doors..The ones made after 2000..The controls are tilted on the side panel instead of being on a flat surface ..

I have hydrolic service brakes - but i have an air parking break so i assume my door is air and not electric-- I know in some busses that have air service breaks and air park brakes - The air pressure has to build up before the door will operate ...Come to think of it I think my door is half electric and half air ..I"m not quite sure ....

By the way does anyone know why the newer buses made by amtran seem to have those doors that flap outwards ? I hate those things - My bus has the door that looks like a V when it opens,,All the newer busses in my yard seem to be coming with those doors that swing out ...

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wagonmaster
Top Member

USA
2298 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  04:53:08 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The outward opening doors are generally considered to be easier to manufacture and maintain than the folding type.
Joe

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Skewl Bus Boi
Advanced Member

USA
323 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  07:04:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It used to be that jacknife doors were more popular than outward-opening, but because of lower cost to maintain and manufacture, outward-opening are now standard equipment. Before you had to special-order outward, now you have to special-order jacknife. For things like that, Laidlaw just goes with standard equipment.

A big thing with AmTran is the air parking brake/hyd service brakes. Although I prefer full air brakes, it's a good option for people who order hyd. I just feel bad for anyone who has to pre-trip them as an air brake system.

Back to the door, if you hear a hiss when you open the door, it's an air door. It may have electric controls (the switch on the panel that tells the air system to open or close the door), but the door itself is air-powered. On pre-99 REs with jacknife doors, you can actually see the air cylinder mounted on the dash. Same with Crowns. On an inward-opening door, that's a much better place to mount it than overhead, you get more torque when it opens and closes.

I really liked the pre-99 AmTran REs, the panel was simple, they had the older switches which I love, and the door control was mounted flat.

—Phil

"Blue Bird!" "of happiness?"
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thomasvista2012
Top Member

USA
747 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  09:16:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Why anyone would love a jacknife door and hate an outward opening door beat me!

First of all, a jacknife door is outdated, and is harder and more complicated to maintain and fix. Second of all, in an emergency, it is easier to open an OUTWARD door than a jacknife door.

To each his own, I guess....

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B. Busguy33
Top Member

USA
3444 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  12:08:08 PM  Show Profile  Visit B. Busguy33's Homepage  Send B. Busguy33 an AOL message  Send B. Busguy33 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
LaidlawDriverMA,

Welcome to the SBF Forums! I have one question to ask you. Is your bus yard still receiving brand-new International/AmTran RE's?? When was the last time you received new buses?? Just curious.

quote:
Why anyone would love a jacknife door and hate an outward opening door beat me!

First of all, a jacknife door is outdated, and is harder and more complicated to maintain and fix. Second of all, in an emergency, it is easier to open an OUTWARD door than a jacknife door.

To each his own, I guess....



Some people still prefer the jackknife doors, perhaps for the few reasons that I can think of.

First of all, drivers don't have to worry about parking too close next to a bus and having their door open up all the way, only to find out that it is hitting the bus next to theirs. Also, they don't have to worry about opening the door on a very high curbing, hill, or snow bank. Thirdly, if you have an outward opening door with dirty glass and your right-hand side exterior rearview mirrors aren't properly adjusted, then you don't have as good visibility of what you're seeing in those right-hand side, exterior rearview mirrors. Fourthly, the kids wouldn't have to walk into a ditch or a hill with the jackknife door. If the bus had outward door, they have to walk around the door...and there may be a hill or ditch there that they may walk into.

Two other advantages to outward opening doors are for one, it is easier to clean the bottom step of the stairwell and two, they are easier to open than the jackknife doors (if you have a manual door handle).

Just adding my few cents.



__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)


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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  12:16:33 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
With how easy it is to open, it depends on the manufacturer. Blue Birds and other company's j/k doors are very hard to operate, but Thomases are about the same as their outward doors. Thomas uses the same door as the outward, it just is hinged differently and on a track. That is, of course, before like 1993.

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1983WardFord
Top Member

USA
1395 Posts

Posted - 05/05/2002 :  10:31:29 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Starting with the 1999 model years, jackknife doors on new school buses were outlawed in Ohio. Any school bus that rolls out of a factory destined for Ohio MUST have outward-opening doors.

I prefer the jackknife doors though. I'm not sure why, I just like them better.

My $.02

Superior--built tough, built to last!
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thomas86_a
Top Member

USA
4413 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2002 :  1:31:43 PM  Show Profile  Visit thomas86_a's Homepage  Send thomas86_a an AOL message  Reply with Quote
I personally prefer outward opening doors. If you have a manual control, it is much easier to operate.

Anyone tried to open a Thomas Inward opening door with a manual control? My 98 had it, wow that sucker was heavy, much worse than my 86, or the new 02.
Same goes for Wayne's inward opening door.

As for Blue Birds those things wern't heavy, so with their inward opening, it wasn't hard to open, but the damn thing rattles to much when you are going down the road.



"Thomas Parking Only- All others will be crushed."
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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2002 :  3:47:22 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Anyone tried to open a Thomas Inward opening door with a manual control? My 98 had it, wow that sucker was heavy, much worse than my 86, or the new 02.


Yeah, that was with that 40/60 door. But before those, Thomas's inward doors had the same leaves as the outward, just hinged differently and had an addon piece to the door handle, so it was basically the same. And, if a weakling like me can open my bus door, I'm sure anyone can.

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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2002 :  4:36:33 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I grew about around jackknfie doors and I closed them before I really liked them and liked the look. I never had a problem closing one of them. I am starting to like the look of the outward door that what everyone has. THey seem to give more visiblity is what I think and are lighter. I like them yellow and not black. YOu can clean you step better with outward than in as metioned above. I like both. I see nothing wrong with eithier.
It is easier to open you door in small places with a j/k than outward.

BlueBird44-Blue Bird Built for Students.
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thomasvista2012
Top Member

USA
747 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2002 :  6:58:40 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If you want a jacknife door that is a real pain-in-the-@$$ to open, it has to be the older Blue Bird All-American. The door is heavy as everything, very difficult to close. You want to talk about a bad case of carpal-tunnel syndrome, well there it is.

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1983WardFord
Top Member

USA
1395 Posts

Posted - 05/06/2002 :  7:18:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't care much for any of the Wayne jackknife doors. Those are the heaviest doors I've had experience with. You have to use the momentum of the bus to help close them. Not only a bad case of carpal-tunnel, but a messed up shoulder to add to it.

Superior--built tough, built to last!
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Bus Boy 39
Top Member

USA
1315 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  03:49:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:

I don't care much for any of the Wayne jackknife doors. Those are the heaviest doors I've had experience with. You have to use the momentum of the bus to help close them. Not only a bad case of carpal-tunnel, but a messed up shoulder to add to it.

Superior--built tough, built to last!



I have also heard that Wayne's jacknife door is heavy as blasins'.

"What can your bus do?"
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BlueBird44
Top Member

USA
1639 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  12:35:09 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have also heard about the Wayne doors are very hard to open and close. Now I opened and closed a Crown By Carpenter Door Outward that was so light. No problem to open and close. Althought I don't like there handle set up. I really like Blue Bird's handle.

BlueBird44-Blue Bird Built for Students.
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Rich
Top Member

United States
5768 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  1:26:28 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Speaking of Crown by Carpenter doors, the one on my bus is experiencing a problem.

Whenever the bus canipults over a bump, the door opens up because the little lock on it can't secure. I guess one of the bolts is loose... but what do expect. It seems that ALL the bolts are geting loose.

Another chapter on Bus 345.


-Richard Solano

Contact Me: rls1400@aol.com or by AIM: rls1400
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thomas91
Advanced Member

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  1:59:24 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I drive a 91 Thomas International. It has an air door and it is quite nice, except for on very cold days it slows down and makes all kinds of racket, I have to open the door, and then flip the valve in the upper right corner of the bus to dump the air. All is back to normal.

The Open/Close controller is on the left right beside the steering wheel. It is a lever about four inches long; forward opens the door and backward closes. It is nice because you can just crack the door open unlike the busses with switches. I like the control.

Does anyone else have this type of controller on their Thomas? Was it an aftermarket job?

We bought the bus used about four years ago and used it as a spare for two years and now its mine because we retired all of the pre 1990 busses (I drove an '88 IH BB before)...Its showing its age, but I still like it!

-thomas91

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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  3:06:37 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I drive a 91 Thomas International. It has an air door and it is quite nice, except for on very cold days it slows down and makes all kinds of racket, I have to open the door, and then flip the valve in the upper right corner of the bus to dump the air. All is back to normal.

The Open/Close controller is on the left right beside the steering wheel. It is a lever about four inches long; forward opens the door and backward closes. It is nice because you can just crack the door open unlike the busses with switches. I like the control.

Does anyone else have this type of controller on their Thomas? Was it an aftermarket job?

We bought the bus used about four years ago and used it as a spare for two years and now its mine because we retired all of the pre 1990 busses (I drove an '88 IH BB before)...Its showing its age, but I still like it!

-thomas91




Many Thomas buses before 1997, I believe had that lever next to the control panel... How do you crack the door? I've always wondered that.

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B. Busguy33
Top Member

USA
3444 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  4:27:30 PM  Show Profile  Visit B. Busguy33's Homepage  Send B. Busguy33 an AOL message  Send B. Busguy33 a Yahoo! Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Many Thomas buses before 1997, I believe had that lever next to the control panel... How do you crack the door? I've always wondered that.


Hi Mike,

On air-operated entrance doors, you can spec the switch to be a 3-position switch. 1 position for off, 1 to crack the door open, and the 3rd position to open the door fully. I believe all the manufacturers offer this as an option on their air-door switches. But, most districts go with the standard, 2-position (open/close) switch.

__________________________________________
-Bob
(a.k.a. B. Busguy33)


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Thomas Ford 85-16
Top Member

USA
4177 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  4:45:38 PM  Show Profile  Visit Thomas Ford 85-16's Homepage  Send Thomas Ford 85-16 an AOL message  Reply with Quote
Well, some people have said that you can fool the older Thomas doors into being cracked...was this what you were talking about thomas91?

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thomas91
Advanced Member

USA
212 Posts

Posted - 05/07/2002 :  5:04:47 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What I was refering to when I said cracked was this: On a manual door, you could open the door just enough for the reds to come on to keep weather out. I can do this with my door also. I can have the door open in any posision, just like a manual door. It is a lever, not a rocker switch or whatever

-thomas91

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