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Mechan1c
Top Member

USA
668 Posts

Posted - 10/08/2013 :  12:32:16 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
"I just read about the Cummins 5.0L V8 diesel, is it a possibility that IC will be receiving this engine as an option?"

I would expect to see this engine in the BE product soon. Soon in this vocation could mean the last quarter of 2014...
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 10/10/2013 :  05:36:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 78fordwayne

Rumor im hearing is that the MaxxForce 7 may be gone in a year or 2 and the Cummins will be standard with the DT as an option. Any one else hear that ?



I heard that too. I just hope things get much more reliable in the future. I must admit I don't have any experience with Cummins so they may have the reliability down. But Navistar has some work to do in that area. You make a product that's simple, reliable, & durable then add in a good servicing dealer I'm your friend for life. Things are just entirely too complicated in today's world. I know that's not these engine companies fault but there has to be a better way to meet the EPA regs than what they are doing today.

Bryan
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2177 Posts

Posted - 10/24/2013 :  12:35:45 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
http://www.navistar.com/navistar/news

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Wolf0r
Top Member

USA
2177 Posts

Posted - 11/06/2013 :  12:51:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok so what I gather is International will do their own warranty work on the Cummins engines installed in their products. They won't work on the Cummins in the Bluebird, you take that to a Caterpillar dealer. Cummins don't wanna touch any of them. LOL That's the sentiment I get in my area anyway. Not gonna be my problem much longer.

“The good thing about science is that it's true whether or not you believe in it.”
Neil deGrasse Tyson
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Oldiron
Active Member

15 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2013 :  04:14:07 AM  Show Profile  Visit Oldiron's Homepage  Reply with Quote
It is my understanding the Cummins 5.0 V8, is designed for light duty applications such as the type A buses. And it is rumored Nissan will be using it in the Titan pickups for 2015.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/11/2013 :  8:17:46 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
In the last School Bus Fleet issue they were showing a full size bus in the ad they had for the 5.0L. I can't believe they would want to run one in a full size but you never know. After all the failures of V8 diesels in the past I can't believe that Cummins is trying this. If anyone can do it they can.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  07:22:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

In the last School Bus Fleet issue they were showing a full size bus in the ad they had for the 5.0L. I can't believe they would want to run one in a full size but you never know. After all the failures of V8 diesels in the past I can't believe that Cummins is trying this. If anyone can do it they can.



But you've had more inline 6 problems in the last few years than I've had V8 diesel problems in the last 30.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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slippert
Advanced Member

USA
374 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  07:55:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Biggest and saddest thing in our world today is it really doesn't matter what it is... products are built as throw-away... They seem to build an engine to last the expected life of a bus and then throw it out... sad part is buses are being expected to last longer these days.. by our school corp's...

Personally I can't blame the base engine be it a v-8 or inline 6 for most of my headache's... The emission equipment and computerization seems to cause more problems...than the long block ever does... the more complicated you have to build things the more problems are bound to occur... IMO..

On a side note I am an inline guy, a proven version for yrs...as long as it has sleeves in it... I can't say I have ever worked on a really great v-8 diesel engine myself, all I have ever come across seemed to be built as throw-away versions... didn't matter who's name was on the ID tag... I take that back I do remember a large v-8 Cat engine that was on some of the drilling rigs I use to work on,,,now that was a durable engine and it was completely rebuild-able too.. of course that was long before any computer or emission crap was installed on them...lol! Hopefully this Cummins version will work out well!?!? Only time will tell us...

I love the 6.7 cummins engines I have in my fleet other than egr, turbo, emission issues very good running engines...so far..

Edited by - slippert on 11/12/2013 07:58:07 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  09:25:57 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I don't remember a good V8. I agree the latest problems with new engines are probably not the base engine (hardware) but the add on computer and EPA related garbage. Even Cat had a garbage V8 called 3208. My cousin who worked for Cat called them scatter Cats. lol

Bryan
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  09:31:47 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

In the last School Bus Fleet issue they were showing a full size bus in the ad they had for the 5.0L. I can't believe they would want to run one in a full size but you never know. After all the failures of V8 diesels in the past I can't believe that Cummins is trying this. If anyone can do it they can.



But you've had more inline 6 problems in the last few years than I've had V8 diesel problems in the last 30.



What do you call this, Fastback? http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37137

Guess I was wrong about the base engine analysis. These things just make me tired. I've got one left and I'll bet my last dollar that I have major problems with it before it's gone. Praying I don't.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  09:47:20 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

quote:
Originally posted by bwest

In the last School Bus Fleet issue they were showing a full size bus in the ad they had for the 5.0L. I can't believe they would want to run one in a full size but you never know. After all the failures of V8 diesels in the past I can't believe that Cummins is trying this. If anyone can do it they can.



But you've had more inline 6 problems in the last few years than I've had V8 diesel problems in the last 30.



What do you call this, Fastback? http://www.schoolbusfleet.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=37137




It isn't my bus

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 11/12/2013 09:47:49 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/12/2013 :  11:22:25 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
LOL, guess not.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  09:43:07 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
It appears that the Cummins ISB engine will be priced similar to the MaxxForce 7 V8 BUT perhaps the most interesting detail is that it might only be available in 65 passenger and larger CE models with 65 gallon rear mounted fuel tanks.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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Bus Tech II
Senior Member

100 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  10:45:44 AM  Show Profile  Visit Bus Tech II's Homepage  Reply with Quote
Im hearing a ball park of about 1500.00 less than standard Maxxforce 7.
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  11:13:30 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
One bid I saw was the 220 horse Cummins $115 cheaper than a 215 horse Maxx 7, and that included the extra cost for the, required with the Cummins, rear mounted fuel tank.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  12:04:34 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Sleeves or no in this 5.0?

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  12:12:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

Sleeves or no in this 5.0?



No sleeves in either the 5.0 V8 that is not available in an IC bus or the 6.7 liter ISB that is currently available in the IC bus

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  2:09:00 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Wait, why would I want Cummins in an IC again?

http://brattain.com/pages/2010FAQ.htm

http://brattain.com/pages/2010.htm

http://www.brattain.com/files/2010/DidYouKnow-FactsAboutUrea.pdf

"No second fuel to worry about"

I never knew urea/SCR was a second fuel. I hope they trained their school bus salesman on the new Cummins option!

How about the fear mongering that urea isn't as safe as advertised... truckers could "maybe even die" according to this hosted op-ed on the International dealer's server:

http://brattain.com/files/Urea2009.pdf

Edited by - RichBusman on 11/19/2013 2:22:14 PM
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  2:26:21 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

Wait, why would I want Cummins in an IC again?

http://brattain.com/pages/2010FAQ.htm

http://brattain.com/pages/2010.htm

http://www.brattain.com/files/2010/DidYouKnow-FactsAboutUrea.pdf

"No second fuel to worry about"

I never knew urea/SCR was a second fuel. I hope they trained their school bus salesman on the new Cummins option!

How about the fear mongering that urea isn't as safe as advertised... truckers could "maybe even die" according to this hosted op-ed on the International dealer's server:

http://brattain.com/files/Urea2009.pdf




As late as 2008 Cummins was also banging the no aftertreatment, no urea drum, they didn't seem to have any trouble changing course and training their sales staff.

http://phx.corporate-ir.net/phoenix.zhtml?c=112916&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1166117&highlight=

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  2:33:25 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I wish I could site an article that John Deere ran all throughout the two-cylinder era. They just waylaid the competition for using in-line upright engines. All the while researching and developing a multi-cylinder of their own to be released in 1960. I believe the folks who frequent this site will recall I said the same thing several months ago about IH. Much like our current president, they knew what they were selling was misleading and the engine they were putting out wasn't going to work in the long term. But they have seen the light and I wish them all the best.

Thanks for the information, Fastback!

Bryan
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  2:44:08 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I witnessed the NAPT unveiling of the Cummins mounted in the IC chassis, definitely was quite the scene. Would've never bet money on that back in 2010. But hey, they did get it right now by offering it after the market dictated the engine was working very well.

My argument now is that buying based on the bus body, lifecycle cost, and product support should be paramount... now that the whole EGR/SCR thing is pretty much put to bed, except for those that will continue with MF7 or MFDT. It will be interesting to see if the market moves towards bus body costs and total cost of ownership. Thomas is promoting their TCO calculators, and Blue Bird of course is going full court press with propane.

Edited by - RichBusman on 11/19/2013 2:55:16 PM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/19/2013 :  4:08:12 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

I witnessed the NAPT unveiling of the Cummins mounted in the IC chassis, definitely was quite the scene. Would've never bet money on that back in 2010. But hey, they did get it right now by offering it after the market dictated the engine was working very well.

My argument now is that buying based on the bus body, lifecycle cost, and product support should be paramount... now that the whole EGR/SCR thing is pretty much put to bed, except for those that will continue with MF7 or MFDT. It will be interesting to see if the market moves towards bus body costs and total cost of ownership. Thomas is promoting their TCO calculators, and Blue Bird of course is going full court press with propane.



Rich, it's interesting that you mention propane. Our board just authorized the purchase of our second propane bus. As most on here know, I am sold on propane. I'm not sure of the cost difference of a propane and diesel at this point but the gap is narrowing, and I mean narrowing! It's time everyone thinks outside the box. I'm telling you if you normally are purchasing 2-3 or more buses contact your propane dealer to see what kind of deal they will cut you. Most large companies will set up the equipment and put it in the cost of the fuel.

That being said, I agree with your statement about body construction and service. Really, the service part has been in play for some time. That's the entire reason Fastback and others have IC in their blood and the reason I have Bird in mine. You want to go where they give you service!

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2013 :  05:10:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest



I'm not sure of the cost difference of a propane and diesel at this point but the gap is narrowing, and I mean narrowing!




Actual current bus bid shows the propane option on a Bluebird Vision as being a $10,261 upcharge over a 200 horsepower Cummins, that price includes a 93 gallon tank and necessary 23,000 lb. rear axle to give similar range to the diesel with a 65 gallon tank, if you can settle for the 67.5 gallon propane tank, subtract $1340.
Last year the propane upcharge was in the $8500 range.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2013 :  05:17:37 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I still don't understand how it costs so much more money to buy a V10 propane engine and Ford automatic transmission instead of a Cummins diesel and Allison automatic, especially considering the aftertreatment devices on the diesel. My only guess is R&D costs or the fact that it's a fairly limited production scale compared to the Cummins/Allison combo in the grand scheme of things.

On the GM cutaway vehicles, the price difference is minimal between diesel and propane, while the difference from gas to propane is quite a bit.

Just last week I spoke with a school that operates a mix of Vision GM propane units and Vision Ford propane units, and they still can't get more than 3.8 MPG average. Cummins are over 8 MPG, and that is not even with the SCR system which improves MPG. Other districts I've spoken with are also in the 3-4 range. With the 50 cent tax credit no lock to go on forever, I think it's a big gamble if you're in a terrain that can't squeak out 5 MPG+ on the propane units.

Edited by - RichBusman on 11/20/2013 05:24:25 AM
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2013 :  05:34:14 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

I still don't understand how it costs so much more money to buy a V10 propane engine and Ford automatic transmission instead of a Cummins diesel and Allison automatic, especially considering the aftertreatment devices on the diesel. My only guess is R&D costs or the fact that it's a fairly limited production scale compared to the Cummins/Allison combo in the grand scheme of things.

On the GM cutaway vehicles, the price difference is minimal between diesel and propane, while the difference from gas to propane is quite a bit.

Just last week I spoke with a school that operates a mix of Vision GM propane units and Vision Ford propane units, and they still can't get more than 3.8 MPG average. Cummins are over 8 MPG, and that is not even with the SCR system which improves MPG. Other districts I've spoken with are also in the 3-4 range. With the 50 cent tax credit no lock to go on forever, I think it's a big gamble if you're in a terrain that can't squeak out 5 MPG+ on the propane units.



Two things: First, I can't disclose what we paid for the bus on this forum but I am telling you anyone remotely interested should look into it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Second, Everyone should be looking at cost per mile and total cost of ownership. This will look a lot better for district/ contractors that keep their units for 12 to 15 years like our district does. At this point it may not be for those who lease or only keep their unit until the new is worn off.

Bryan
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RichBusman
Advanced Member

451 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2013 :  05:41:05 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bwest

quote:
Originally posted by RichBusman

I still don't understand how it costs so much more money to buy a V10 propane engine and Ford automatic transmission instead of a Cummins diesel and Allison automatic, especially considering the aftertreatment devices on the diesel. My only guess is R&D costs or the fact that it's a fairly limited production scale compared to the Cummins/Allison combo in the grand scheme of things.

On the GM cutaway vehicles, the price difference is minimal between diesel and propane, while the difference from gas to propane is quite a bit.

Just last week I spoke with a school that operates a mix of Vision GM propane units and Vision Ford propane units, and they still can't get more than 3.8 MPG average. Cummins are over 8 MPG, and that is not even with the SCR system which improves MPG. Other districts I've spoken with are also in the 3-4 range. With the 50 cent tax credit no lock to go on forever, I think it's a big gamble if you're in a terrain that can't squeak out 5 MPG+ on the propane units.



Two things: First, I can't disclose what we paid for the bus on this forum but I am telling you anyone remotely interested should look into it. I think you will be pleasantly surprised.
Second, Everyone should be looking at cost per mile and total cost of ownership. This will look a lot better for district/ contractors that keep their units for 12 to 15 years like our district does. At this point it may not be for those who lease or only keep their unit until the new is worn off.



Here in NY there is a lot of reimbursement money available to cover the cost difference between diesel and propane. So the cost of admission upfront is essentially a non-factor.

I agree propane buses (just like any bus on the market) should be done on an individual basis and have the numbers and information to support your case.
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bluebirdvision
Top Member

USA
992 Posts

Posted - 11/20/2013 :  1:49:57 PM  Show Profile  Click to see bluebirdvision's MSN Messenger address  Reply with Quote
In New York both the Blue Bird and IC dealers provide great service after the sale. I have always preferred a BB tho, as most know.

I had the privilege to drive a Propane Roush unit, and I liked it very much. Propane is a viable option in my opinion. We have V10 fords in some E450 cutaways at work, which are severely under powered on any type of grade, but I am getting 7 mpg in the summertime with the A/C units cranking. They have given us zero problems in the year they have been on routes.

Shane Kirley
New York Bus Sales Delivery Driver. (I know its not much, but its a start)


Facebook Page: Blue Bird Corporation Fans
https://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=group_212311114614&ap=1


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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
338 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  08:18:00 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I was around for the last propane fad 20 some years ago.

Propane is still a nonrenewable hydrocarbon that is produced using some pretty environmentally unfriendly processes.

Kind of like saying that electric is a green fuel while ignoring the fact that electricity is largely produced by burning coal.

Sure it is an option... I'm just not sold it is a better option, all things considered.

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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  08:37:38 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
We are going way off topic here, lol, but I have had it explained this way and it makes sense. Lets imagine that the industry (bus, truck, auto) has been using propane up to this point in history. I come into your office and say "I've got a new kind of fuel called diesel. It burns really dirty and we get it from some foreign countries that don't like us very well. When we make this into a very large industry they will be using that money to kill our troops and undermine our interests elsewhere." You'd throw me, or anyone else, out of you office with a proposal like that.

Bryan
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  08:57:03 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Maybe if the industry was all using propane there would be no subsidies to promote it and we would be looking at Cummins clean diesel power in IC buses (shameless attempt to get back on topic) or any other bus so we could double our fuel mileage and range between fuel ups.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 11/21/2013 09:02:12 AM
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
338 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  09:15:50 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
What was the topic again haha

About 1/2 of all propane comes from the crude oil you refer to above. And the other half comes increasingly from fracking.

The troops comment... that's a stretch.

Propane is a fad.

That's my take. I could be 100% wrong. Time will tell.
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second.flood
Advanced Member

USA
338 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  09:22:45 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I finally made a decision, we advertised for new buses and made the change to Cummins.

I just could not see continuing with Navistar. After 20+ years of only using International engines... the effort by them to reconcile numerous issue is/was pretty pathetic.

I just hope I'm not trading one set of problems for another.
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bwest
Administrator

United States
2251 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  2:23:44 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Fastback

Maybe if the industry was all using propane there would be no subsidies to promote it and we would be looking at Cummins clean diesel power in IC buses (shameless attempt to get back on topic) or any other bus so we could double our fuel mileage and range between fuel ups.



Well, I agree that the subsidies need to be cut but sometimes that's what it takes when the oil & auto industries are being subsidized too. If the government would just get out of all this it would seek a level and be fine but they are forever playing both sides of things and messing it up. AS for your comment about range and fuel mileage, don't forget the BB has a 93 fillable gallons tank and we are talking COA here not miles per gallon. Miles per gallon are irrelevant.

Bryan
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Carp_26
Administrator

United States
160 Posts

Posted - 11/21/2013 :  4:27:56 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
second.flood are you buying IC with the Cummins option? I had the chance to view and drive the Lion demo here in Ohio yesterday. That bus is very impressive. I can certainly see our district seriously looking to Lion as a purchase option in the future.
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Fastback
Top Member

949 Posts

Posted - 11/22/2013 :  04:39:24 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
If range and mpg weren't relevant, I wouldn't have any buses with 100 gallon diesel tanks.

Why yes, the ORIGinal CHARGER is a Fastback

Edited by - Fastback on 11/22/2013 04:39:51 AM
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